Topic: Nintendo's Strategy is Paying Off

[Gamer Donkey]

Sorry, I should not of singled out Cubedcanuck. I don't see the point of this argument and just mentioned him because he doesn't share my opinions. Again, I apologize.

[Dolphin64X]

If you want to worry about getting off topic, let's get it back on.  What is Nintendo doing right, as for getting exclusive third-party content?  What are they doing wrong?  And what is their chance in the next generation, especially if all the old companies back them?

Personally, I see it going great for the acquisition of third party support.  The American support be not be there, and may never be for the GameCube, but it's adeqaute.  The Japanese support, however, looks great.  GameCube owners are getting unique and interesting titles all the time.  Sure many more go to the PlayStation 2, but it's understandable giving the installed base.

Doing wrong?  I'd only say they were doing wrong by not created more development teams.  Put the money back into the games!  It's an investment for the future, really.  And after seeing what Retro Studios is capable of, I'd like to see more similar ventures.

Next generation things could go either way.  If Nintendo launches on time, and with true support from the "old-school" of gaming; Namco, Capcom, Konami, Square-Enix, (as I currently see Japanese developers joining with Nintendo), then things could be different.  On the other hand, even that may not be enough to make it past the glitz and hype of the next system's from Sony and Microsoft.  It can't be called at the moment.  If, however, Nintendo comes late once again to the table, then they may not even see the sales of the GameCube.  Of course they won't give up and nor will their fans, but we may see only token support from the major third parties.  If Nintendo can't put up a timely showing with their new system, then they may lose all momentum and be forever a small player, one of the only supporters of its hardware.

I don't even want to think about what would happen if Sony or Microsoft tried to enter the handheld market.

And Super Mario Sunshine was not considered bad, it was merely considered disapointing by some.  That doesn't include me-it was perfectly difficult, I thought.

[thecubedcanuck]

Did everyone read the new artical on PGC?

All I can say is ouch.

[KrazyJ1098]

i dont really care about that demographic anyway. teenagers are kinda dumb this day and age(THIS IS ONLY A GENERALIZATION SO DONT FLAME ME, I DIDNT MEAN YOU GUYS!).  they buy into hype and thats it. like i said before in other threads, nintendo is selling cubes left and right. it may not be the extent of sony, but they are making money off of their stuff. dont worry guys. it will be okay.

[Duriez]

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Originally posted by: thecubedcanuck
All I can say is ouch.

Why?  Did it offend you or something?  I always take articles like that with a grain of salt.  You didn't take it to seriously did you?

[Dolphin64X]

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"Our survey results clearly show that the youth gamers driving this market are most interested in higher quality games and greater variety," said David Edwards, CEO and founder of Zanthus

Give me a break.  Interested in higher quality games, yet dismissing Nintendo as "kiddy?"  Interested in greater variety, yet only fueling demand for so-called mature games?  If people continue to buy these games, publishers will continue to focus on them.  We're already seeing a much greater ratio of M and T rated games to E rated games then we were two years ago.  I'm not saying this is in itself a bad thing, but it is when companies make a game bloody to get a higher rating and earn more sales.

As for Nintendo marketing their mature games, I feel the same as Rick on this one.  I greatly respect Nintendo for refusing to market their products to unsuitable audiences, but it frustrates me that their competitors have no qualms of doing this.  Nintendo just won't compete with their illegal tactics, and unfortunately it's hurting sales.

The attitude by the teens is just the kind of attitude that hurts the industry.  It fosters not good games but cool games, style over substance, and denies the chance for games which would easily appeal to them (i.e. Metroid Prime) from achieving the popularity they deserve.  Unfortunately I don't know what can change this, other than Nintendo marketing mature products to kids, which I really don't want to see happen.

I hope that in other countries image does not matter as much.  Perhaps then the next home console will get a chance to succeed.

[thecubedcanuck]

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Nintendo just won't compete with their illegal tactics, and unfortunately it's hurting sales.

What is so illegal about it? Infact that statement is borderline libelous. No kidding its hurting sales, the public says it wants one thing and Nintendo insists on delivering another. Now why would that produce anything other than poor sales?

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The attitude by the teens is just the kind of attitude that hurts the industry.

I suppose that is why the gaming industry is growing quicker than any other sector of entertainment. Why it has passed hollywood in $$$ made. Yep, the industry sure is hurting. Or could it be that it simply isnt going in the direction you want it to, meaning that YOU are in the MINORITY?

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and denies the chance for games which would easily appeal to them (i.e. Metroid Prime) from achieving the popularity they deserve.

