Topic: GDC Iwataton Speech Thread

[Ian Sane]

"So what you are saying is new comers have to be shafted. They are not 'rea'" gamers so they have to go to the back of the bus. Only us existing 'real' gamers should ever get the good stuff. Lose the xenophobia Ian."

I didn't say that.  I said that existing gamers should get the new ideas and new IPs too, instead of just getting sequels.

[BlkPaladin]

Well supposed there are new IPs that will be revealed at E3, GDC really isn't the place to display the new IPs, just new ways of making games, this show is more for the game developers.

On a side not I'm hating myself for forgetting my mouse while I type I hit the touch pad every now and then and start writting else were in my posts.

[Strell]

Ian, why do you automatically assume a new idea is non-gamer?  What would make them gamer centric?  Do we need Cooking Mama, but it be Pokemon centric?

I don't get it.  You write it off as a new idea, then complain about sequels, yet I fail to see how you could honestly have a new idea unless it revolved expressly around a proven franchise....

[BlkPaladin]

Pikmin is a good example of good game idea that didn't revolve around an already established idea. But games like that are rare because publishers do not want to "waste" money games and idea that may go bust.

[Ian Sane]

"Ian, why do you automatically assume a new idea is non-gamer?"

I'm not.  I'm just basing my assumption on the DS.  The new IPs are clearly targetted for the non-gamers.  That doesn't mean every new IP would be but so far that's the case.

Pikmin is a good example.  It's a new idea and a new franchise and it designed for gamers.  It wasn't designed to get your grandmother interested or someone who stopped playing games years ago.  Nintendo talks about the blue ocean vs. red ocean.  Brain Age is a new IP made for the blue ocean audience.  Pikmin is a new IP made for the red ocean audience.  It's for people who are already familiar with games.  Nintendo is going to make games to attract non-gamers to the market and they're going to make games to get existing gamers to buy their system.  I want to see new ideas and new IPs used to get people who already play games to buy a Rev or DS.  So far the games designed for that purpose seem to be existing franchises.

[Zach]

I gotta agree with pale, we totally have to do that again for E3

[IceCold]

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"The new forms of innovative software that can be created by any size developer will be made available for download via Revolution's Virtual Console service. "

all those devs that may not be able to find a publisher can put their games for download on Revolution

Best thing to come out of the conference... I was seriously doubting whether Nintendo would do this.

Genesis news is awesome and the DS is a beast.

Damn you lucky bastards that were on a computer during the conference. I would have loved to be on the forums and the chat, but noo. Probably won't be for E3 either. *shakes fist*

[Infernal Monkey]

TURBOGRAFX. God yes. Thanks for the sex, Nintendo.

[31 Flavas]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane

I'm not.  I'm just basing my assumption on the DS.  The new IPs are clearly targetted for the non-gamers. [...] I said that existing gamers should get the new ideas and new IPs too, instead of just getting sequels. [...] I want to see new ideas and new IPs used to get people who already play games to buy a Rev or DS. So far the games designed for that purpose seem to be existing franchises.

And gee I wonder why? Nintendo wants to get non-gamers on board. So there has to be software made for them. And since we are not going to alienate them they are going to get Zelda's, Metroids, Mario's, and new IP as well. Whether or not you realize it or not you are being hostile, unfriendly, alienating, and xenophobic when you complain non-gamers are getting preferental treatment with the new or existing IPs. Of course they are getting preferental treatment, Nintendo wants to welcome them very warmly into the gaming universe. Unlike you who is saying thing like "If you don't like the real Metroid then tough sh!t. You shouldn't have any Metroid then." You are though going to have to do some amount of adaption Ian. You'll be constantly constantly hecked otherwise and would be more suited hanging out in an xbox or ps3 forum, since neither Microsoft or Sony want any part of this "waiving your arms about, one button controller" thing. edit: Perhaps i'm being overly harsh as well, but your constant whining about Nintendo not 'serving' you or what ever, when they are, is agitating. </end edit>

That said, Nintendo has not forgotten you or declaired you kind of gaming dead or outdated. I can, however, see how someone of your persuation could see it that way. Regardless, Zelda:TP should be more then enough proof of that, and I'm sure you see even more at E3. Miyamoto promised "us", as in "gamers", not "non-gamers", new IP as well. That is if you're not going to completely dismiss this because Nintendo won't release screenshots, numbers, and how it uses the 'revmote' so you can judge it k!ddy or gmmi(ky and dismiss it.

Sidenote:Why does the "Do not parse Emoticons" check box also not parse bold, italic, and quote tags as well, when enabled?  

