Topic: Rumour: Nunchuck to have Dual 3D motion sensing

[wandering]

I don't think we know if the sensor on the remote can actually pick up what is on the tv screen...I think Nintendo has tried to imply that it can, but I also agree that it would be more likely that everything is done with the sensor bar.

Anyway, as far as the thing in the nunchaku goes, I'm  going to guess that it can sense tilting and maybe movement, but not absolute location. For example, if you moved the revmote...wiimote one inch to the left, and held it there, the rev...wii would know. But if you did the same with the nunchaku, it might know that you moved it to the left, but that's as much as it knows. So you couldn't use the nunchaku to control a cursor on the screen, or at least not very well.

[Ceric]

Yeah, if the Nunchuku only sense acceleration then it would know you moved it left and the only reason it would stay that way is because it knows you have significantly moved it in anyother direction.

Also about the wire issue.  From my recollection most of the working Controller prototypes out there are wired.  The wireless ones are coming with last few iterations of the developer kits.  I personally don't see the wireless being able to do squat without the the sensor bar.  It just doesn't make since to not use the thing as the antenna for the whole system.

[BigJim]

If you had to calibrate your position to the TV, that would mean you would also have to sit in the same exact location and hold the controller the exact same way every time you played so the controller would always be accurate in 3D space. Fixed positioning doesn't work.

The only consistency is the direct interaction with the sensor bars. They work through relative positioning.



My l33t artwork.

You start at a "home" position, and through triangulation your motion is detected from there. The remote interacts with the sensors at hundreds if not thousands of times per second to maintain consistant positioning data. There is no actual, physical pointing at the TV although you may do that anyway NATURALLY.

If you can't grasp it, think of a computer mouse playing a PC game. You move it up/down/left/right/diagonal. You don't actually point it at the monitor to make the cursor move in the direction you tell it to. Revolution is more advanced since it detects 3D movement and doesn't use optical lasers or balls like mice do, but the result is similar.    

[AnyoneEB]

Quote
If you had to calibrate your position to the TV, that would mean you would also have to sit in the same exact location and hold the controller the exact same way every time you played so the controller would always be accurate in 3D space. Fixed positioning doesn't work.

The only consistency is the direct interaction with the sensor bars. They work through relative positioning.

I think we are agreeing here, but using the sensors like that would be absolute positioning. (Well, I guess it is relative to the sensor bars, but we are assuming the position of the sensor bars is known.) Relative positioning would mean just assuming that whereever the revmote starts is its zero-point. By calibrating, I mean the sensor bars need to know where they are. This could be accomplished in any number of ways, but to be used as a pointer as has been described, it would have to be done. As in your picture, simply placing them properly may be enough calibration. Or, I guess you are suggesting calibrating by having the game assume the revmote is pointing at the center of the screen to start.

(Just a note: you need 4 sensors for absolute positioning in 3-dimentional space. Imagine a sphere around each sensor; where all the spheres intersect is the guessed location of the object (the revmote, in this case). With two sensors, you get a circle in the air. With three you get one point where the revmote is and another in the mirror location behind the TV, which is good enough. If you are familiar with GPS, you may know that you need communications with a minimum of three satellites for positioning.)

Of course, the whole point will be moot rather soon, once we know the actually capabilities of the system and how it works, which we will know by launch if not from E3.  

[trip1eX]

I feel like a broken record.  But folks that have tried the controller would seem to disagree with many of you that haven't.

1up.com 9/15/05


"DEMO: BLOCK BUSTER
A firing-range-like contest where two players compete to see who can shoot randomly appearing squares first. Aiming is done by pointing the controller itself at different points on screen, pulling the B trigger to fire.

IMPRESSIONS: A great demonstration of how intuitive the controller can be-pointing it to aim felt perfectly natural, right from the very first second, just like with a light gun. It always shot exactly where it felt like I was aiming, and was incredibly responsive to even slight wrist movements-I barely had to move my hand at all."


GI Red Steel Ubisoft interview

"Aiming with the controller is as simple as using a laser pointer. You point your hand at a target and hit the trigger on the underside of the controller to fire "

[wandering]

Quote
It always shot exactly where it felt like I was aiming, and was incredibly responsive to even slight wrist movements-I barely had to move my hand at all."