Please tell me why you think it DESERVES to be popular? Is it because YOU like it? It is a game, it doesnt deserve anything.

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I hope that in other countries image does not matter as much. Perhaps then the next home console will get a chance to succeed.

Image matters everywhere and America is the main reason for this. As for the next console, give the MAJORITY of people what they want and it will sell, or continue to market your product to the MINORITY and wonder what went wrong. It is simple economics.

[Dolphin64X]

Please, cubedcanuck, I can refute these in my sleep.

Congress has gotten on game companies' backs for advertising mature titles to children.  It's one of the reasons the ESRB was formed.

I've said many, many times that the industry will be hurting from a creative standpoint, as a dearth of unoriginal and over-hyped titles flood the market.  Remember, it's what killed the industry in 1983.

Read the reviews for Metroid Prime.  I'll give you some help: GameRankings.com: Metroid Prime.   Ask people on the forums what they think of it.  It is almost a consensus: Metroid Prime is not only good, but freakin' awesome.

As for your last point, that one is worthy of some consideration.  Yes, it is true that Sony and Microsoft are aiming for the largest consumer group in America, and doing well because of it.  Yet the groups Nintendo is aiming for, the groups that would accept its games, aren't becuase of image.  What does that have to do with competition?  If capitalism forces companies to make glitzy, shallow titles, much as how most of Hollywood operates, then it is not doing its job.  Theoretically, capitalism forces companies to make better products to compete.  In a creative format, however, where 'better' is subjective, it often turns to companies making "cooler" products.  I don't think that capitalism is infallible, certainly not in a market involving creativity.  

Logically, there is no alternative (you can't force people to buy good games).  However, it is incredibly frustrating to see it fail so miserably.  Nintendo makes the best products, right? (I don't even want to hear it this time, cubedcanuck).  Then why don't they sell better?  Image should not control the market, but it is.  But unfortunately there is nothing we can do about it-for it seems that good games will not change the mind of the general populace, not while it remains ignorant to truly good games.

Note: Yes, Grand Theft Auto 3 was good.  I'm not arguing that.  But as Denis Dyack said, it wasn't that good.  Not revolutionary-sell-8-million-copies-and-be-a-cultural-phenomenon-good.  Okay?  

[thecubedcanuck]

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Congress has gotten on game companies' backs for advertising mature titles to children. It's one of the reasons the ESRB was formed

Yes, but that doesnt make it "ILLEGAL", it is simply a rating system nothing more nothing less.

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I've said many, many times that the industry will be hurting from a creative standpoint, as a dearth of unoriginal and over-hyped titles flood the market. Remember, it's what killed the industry in 1983.

I dont think its hurting at all, from any standpoint, even a creative one. There a boatload of great games on all systems that are quite creative. As with any booming industry you will have a flood of "inferior" product as companies try to cash in on the boom. You will also see another crash in the gaming industry in time, regardless of the quality and originality of the products. It is just the nature of the cyclical entertainment industry.

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Read the reviews for Metroid Prime. I'll give you some help: GameRankings.com: Metroid Prime. Ask people on the forums what they think of it. It is almost a consensus: Metroid Prime is not only good, but freakin' awesome.

That still doesnt mean it "DESERVES" to sell well, there are a ton of "GREAT" products on the market that sell like crap. Just because something is good doesnt mean it will have mass appeal. I thought the game was very good, I wouldnt say awesome however. Besides reviews are simply opinions and I am betting that less that 10% of all people who buy games even read or realize for that matter that reviews for games even exist.

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Yet the groups Nintendo is aiming for, the groups that would accept its games, aren't becuase of image. What does that have to do with competition?

I dont buy that for a minute. Nintendo does and is trying to portray an image, an image of family friendly entertainment, right? Isnt this what everyone says? So tell me then why are games like GTA 3 acceptable on the Gameboy? Do Nintendo's ethics and morality stop at the cube? Nintendo cant beat the compitition in the console market, so they try and hit a differant target, hence the childrens market. But with the gameboy anything seems to go because they are the leaders. Isnt this a bit hypocritical?

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If capitalism forces companies to make glitzy, shallow titles, much as how most of Hollywood operates, then it is not doing its job.

It is not capitalisms job to do anything. Capitalism gives the peopel the choice, in both what they make and buy. People are buying glitz because they want to, and companies will make it as long as it sells, not because anyone is being forced to.

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Theoretically, capitalism forces companies to make better products to compete. In a creative format, however, where 'better' is subjective, it often turns to companies making "cooler" products.