[nemo_83]

I have to agree with Ian that Nintendo has not delivered yet a new IP that appeals to the gamers born from Super Mario Bros, Zelda, Metroid, Castlevania, Megaman, and all those other great firsts in this industry; and damn they were so much sweeter when they were firsts rather than twenty firsts.

On the otherhand, Zelda DS looked awesome, blending the top down 2D layout of the world with the 3D graphics from WindWaker; I still can't believe they are doing those graphics on the DS.

I would think the NintendoGo name could be legit considering the number pun; plus look at the GO in comparison to the dual squares on the DS logo.  The G breaks loose from being a box and spirals in.  

I was hoping for some Zelda TP juice though.

“Our first controller meeting was in 2004 and we had several requirements. It needed to be wireless and the look of the controller had to be simple, non-threatening but had to be sophisticated enough to server the needs of complicated games.�

i've been talking about one handed game controllers since i found i could nolonger eat chips and play Zelda at the same time with the GCN pad.  they approached this from the wrong direction and it sounds like it took them two years to figure out they needed to do seperate hemispheres.

[stevey]

I wished I could of been on chat

[UltimatePartyBear]

Anyway, I don't think it's fair to say all of Nintendo's new ideas have been targeted at nongamers.  As for new IPs, I think it would be a liability to use an existing franchise in a game targeted at nongamers.  At the very least, there would be no benefit to it.  There is an obvious benefit in using existing franchises to sell new ideas to non-nongamers, on the other hand.

(I'm pretty sure the emoticon parsing issue is just in the preview.  I've been checking that, and it hasn't messed up quotes and such.  Let's test:  gimmick)

[Ian Sane]

"Whether or not you realize it or not you are being hostile, unfriendly, alienating, and xenophobic when you complain non-gamers are getting preferental treatment with the new or existing IPs."

Geez, you're acting like I'm protesting blacks integrating into white schools.

I've just noticed in entertainment things typically go to crap as the net is cast wider.  It's hard to make something that everyone finds entertaining.  Typically the best thing you can do is make something accessable to everyone.  But the problem is that usually requires things to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator and the real fans suffer as a result.  Entertainment is usually better when it's specialized to a smaller group.  Sure not everyone "gets it" but that's okay.  The fans enjoy having something that compliments their intelligence, tastes, and skills.

I wonder how Genesis fans who liked the band during the Peter Gabriel era thought of the band in the 80s when they were basically Phil Collins' second solo career?  I'm a fan of wrestling but I've lost interest because to attract non-fans the WWE has stripped away virtually all elements of wrestling I like.  So it makes sense to be a little hostile when something you're a fan of decides to expand to include the mainstream.  Usually that's the kiss of death for a specialized interest.

Does any serious gamer honestly feel that Sony attracting the MTV crowd has improved games?  I don't mean business wise I mean that games today are better than games before then because Sony cast the net wider.

[BlkPaladin]

To make someting mainstream you have to make it for the lowest common demnominator (or commonize it).  And nothing good comes from doing that.

The PC movement is a good example (politically correct), they take a word that orginally was given because it was an esteemed word and change it to a word that has a lower meaning. For example Stewardist, a Steward is the head help at a house hold they controlled virually everything that happened in the house, and they usually took care of the children more than the parent accually did. This is were the name came from. The attendents were the class lower on the scale these were to never to be seen or else they were fired or had their wadges docked for the day. It was the class of servent right above the slaves during that time.

So you should see were I'm going with this. I know I brough this up before but I really do hate the PC movement.

[jasonditz]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Whether or not you realize it or not you are being hostile, unfriendly, alienating, and xenophobic when you complain non-gamers are getting preferental treatment with the new or existing IPs."

Geez, you're acting like I'm protesting blacks integrating into white schools.

I've just noticed in entertainment things typically go to crap as the net is cast wider.  It's hard to make something that everyone finds entertaining.  Typically the best thing you can do is make something accessable to everyone.  But the problem is that usually requires things to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator and the real fans suffer as a result.  Entertainment is usually better when it's specialized to a smaller group.  Sure not everyone "gets it" but that's okay.  The fans enjoy having something that compliments their intelligence, tastes, and skills.

I wonder how Genesis fans who liked the band during the Peter Gabriel era thought of the band in the 80s when they were basically Phil Collins' second solo career?  I'm a fan of wrestling but I've lost interest because to attract non-fans the WWE has stripped away virtually all elements of wrestling I like.  So it makes sense to be a little hostile when something you're a fan of decides to expand to include the mainstream.  Usually that's the kiss of death for a specialized interest.