The fact that he felt it was sensitive to slight wrist movements kind of indicates it doesn't, actually, work like a lightgun tho...

[trip1eX]

Alot of this info dates back to last September.  So again I'm not sure if some of you all are just joining the party now or have forgotten and can't google up information in 2 seconds.  

Interview with Nintendo of Europe

"Is the motion-sensing aspect of the controller going to be compatible with all Revolution games?

Like the Nintendo DS, which offers many different input devices such as voice and touch-screen, not every game is going to use every capability of the controller. The Revolution controller can sense not only where you're pointing, but where your relative position front to back, how close you are, whether you're tilting or rolling - it senses all of these things. Those may or may not be appropriate for different games, so there's no absolute requirement that all games should use it.

The current controller design does work reasonably well for certain types of game - we're not going to throw it all out, but we wanted a fresh start and a fresh way of thinking to bring new consumers to the console."

http://www.dsrevolution.com/article.php?articleid=657

[trip1eX]

Quote
Originally posted by: wandering

Quote
It always shot exactly where it felt like I was aiming, and was incredibly responsive to even slight wrist movements-I barely had to move my hand at all."

The fact that he felt it was sensitive to slight wrist movements kind of indicates it doesn't, actually, work like a lightgun tho...

No a light gun would work the same way in that you could hold it in your lap and makes slight movements to aim at different points on the screen.  Of course this isn't practical with a light gun because it's not really meant to be held in such a manner.  It's shaped like a gun afterall.  



 

[BigJim]

How would the sensor bars know where you were "pointing" on the screen? I don't believe there's actual screen pointing happening. I think the "aiming" is just a simulation through the motion.

[trip1eX]

SEnsor bar is only one part of the story.  The sensor bar tells you 3d positioning. The gyro sensors tell you how the controller is pointed.  Put the two together and it determines where you are aiming on the screen.  Of course they have to somehow calibrate the location of the sensor bar to the location and size of your TV.  But a simple 4 corner calibration would do this.  

They've talked alot about pointing.  And the GI article says you point your hand at a target to aim.  I don't see how you explain that away unless it's actually sensing where you are pointing.  

[Kairon]

What I want to know is what is with the IR window? Is that really just to turn the Rev off from far away? That seems completely unnecerssary?

Why is it called the "Direct Pointer Device?" Does that imply that there may be functionaility which would require clear line-of-sight to the TV? With the motion-sensor 3D space technology as I understand it, you don't need a line-of-sight to the tv to have the Wii know where the controller is. ... Or can IR technology be used to triangulate pointing position? How did the Super Scope determine pointing, did it use pixel capture lightgun technology?

Or maybe there's nothing to this at all... blargh!

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Jensen]

Quote
Originally posted by: trip1eX
SEnsor bar is only one part of the story.  The sensor bar tells you 3d positioning. The gyro sensors tell you how the controller is pointed.  Put the two together and it determines where you are aiming on the screen.  Of course they have to somehow calibrate the location of the sensor bar to the location and size of your TV.  But a simple 4 corner calibration would do this.  

They've talked alot about pointing.  And the GI article says you point your hand at a target to aim.  I don't see how you explain that away unless it's actually sensing where you are pointing.

The Gyration air-mouse allows you to "point". That doesn't mean that if you put gun sights on the mouse, they would line up exactly with where the cursor is on the screen.

The only time the sensor bar would be needed for "pointing" is if you want to make a lightgun style game with no cursor on the screen.  

[BigJim]

Well we know typical light gun technology is out. Aside from only working with CRTs, they use blasts of color and not constant streams.

Someone would have mentioned a 4-corner system by now if that were being used. It's not all that simple either. Such a setup would have wires running all over the place and goes counter to their "controller intimidation" efforts.

For all intents and purposes, we only know of the 2 bars. It's much easier to have mouse-like pointing if the game uses a cursor/crosshair.

[AnyoneEB]

That's a very good question Kairon. It makes no sense for the revmote to have IR on it. There is no reason to not just make the power button RF like the rest of the revmote. It sounds to me like line of sight won't matter for the revmote, although, of course, enough interference could block the signal. 2 sensor bars + rev for the third would be enough for positioning + gyro in revmote for angles would allow for pointing. If you are not pointing to a specific place on the TV, absolute positioning is meaningless and the sensor bars are worthless. Well, not entirely, I suppose games could make use of absolute positioning for the positions of the revmotes relative to each other. I cannot think of any relevant game designs, but it sounds like something that would come up in a Mario Party minigame.