They make "cooler" products because that is what the "people" want. This means capitalism is working and well in fact. In the case of video games, cool may very well mean better to many, and there really is nothing wrong with that. If companies stopped making games that sold because they were cool and instead only made games that didnt appeal and didnt sell but were "better" in a few eyes, how would this be better? It would only speed up the demise of the industry because sales would dry up.

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I don't think that capitalism is infallible, certainly not in a market involving creativity.

I suppose this is why we see such a huge number of great creative games coming out of Iraq, China and N. Korea?

[Dolphin64X]

Thank you, cubedcanuck, for honestly stating your opinion.  

That said, I am positive that Congress investigated the videogame, music, and movie industries no more than a few years ago for advertising mature products to minors.  Perhaps illegal was the wrong term, but I know that they aren't supposed to do it.  Can anyone back me up on this one?  Anyway, Nintendo takes the high road and doesn't advertise inappropriately, while other companies do.  This just plain stinks, as Nintendo is getting hurt by being the good guy.

And yes, there are a great amount of games on all platforms that are creative.  I'm happy with current selections.  But as every year passes it seems to me that the industry turns more and more to sequels and copies, and less to knew and original ideas.  And I sure don't remember crashes in the music and movie businesses, but if it keeps happening to the games industry, well that will be a scary thing.  Perhaps, though, it will be good, a cleansing fire to wipe out and start over again.  I just hope the situation never becomes that dire.

And why shouldn't Metroid Prime have mass appeal?  Great game, cool hero (certainly cooler than Master Chief), and a game with a slick sense of style and beautiful graphics.  People aren't buying it becuase it's a GameCube game, which is associated with "kiddy" games.  Is that a good reason to not buy it?

And I suppose you are true when you say that "cool" is what people want.  It just frustrates me when people want cool over good.  I suppose I can't do anything about it, but it still doesn't seem right.  

And yeah, that crack was kinda funny (but you have to remember they don't have videogames to buy in the first place).  

Really, what I'm bothered about with image is not for certain games, it's for the entire console.  Becuase of the image of Nintendo, in the minds of the ignorant this extends towards all games on the system.  However a game like Metroid Prime (perhaps not Eternal Darkness, being somewhat ahead of its time) is overlooked by these buyers, when I know it would be a game they would buy.  Think about it: it has similar properties to Grand Theft Auto 3: stylish, good, intelligent.  Think how much it could sell!  But it doesn't, because of image.  If image is truly what people want to buy into, then why can't they buy into Metroid Prime?  

Luckily the game developers seem to be turning to Nintendo.  I am very pleased with all the ties being formed between Mr. Miyamoto and his peers at other companies.  If he can win their support, then the tides may just change.  I fear it is too late to make a comeback with the GameCube.  While not a failure, it will never live up to its true potential-that of an incredible, popular games system (i.e. SNES).  Maybe, just maybe, the slate will be clear in the next round, so that Nintendo can fight back for more than a third place finish.  

[Dolphin64X]

Looks like we can add EA to the list of "Nintendo's Friends."  While EA is quite obviously pragmatic, Nintendo helping them create exclusive features for GameCube games is a great step.  Though EA would never support Nintendo solely (or for that matter give it a first-port), any help is appreciated.  Keep up the good work, Nintendo!  

Nintendo, though you may be fighting against popular opinion that you are a loser company for babies, and no amount of exclusive content will change that, at least you can go on with the satisfaction of a full bank account.    

[Luc]

Dolphin64x, while I do agree with your post to some certain extent, I think you are really "over-playing" the third party support.  For instance,

Konami: Many of the games you mentioned are multiplatform (i.e. Metal Gear Solid, TMNT).  Where's the exclusive love from Konami?  The PS2 exclusive library includes: Gradius V (Treasure developed), Silent Hill 3, Castlevania, DDR Max 1 & 2, Zone of the Enders: The 2nd Runner, etc.  

Squaresoft:  One game (FF:CC) does not equate "great" support for the GC, dont-cha think?  FFXII is PS2 exclusive and the interview with Matsuno and Miyamoto was nothing more than a rumor.

Enix: Why even bother listing Enix since 80% of their resources are being supplied for the PS2.  (Star Ocean 3, Drag-on Dragoon, Dragon Quest VIII, etc.)

Capcom:  I definetly agree that Capcom is supporting the GCN with great games such as the Capcom 5.    However, Capcom is also suppporting other consoles with "new franchises" such as Steel Battalion (Xbox), Chaos Legion (PS2), Auto Modellista (PS2), Glass Rose (PS2), Gregory Horror Show (PS2).  Oh and the GCN is not the only console receiving a Mega Man title, the PS2 gets Mega Man X7.