Does any serious gamer honestly feel that Sony attracting the MTV crowd has improved games?  I don't mean business wise I mean that games today are better than games before then because Sony cast the net wider.

I don't think it's necessarily improved games, but I don't think it's done them some great harm either. As the market expands choice expands too... it's like saying literature went to hell with the invention of the printing press.

Using the DS as an example, Nintendo has brought us new takes on old franchises (Metroid Prime Hunters), new franchises with traditional play styles (Trace Memory), and worthy sequels to old franchises with familiar play (Mario Kart: DS).  We've also gotten some high profile non-games that have been incredibly successful

I mean, be fair here... the DS has only been out a year and a half, and the first party list, while chock full of impressive titles, isn't that long yet. So I wouldn't take the fact that there hasn't been a game yet that is simultaneously a new genre, a new franchise, a game in the traditional sense, AND a first party title as some great statement on Nintendo's policy moving forward.

Nintendo's always taking flak for not filling in the holes left by the third party lineup. We've got two excellent third party games that are new franchises, new genres, and definitely "real games" in Trauma Center and Phoenix Wright. Maybe they just feel it's more pressing to fill in gaps like "compelling online titles" and "nongames" which are getting virtually ignored by the third parties thus far.  

[Ian Sane]

"it's like saying literature went to hell with the invention of the printing press."

That's different.  That just makes it easier to print books.  This isn't a distribution related issue.

Gaming isn't actually unaccessable.  Anyone if they have the money, which is most an affordable amount, can go to the store and buy a game system and games.  All they require to play it is a TV and electricity, which anyone who can afford a game system already has.  The consoles are easy to hook up and figuring out how to play doesn't require special training.  Just push the buttons and you'll get better as you practice.  There is no barrier keeping people out.  It's just that gaming is gaming and if you don't like it then it's just not for you.

I don't like skiing.  I've tried it a few times and I'm just not comfortable with going downhill at fast speeds standing up.  There's nothing stopping me from skiing if I have the money.  I don't even need to own equipment because I can rent it.  Skiing just isn't for me.  I would benefit from shorter hills and more gradual slopes so I don't go so fast.  Ski hills aren't going to change to accomodate me and if they did everyone who likes skiing as is would lose interest.  The things I'm not comfortable with regarding skiing are some of very things that skiers like.  Tough luck for me but that's fine.  I have other interests and I have no problem with other people enjoying something I don't.

If someone wants to game they can go ahead.  But it's not fair to the rest of us for significant changes to be made for them to enjoy themselves.

[Ceric]

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I don't think it's necessarily improved games, but I don't think it's done them some great harm either. As the market expands choice expands too... it's like saying literature went to hell with the invention of the printing press.

Printing Press great.  Word Processors and The Internet sent literature that way.

[31 Flavas]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Whether or not you realize it or not you are being hostile, unfriendly, alienating, and xenophobic when you complain non-gamers are getting preferental treatment with the new or existing IPs."

Geez, you're acting like I'm protesting blacks integrating into white schools.

Well, unless I have misread or mis-interperated your posts... This is what I take away from your posts. You're put off by all the attention non-gamers are getting in hardware and software, when essentially want Nintendo essentially serving you, or people that share you view on gaming. Or perhaps more directly stated, its not that you're "racist" against non-gaming you just don't care for it and don't want "your" Nintendo franchises and hardware polluted by it.

I have been known to overreact and/or completely miss the opposing views point. So if i'm greivously wrong here, please clarifiy. It just that is what i'm taking away from your posts these days, though.

Quote
I've just noticed in entertainment things typically go to crap as the net is cast wider.  It's hard to make something that everyone finds entertaining.  Typically the best thing you can do is make something accessable to everyone.  But the problem is that usually requires things to be dumbed down to the lowest common denominator and the real fans suffer as a result.  Entertainment is usually better when it's specialized to a smaller group.  Sure not everyone "gets it" but that's okay.  The fans enjoy having something that compliments their intelligence, tastes, and skills.

And I can certainly symathize with this point of view. But if your video games / video game characters have to be specialized to you, I don't think Nintendo is where you want to hang out. If you have to play Nintendo games though, then whether you like it or not, you're going to have to like Nintendo recasting certain franchises and/or characters from time to time without complaining.

[antman100]

So...how do the Revolution's graphics look?

[jasonditz]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"it's like saying literature went to hell with the invention of the printing press."

That's different.  That just makes it easier to print books.  This isn't a distribution related issue.

