Author Topic: Unification.  (Read 3165 times)

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Offline KDR_11k

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Unification.
« on: March 16, 2006, 06:57:34 AM »
The Rev controller subtlety article seemed to go into the right direction but ended up missing this completely:

The Revolution's rod controller allows for unified interaction in games! Basically, in a game that goes beyond "kill everything in sight" your character can interact with the environment in multiple ways (like pushing buttons, inserting keys into keyholes, etc, you know, everything Link does). However, these ways are limited and if you don't want a big box of confusing button combinations you will give the player some basic actions that are always applicable and a context-sensitive button.

Now here we got our problem for puzzles: Your player can only do the basic things you've allowed him to do, like swing a sword. If that's not sufficient you use the context sensitive button (CSB). But because the player can't guess that the button's function has changed you'll need to tell him. E.g. the player stands in front of a lever, an icon pops up to tell the player that the CSB now means "pull this lever". With this you can't hide things very well, when the player is in front of the statue with the hidden button you have to tell him that he can use the statue somehow so you've given away that it is not just decoration. Of course you can try adding some stupid text to each statue to mask this by giving a "use" popup with every statue you encounter but that's still not optimal. You simply don't know whether the player really has spotted the hidden button or whether he's just randomly hammering the CSB.

Also, a CSB can have only one function at a time and no matter whether the player really knows what he should do with the element he interacts with you make him do the optimal thing. Say, there was a rock near a cliff. The player wants to tie a rope to it to create a weight for some contraption. He goes there and pushes the CSB. Suddently his character kicks the rock down into the chasm. While that probably was the correct action the player didn't think of it and you gave him a solution.

Or when you have to interact with something that's more complex than just pushing a button, e.g. guiding a crane. In Mario 64 there was a platform with four buttons on it that you could control. But buttons on the floor don't work for everything and most games resort to putting you in "control mechanism" mode and make your controls do different things than they usually do (e.g. guide the crane instead of moving your character). That means a discontinuity in controls, additional complication and usually a limit to what you are willing to implement (because those things would need a special mode in the gamecode).

Compare this to Doom 3: Instead of standing in front of a panel and pushing use, you lower your weapon when approaching a panel and use the mouse to control a cursor on the panel, you can click on different buttons there. It's not perfect but it doesn't put you in crane control mode when you need to control a crane, for example. All panels work in the same way and the player always knows how the panel works.

But with the Revmote you can take this a step further. If the player can always control his hand/equipment with such high precision and freedom you can have him remain in a single state for the entire game. Instead of having a CSB you let the player do what he wants directly. Since the Rev is a nextgen platform it should be able to do the physics for allowing the player to get creative and even find alternative solutions to puzzles. But I'm getting ahead of myself. Since your player now can do things like touch a specific region of any object nearby (please spare me the obvious female character jokes) he doesn't need a message to pop up when he's near an interactive element, he has to spot the element and use it himself. If the statue's left eye can be pushed the player has to push the statue's left eye instead of pressing the "push statue's left eye" button. That allows for much more freedom in designing puzzles. You could have the player use his sword as a replacement for a broken lever, you could have the player reflect sunlight with the sword (as in SOTC except without a separate button so it can be required for one level only), you could let him take a hammer and widen a gap on a wall to reveal a hiden item, etc.

With the Rev the player's character and controls can behave in the same way throughout the game without limiting the actions the player can or has to take in the game. Previous Zelda games have tried to do this as much as possible but they were still limited by the game's action set. With the rod you'll see many more puzzles in Zelda that require new approaches not seen before.

I apologize if this has been written before but there's so much useless speculation in the Rev section that I can't be bothered to tead every single post in this forum .

Offline RiskyChris

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RE: Unification.
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2006, 08:20:43 AM »
You know, I read beautiful dissertations about the revolution controller all the time like this, but there are still people that scoff the controller like it's a useless piece of plastic (hi2u sony/ms fanboys).  I don't get it?  The revmote is the first step towards finally having virtual reality, and for that matter, I'm extremely interested in Nintendo's next-next system.

Bah, the remote is going to be the greatest thing yet that's happened to gaming.  Fantastic read.

Offline trip1eX

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RE: Unification.
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2006, 09:59:27 AM »
WEll if you're saying they can get rid of the CSBs then I'm all for it.  

That's one thing I didn't like about RE4.  The whole green button showing up and you hit it and you watch your guy jump or catch someone or kick someone or .....  

Hopefully that's true.  I know most pcgames don't have alot of context sensitive button pressing.  Not sure that's because of the audience on the pc or the mouse or sitting at your desk or the high-res or ....

Offline eljefe

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RE:Unification.
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2006, 10:03:42 AM »
yes, yes


What you said regarding the CSB-concept is true. One of my favorites was L-scanning in MP1. I don't know if other games had used a similar idea, however, I was impressed at how it was implemented by Retro.

I think revolution games will defnately be made or  broken by how often and how creatively they use the remote for context-sensitive actions.

I think it should be a rev standard that there should be more than one way to defeat opponents and bosses. They may have a major fatal flaw, as is traditional, but they should also have several minor flaws and weaknesses.

To make boss battles and general combat less linear devs could make it so that you can either go for the major flaw (which would be straightforward and obvious, but very difficult to exploit) or go for enough of  the minor flaws that they are defeated. The minor flaws would be unspoken, but general common sense. To use a really unimaginative example, if the enemy has jointed limbs: aim for the joints. If it has multiple limbs: taking a few out will slow it down. Likewise, if you manage to remove all of its limbs it will be a stationary target (and therefore MUCH easier to dispatch). Or for co-op play, imagine blinding the boss with your sword while your buddy attacked from behind?

If the enemy AI was good enough that could make for a very deep combat system.  
..:    I just noticed WTF is FTW backwords. Sometimes when you think things are going bad, they suddenly turn around. Much like this thread. For the win.  :.   MJRx9000

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Unification.
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2006, 10:07:23 AM »
Wonderful.  And the avatar adds personality to the read =D

I saw similar hand-reaching-out-and-pushing-button situations in Geist; reaching out to the world in addition to attacking.  I loved it.  Sure, I put down $50 for Geist, I took a RISK, but came away satisfied with my investment.  I sincerely want to see more of this stuff, especially as puzzles.

And regarding indicating context-sensitive situations to the player, I've always been a fan of using Rumble as a hint, and I liked Killer7's audio cue (tho the camera angle might be too much of a giveaway).
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Offline Caliban

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RE: Unification.
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2006, 02:37:03 PM »
Yup, gread read. It's unfortunate that many people fail to see the remote's overwhelming potential for fun and enticing gameplay.

Offline Smash_Brother

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RE: Unification.
« Reply #6 on: March 16, 2006, 05:53:39 PM »
Most people seem to prefer the "preemptive bitch" attitude, to say that they're going to be a whiny bitch about the controller before they've even seen any software for it at all.

It's sad, really.
"OK, first we need someone to complain about something trivial. Golden or S_B should do. Then we get someone to defend the game, like Bill or Mashiro. Finally add some Unclebob or Pro666 randomness and the thread should go to hell right away." -Pap64