Sega:  Overworks, Am2, and Sonic Team loyal to the GCN?  I'm sorry Dolphin64X, but Overworks did develop Shinobi (PS2) and are developing 5 exclusive Sakura Taisen (some are remakes, however) titles for the PS2.  Am2 developed Virtua Fighter 4 & Evolution (PS2), King of Route 66 (PS2), Aero Elite: Combat Academy (PS2).  Sonic Team's own, Yuji Naka, stated in an interview that his team is developing one new title for the PS2.  Some have speculated that this title will probably star Astro Boy of Osamu Tezuka's fame.  The titles I listed highly make these team "loyal" to the GCN console.

Namco: Namco's GCN line-up pretty much kick A$$ with titles that include (not listing multiplatform titles) Star Fox Armada, Tales of Symphonia, and Baiten Kaitos.  The PS2 gets (not listing multiplatform titles) Venus and Braves, Tales of Destiny 2, Xenosaga, and Ace Combat 5.
 

[thecubedcanuck]

Dolphin

It is real nice to see someone who can have a discussion without resorting to name calling and obsenity, very rare now a days.
If everyone followed these principals I can only imagine how interesting these threads would become.

I do understand your point of view for what its worth, I was simply busting your balls for the sake of good conversation.

The one thing I do not fully understand however is everyones obsession with Metroid. I admit the game was quite good, but I just didnt find it to be as good as everyone thinks. I thought the intro was brutal in fact, it looked so damn corny. The in game graphics were good but nothing spectacular, the sound did kick ass though. I just found all the scanning and slow pace to get tiresome. I am very close to finishing Metroid (finally), it took me forever because I had trouble playing it for any lenght of time due to boredom. Where as RE I blew through almost non stop. Please dont bite my head off here, but in all honesty, and i do mean this, I prefer to play Tiger Woods 2003 over it. I can almost here the gasping from here.

On a side note, I picked up a used Eternal Darkness at lunch for $15 canadian, even had the instructions still. Maybe now I can finish it as well.

Cheers.

[The Omen]

  My friend has the same opinion as you, thecubedcanuck.  It seems Metrioid is a -love it or its not your cup of brew- type of game.  I personally loved the feeling of isolation it gives you.  I even enjoyed reading all of my scans.  But i can also see its not for everyone.  Are you playing with the hint mode on or off?  I would recommend playing with it on. If its getting too boring, that'll speed things up.  Tiger Woods is great, by the way.

[Dolphin64X]

Ah, the scanning.  Yeah, I heard some people hated that.  Personally, I loved it.  I seriously do crazy things to get all ounces of text out of a game.  In an RPG, I usually come back to towns after most every story event, to see if people say anything different.  I remember this one time, in Skies Of Arcadia Legends...
...Anyway, long story short, I took two hours to find absolutely nothing.  Yay!

[The Omen]

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In an RPG, I usually come back to towns after most every story event, to see if people say anything different.

Thats obsessive behavior.  That being said, I do that all the time!

[Hemmorrhoid]

What a boring world this would be if everyone loved Metroid, or GTA, or Halo.
I think its great that people arent actually 'ALL NINTENDO' in their perspective. While
I only own  GCN and see it as the best console I am very clear of the fact that Xbox and PS2 also have their strength, which makes
them attractive, but due to cost reasons, not attractive enough (yet) to be bought over GCN games.
Once I get a job, ill get all 3 systems.

[digitalshogun]

The only real problem with the Nintendo strategy is that they don't want to release too many high profile games. They have always felt this drives up demand for the games. This was true back in the 8bit days and to some extent in the 16bit days. However with Nintendo being in third place in market share in North America it is imperative that they get a large number of games out for all the respective video game genres. Nintendo is not even covering some of them at all. Realistic aerial combat? Dance games? Light guns? Nope. Nintendo has to release some super fun different games for cheap.

If nintendo wants to do better, they need a nextgen Duck Hunt bundle!

[Dolphin64X]

Could you clarify what you mean by "high profile games?"

Because they sure got right to work on Mario, Zelda, and Metroid with the GameCube, and that's about as high-profile as it gets.  The only problem is that these games take time, and people also beg them to work on things other than sequels.  

But, yeah, a Miyamoto rythm game would probably be sweet.  

[Dolphin64X]

Seeing as this is wrapping up, I figure it's time for the obligatory Thank-You-For-Helping-Me-Beat-A-Dead-Horse-Into-The-Ground:

Cubedcanuck, I couldn't have done it without you.  Really.