Gaming isn't actually unaccessable.  Anyone if they have the money, which is most an affordable amount, can go to the store and buy a game system and games.  All they require to play it is a TV and electricity, which anyone who can afford a game system already has.  The consoles are easy to hook up and figuring out how to play doesn't require special training.  Just push the buttons and you'll get better as you practice.  There is no barrier keeping people out.  It's just that gaming is gaming and if you don't like it then it's just not for you.

I don't like skiing.  I've tried it a few times and I'm just not comfortable with going downhill at fast speeds standing up.  There's nothing stopping me from skiing if I have the money.  I don't even need to own equipment because I can rent it.  Skiing just isn't for me.  I would benefit from shorter hills and more gradual slopes so I don't go so fast.  Ski hills aren't going to change to accomodate me and if they did everyone who likes skiing as is would lose interest.  The things I'm not comfortable with regarding skiing are some of very things that skiers like.  Tough luck for me but that's fine.  I have other interests and I have no problem with other people enjoying something I don't.

If someone wants to game they can go ahead.  But it's not fair to the rest of us for significant changes to be made for them to enjoy themselves.

My parents really liked pong. Was it fair for someone to invent Asteroids?

Anyhow, my point is, what's changing? The PS2, for all the mass market crap on it, still got its epic RPGs, it still got its tactical turn based strategy games, it got its platformers, it got 2D fighters, and shoot em ups.

There's a part of me that likes the idea of video games being a nerd hobby that most people don't get, but when I think about it realistically, so long as the games I like to play keep getting made, what's the real harm in some old grandmother type playing Brain Age or some 8 year old girl getting a kick out of Nintendogs?

[BigJim]

"If you have to play Nintendo games though, then whether you like it or not, you're going to have to like Nintendo recasting certain franchises and/or characters from time to time without complaining."

"You'll eat it and like it" is just as ridiculous. Fine for any potential unwavering fanboys, but not everybody. People are allowed to have their tastes and want more of it without being accused of some sort of elitistism. All we've heard about are non-gamers, so it's not unfair for some GAMERS to ask what'll be in it for them. The "Oh yeah and there will be games for gamers too" attitude is hardly convincing. Not everybody is sold on hype and promise alone. Especially after Nintendo record the last several years.


"I don't think Nintendo is where you want to hang out"

Indeed, as 85% of the market has shown this generation. More and more have graduated to consoles more relevent to them. At the going rate, "mainstream" is all they have left, practically out of necessity because their pond is drying up and they're being marginalized to irrelevance. Nintendo's strategy may matter more to their beancounters than their gamers. We'll find out.  

[IceCold]

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Skiing just isn't for me. I would benefit from shorter hills and more gradual slopes so I don't go so fast. Ski hills aren't going to change to accomodate me and if they did everyone who likes skiing as is would lose interest.

Wow... thanks Ian, your analogy there is perfect. That's EXACTLY why ski hills have different runs; some for beginners, some for those with intermediate skill, and some for experts. You know, the colour-coded diamonds. And that is EXACTLY what Nintendo is trying to do; they won't just make non-games dumbed down for the new gamers. They'll balance it out..

[Galford]

Where do I start?

Nintendo with this generation is focusing on making games that are low cost and high profit for Nintendo.  I get the idea that 3rd party developers are once again an after thought.

About the announcement of the Turbografix, is that just the original system or are they including the CD and Supergrafix systems?  The Turbo-Duo had a lot of variations in Japan.

[Guitar Smasher]

So making games more expensive, and diminishing profits is what you consider 'thinking about the 3rd parties'?

[31 Flavas]

Quote
Originally posted by: BigJim
"If you have to play Nintendo games though, then whether you like it or not, you're going to have to like Nintendo recasting certain franchises and/or characters from time to time without complaining."

"You'll eat it and like it" is just as ridiculous. Fine for any potential unwavering fanboys, but not everybody. People are allowed to have their tastes and want more of it without being accused of some sort of elitistism.

Hey, if you've got a problem with it, take it up with Nintendo. This really isn't the place for that unless all you want is a flame war.

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All we've heard about are non-gamers, so it's not unfair for some GAMERS to ask what'll be in it for them. The "Oh yeah and there will be games for gamers too" attitude is hardly convincing.

As if, Twilight Princess isn't a gamer's game, give me a break. You're both dismissing revolution before you even know what is available or give it a try. Then again I guess you wouldn't even give it a fair shake anyway.

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Not everybody is sold on hype and promise alone.

Oh geez if this isn't the Pot calling the kettle black.... Emotion engine anyone? Toystory level graphics? Or how about Peter Moore talking for Microsoft, "Next generation games will combine unprecedented audio and visual experiences to create worlds that are beyond real and they'll deliver storylines and game play so compelling that it will feel like living a lucid dream."