Author Topic: GDC Iwataton Speech Thread (Read 61033 times)

Ian Sane · « **Reply #50 on:** March 22, 2006, 07:31:35 AM »

"What better way to drive home the mentality that graphics aren't everything by getting software out quickly that has, at best, slightly better GC graphics, but uses the Revmote and plays really well?"

Why would you want to drive home that mentality? People like graphics and they're never not going to. They would just assume the Rev was grossly underpowered. If anything it would be better to deliver really great looking games to show that even with "inferior" hardware and without full dev kits, Rev games still look as good as X360 games at a fraction of the cost. Cheaper console, cheaper games, new gameplay possibilties, yet with comparable graphics. One thing that really blew me away with the Cube was that Rogue Leader looked that good and was only worked on for like a year.

Strell · « **Reply #51 on:** March 22, 2006, 07:43:38 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane

Why would you want to drive home that mentality?

Again, two reasons.

1) If they didn't, people like you would complain about how "OMFG WHY ARE THEY WASTING TIME ON DEVELOPING BETTER GRAPHICS WHEN THEY KEEP TELLING US GRAPHICS DON'T MATTER?"

2) Graphics don't matter. If you took someone who didn't play games much and showed them Kameo versus Resident Evil 4, I highly doubt they'd be able to notice much of a difference.

The graphics will be upper echelon Gamecube quality, which, right now, is easily comparable to 360 and beyond.

Arbok · « **Reply #52 on:** March 22, 2006, 07:53:11 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Strell
Graphics don't matter. If you took someone who didn't play games much and showed them Kameo versus Resident Evil 4, I highly doubt they'd be able to notice much of a difference.

Both right and wrong. If you compare those two, most won't notice, but if you tell them your console isn't able to push out great graphics then consumers will go in with that perception and it will become a self fulfilling prophecy where they think the graphics are in fact inferior, even if the difference is minimal.

Hostile Creation · « **Reply #53 on:** March 22, 2006, 07:56:34 AM »

Because, I mean, the DS is kinda tromping the PSP right now. In case you've forgotten. And PS2, the most underpowered of the current generation systems, has sold by far the most systems.

Strell · « **Reply #54 on:** March 22, 2006, 08:00:40 AM »

Actions speak louder than words, and end results always trump paper figures. Just like how all three consoles, when running at max power with good engines, are nearly indistinguishable, so will be the next generation.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #55 on:** March 22, 2006, 08:03:54 AM »

"Because, I mean, the DS is kinda tromping the PSP right now. In case you've forgotten. And PS2, the most underpowered of the current generation systems, has sold by far the most systems."

I don't recall Nintendo making a big deal about how the DS graphics didn't compare or Sony drawing attention to the fact that their console is the weakest.

Strive to make the best game you can within the time given and that includes the whole package. Don't intentionally skimp the graphics to prove a point that is just going to have a negative impact. Gameplay is more important but that's like a secret that only hardcore gamers know. It's not something that any sane console maker should draw attention to. Plus there's no rule saying that a great game can't have both good gameplay AND good graphics. Often the best games do.

Plus "gameplay over graphics" isn't the point of the Rev anyway. The point of the Rev is innovative games at an affordable price. If Nintendo felt they meet the price they're aiming for and include the remote with better graphic capabilities they would have.

Hostile Creation · « **Reply #56 on:** March 22, 2006, 09:09:40 AM »

Strell was wrong on that point. First off, I don't recall Nintendo ever saying that graphics aren't important. They've said the gameplay is more important, but they've always said that. Yes, with the DS, and the Cube, and whatever other system.

I don't think they should say "Hey, it's got bad graphics everyone, come and play!" That would be ridiculous. But if they release the system, and if the games look at least as good as the best Cube games (which I'm sure they would), the gameplay will be able to say a lot.
And, as always, the graphics on the console will constantly improve, perhaps at an even more drastic rate than usual. If people are playing GTA, they won't mind playing an awesome Rev game that doesn't look quite as good as Oblivion.

jasonditz · « **Reply #57 on:** March 22, 2006, 09:12:45 AM »

Indeed, sell the public what you have, not what you don't have and you think they wouldn't want even if you did.

If people really don't care about graphics, they don't need to be told, they already know that. Give them what they do care about: affordable system, great games, unique play control, online super smash bros.

UltimatePartyBear · « **Reply #58 on:** March 22, 2006, 09:16:05 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I don't recall Nintendo making a big deal about how the DS graphics didn't compare or Sony drawing attention to the fact that their console is the weakest.

That's funny. I could have sworn Nintendo was claiming that the Revolution's graphics will be comparable and that, just like with the DS, it was mostly forumgoers complaining that the graphics will be weak.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #59 on:** March 22, 2006, 09:22:57 AM »

"That's funny. I could have sworn Nintendo was claiming that the Revolution's graphics will be comparable and that, just like with the DS, it was mostly forumgoers complaining that the graphics will be weak."