[Ceric]

Universal remote.  I wouldn't be surprised if Nintendo was kicking ideas and went "You know I hate to get to turn my console on and off" that logically went to not wenting to use more then 1 remote.  IR is cheap and the codes could be store in the Rev.  So why not incomparate it.  The ultimate in lazy.  Programmed from you Wii and one button press turns on you tv, sound system, sets it to the right channel on the reciever and TV, and then turns your Wii on.  That would be excellent and explain the IR.

[nemo_83]

So the name Wii is so bad I have to go looking in the second page for this topic?  Did the discussion of the nunchuck's super powers move to another thread?

This would have been the biggest story of the year up until now, but you know.

[Strell]

Nemo, I am going to give you the same proposal I gave to Ian.

I send you 10 bucks, you don't buy a Wii.

It will be 10 bucks well spent.

[nemo_83]

Sorry, I'll be buying a Revolution, I mean Wii and 360 despite the fact they are in a contest for worse name ever.

The question this nunchuck thing raises is, is it the "big" secret?  The name Wii suggests there is something more; something involving two eyes.

[Artimus]

It's not a lightgun. Read the interview with the Madden guy @IGN and you'll see they have to program a ton of stuff for the controller. A lightgun you wouldn't have too.

[MaryJane]

I couldn't find the interview but some dude basically said, if you think the 3d motion sensing in the nunchuck is the last secret you're going to be blown away. or something to that degree.

and uh... so what if direct line of sight to the t.v is necessary, what would you have in the way when you're playing video games? i can't think of a single thing. i used to have my room set up that my t.v was on the same level as my bed and often a blanket or something would block the bottom of the screen... so i would move it. not a big deal.

i'm going to guess that the nunchuck sensing is different from the wiimotes pointing. the nunchuck from early pics doesn't have that (i can't think of the name now) window at the front where the signal goes through. i assume that the movements of the nunchuck are standard. for instance: in madden you use the nunchuck to juke by moving it left or right, what i'm saying is if you move it up first and then right, you still juke to the right, where you're pointing it makes no difference. as opposed to the wiimote, (i know they haven't said they implemented this but bear with me) where if you point to a spot on the field to throw to, if you move the wiimote off that spot where you throw the ball changes. i could be wrong, but hey so could you

[AnyoneEB]

Artimus: Yeah, it has been mentioned a few times that it is not a light gun. A few people on this forum have pointed out that light guns only work with CRTs, anyway, so they wouldn't work with a lot of TVs. On the other hand, it seems like light-gun style pointing is one (simple) application of its sensing abilities.

MaryJane: I remember that, too; I think it was on 1up.

I do not think the IR on the revmote has to do with the motion sensing. The I/O is supposed to be done over RF like the WaveBird, so it does not have to be visible on the outside. I think Ceric's universal remote theory makes sense.

[UltimatePartyBear]

The IR could also be for the DVD playback function, but do we even know for sure that window is for an IR emitter?

[Ceric]

We don't.  But traditionally speaking it would be an IR window.  If it isn't then it would have to be something else optical to need it and I don't see a use for a laser.  I'm also wondering if Nintendo will be giving developers canned packages to do things like getting the relative position and of the controller and translating it to screen coordinates.  That would speed developement and let you get games out faster.

[BigJim]

Didn't Merrick say that the controller worked by bluetooth? I'm almost positive he did.

I don't know what kind of bandwidth IR is capable of, but there's a good deal of bandwidth needed for this controller... button I/O, position data, tilt data, 2-way signal for the rumble, and anything else that an optional accessory, such as a microphone, would require.

Anyway, much of this works in a constant stream of 2-way data exchange. Something a little more intense, like bluetooth, sounds much more realistic. A good line of sight isn't necessary for BT but it helps.

[Kairon]

I'm just baffled that when we have this thick data pipeline like bluetooth that can handle all that controller input, we need an IR window at ALL, let alone need it for anything pedantic.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com