They've downplayed graphics a few times. They certainly dodge the hardware capabilities question every time. And the DS graphics honestly isn't just forumers complaining. The DS graphics are noticably weaker than the PSP's. The DS graphics are still fine and good enough for a portable but it is quite a noticable difference.

thejeek · « **Reply #60 on:** March 22, 2006, 09:29:20 AM »

Quote
The DS graphics are noticably weaker than the PSP's. The DS graphics are still fine and good enough for a portable but it is quite a noticable difference.

The main problem with the DS graphics relative to the PSP seems to be the lack of any texture filtering - I think that's what I notice the most at least. Beyond that I don't notice a lot of difference and I play on both regularly.

-- jeek

UltimatePartyBear · « **Reply #61 on:** March 22, 2006, 09:40:32 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
They've downplayed graphics a few times. They certainly dodge the hardware capabilities question every time. And the DS graphics honestly isn't just forumers complaining. The DS graphics are noticably weaker than the PSP's. The DS graphics are still fine and good enough for a portable but it is quite a noticable difference.

I didn't mean for it to sound like I thought the DS's graphics were as good as the PSP's. I was trying to use the parallel you drew to the DS to show that Nintendo isn't disparaging their own hardware now anymore than they did then.

And you brought up precisely the right point when you said they dodge the hardware capabilities question. If the question didn't get asked, they wouldn't bring it up. It seemed that you were implying that Nintendo is making a big deal about having weaker hardware, when it looks to me like they'd rather not mention it at all.

vudu · « **Reply #62 on:** March 22, 2006, 10:17:49 AM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
They've downplayed graphics a few times. They certainly dodge the hardware capabilities question every time. And the DS graphics honestly isn't just forumers complaining. The DS graphics are noticably weaker than the PSP's. The DS graphics are still fine and good enough for a portable but it is quite a noticable difference.

Think of it this way ... if the Revolution has comparable graphics to Xbox 360 or PS3 there's little reason for a current Xbox/PS2 owner to switch to a Nintendo console next generation. "Hey, we have the same thing as the next gen version of your current console!" doesn't really give someone a good reason to switch.

If Nintendo maintains the status quo, there's no incentive to switch to them. In order to gain market share, they need to offer something that the competition doesn't--namely, a new way to interact with your game via the controller.

However, if they try to give both messages (Hey, we have the same thing as the next gen version of your current console plus we have a super new controller that will knock your socks off!) the diluted message confuses potential customers. If you try to iterate too many messages at once they become convoluted and it doesn't differentiate you from the crowd. So Nintendo has decided to focus on the positive aspect (the controller that will knock your socks off) and leave the rest to the consumer to find out after researching the system once they've gotten his attention.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #63 on:** March 22, 2006, 11:06:36 AM »

"Hey, we have the same thing as the next gen version of your current console plus we have a super new controller that will knock your socks off"

I think that's an AWESOME message to give. "We've got everything PLUS MORE!" It's fantastic. No one would be confused by that. That means the Rev is BETTER than the competition.

I like it far more than "We're different. Not necessarily better but different." That's wishy-washy. If something's just different then you're making people choose. It suggests that the Rev is incapable of doing the things the competition can and it should be able to do most of those things (I hope). But if it has something extra then there's no choice. The Revolution seems like the best choice because you're not missing out on anything if you get it while at the same time you gain something you can't get anywhere else.

Nintendo should not draw any attention to anything that the X360 or PS3 is capable of but the Rev isn't. If the Rev has comparable graphics they should be on display. You make it sound like if the graphics are good people won't notice the remote.

Ceric · « **Reply #64 on:** March 22, 2006, 11:33:51 AM »

In software developement there is a saying that you can have 2 of the 3:
The project be on time
The project be on budget
The project to be at a high quality level.

Same here. You can either have your great games, bleeding edge hardware, or your price point. But only 2 of the 3.

NinGurl69 *huggles · « **Reply #65 on:** March 22, 2006, 12:22:57 PM »

Err I'm not seeing how bleeding edge hardware can be coupled with a low price point. =D

Kairon · « **Reply #66 on:** March 22, 2006, 01:59:07 PM »

"Can't have your cake and eat it too."

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

antman100 · « **Reply #67 on:** March 22, 2006, 03:52:39 PM »

C'mere dead horse...I got my bat.

Until we actually see Revo games with Revo graphic quality on a Revolution, everything else is speculation. (I could argue the same thing about usage of the RevMote)

Who said anything about bleeding edge technology? The cube never had what I would consider bleeding edge technology, but as Ian alluded to, the graphics of the cube's games were as good as any, if not better.

I hope as much as anyone that the Revo's graphics compete with the other systems. It doesn't have to be better than the others, but it should compete.

I wouldn't mind Nintendo's marketing the concept: Graphics as good as the competition AND New way to play AND Great 1st party games AND Still cheaper than everybody else. No, it's not easy to do, but I thought this was supposed to be the "AND" console.

P.S. I know that's not what they meant by the AND console, so de-bunch your panties. Now if you'll excuse me, I have some cake in the fridge.

Mario · « **Reply #68 on:** March 22, 2006, 05:32:26 PM »

Just 15 hours to go

Pale · « **Reply #69 on:** March 22, 2006, 05:39:57 PM »

I think we're gonna need another thread for when the actual speech starts...

Too much arguing in here...

wandering · « **Reply #70 on:** March 22, 2006, 07:00:57 PM »

Quote
I like it far more than "We're different. Not necessarily better but different." That's wishy-washy.

What do you want Nintendo to do? Release a console that has a revolutionary controller, AND as graphics that are as good as if not better than the competition, AND HD, AND a cheaper price point, AND a smaller and quieter form factor? I don't think so. There has to be an OR in there somewhere, there has to be some trade off.

I think, from a business perceptive, Nintendo made the right decision. Power certainly isn't everything. Sony has had the weakest hardware for 2 generations in a row. And this generation power will matter even less: graphics have reached a saturation point and consumers don't care about them nearly as much anymore. What'll be more important is what is right in front of them: how the controller works, how the console looks, the price point, etc.

That's not to say Nintendo should try to create the perception that they have the weakest hardware. They shouldn't. And, for the most part, they've been pretty good at spinning things their way. The graphics will make you say "wow", the console is a "jaguar" on the inside, oh and look at the Revolution next to this giant HD. And all that. They aren't as good at spin as Sony, but, then again, they aren't as dishonest as Sony either.

Ian Sane · « **Reply #71 on:** March 22, 2006, 07:41:32 PM »

"What do you want Nintendo to do? Release a console that has a revolutionary controller, AND as graphics that are as good as if not better than the competition, AND HD, AND a cheaper price point, AND a smaller and quieter form factor? I don't think so. There has to be an OR in there somewhere, there has to be some trade off."

Of course there's going to be a trade off (I'd prefer the smaller, quieter portion get the axe but whatever). But you don't publicly acknowledge it.

Nintendo has said that the graphics won't be an issue on normal TVs. So they should deliver on that. I'm responding to the people here acting like if the graphics actually look good then somehow this will ruin the games or not get the right point across. If Nintendo can say that they can offer what the competition has plus more with a fair degree of honesty they should. Assuming the shell is readily available and you're just using a normal TV and gameplay elements are not such that they require the extra hardware would not almost all X360 or PS3 games be doable on the Rev? We don't know the hardware specs but I'm hoping that is somewhat realistic.

wandering · « **Reply #72 on:** March 22, 2006, 09:56:07 PM »

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
If Nintendo can say that they can offer what the competition has plus more with a fair degree of honesty they should.

Quote
Originally said by: Satoru Iwata
...the fact of the matter is that if people are going to connect our machine and their machine to an ordinary TV set at home and try to compare the differences, I really don't think that they can tell such a huge difference between the machines.

Though I agree with your point that good visuals wouldn't be bad or distracting.

Anyway. Less than 10 hours to go!

MysticGohan · « **Reply #73 on:** March 22, 2006, 10:43:23 PM »

OMG MEGATON!!!

couldn't resist, it'll happen

KDR_11k · « **Reply #74 on:** March 22, 2006, 11:31:50 PM »

Reggie said "next gen graphics are just the cost of entry", remember? Showing a GC-level game with different controls would mean Nintendo failed the entry exams.

However, if they try to give both messages (Hey, we have the same thing as the next gen version of your current console plus we have a super new controller that will knock your socks off!) the diluted message confuses potential customers. If you try to iterate too many messages at once they become convoluted and it doesn't differentiate you from the crowd. So Nintendo has decided to focus on the positive aspect (the controller that will knock your socks off) and leave the rest to the consumer to find out after researching the system once they've gotten his attention.

This is the most idiotic and delusional argument I have ever heard. Never mind that even the greatest idiots can handle two claims at once, the "we have comparable graphics" message isn't even a message, it's the absense of a "we have better/worse graphics" message, i.e. simply the fact that they reached par. Par is nothing to brag about, what you do beyond par is what you can brag about.

Same here. You can either have your great games, bleeding edge hardware, or your price point. But only 2 of the 3.

The point is that it doesn't take bleeding edge hardware to give adequate graphics. If Nintendo were to release screenshots that make good use of their hardware they should end up on a level similar top that of the XCircle. Unless Nintendo chose to go with below-average hardware, that is (look at the Gamecube, that was hardly bleeding edge).

What do you want Nintendo to do? Release a console that has a revolutionary controller, AND as graphics that are as good as if not better than the competition, AND HD, AND a cheaper price point, AND a smaller and quieter form factor? I don't think so. There has to be an OR in there somewhere, there has to be some trade off.

We've seen that tradeoff already and it's HD. You can't add too many tradeoffs and expect the customer to swallow that. That's what sunk the Gamecube, when customers were undecided and chose to compare features between the three consoles the Gamecube looked like the worst. That must not happen again.

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Author Topic: GDC Iwataton Speech Thread (Read 61033 times)