Topic: Best system launch ever?!

[animecyberrat]

I agree KDr, Ihad actualy meant to say alot more than that but took my original post down and forgot a lotof what i was trying tosay, but liekI said that was the gist of whatI wa saying. I dont think the controller will suck bt therest hat fear it ownt work for some of my favorite types of games.



I am not the kind of person to try new games that I am unfamiliar with unless it is something I have already thought about before  or if it resembles something I either already like or have already thouight of. I say this because I have been playing games since theAtari days and I have found that I like a certain style of game and tehres certain kinds of games I dont like. I personaly prefer fat paced games that dont take too long to get into thatI can pick up playfor a little bit and then quit when i want witout having to worry abotu finding a save point or rushing through some important story scenes/text.

A Cooking game does not interest me, but I work in restaurants my wholelife and have been a cook and i dont want a game doing somethign I do in real life. Even racing games arent as fun anymore, since I was a pizza driver cuz I got pretty good at driving my car fast and a video game cant simulate that real fast pace anymore.

And that sorta sucsk cuz I have always beena  big fan of racing games.

I am open for trying new things, especialy since the familair stuff isnt gonna be familiar anymore (alot of why I didnt like most GC games) so I dont knwo maybe I am just not into trying new things. I used to be, I was so excited for Sega CD just cuz it was gonna have FMV and I was excited for original playstation and Saturn cuz they were gonna have 3d games, and i was excited for N64 because of Mario 64, I wasnt so excited for GC cuz it was just a repeat of 64 for the most part. I try and get excited for the rev but what gets me the most excited is the Virtual COnsole and the SuperSmash Bros onine, I am dieing to play some of you guys at that and find out once and for all how much I suck.

[animecyberrat]

oh and the arthiritis thing i forgot to answer someone, well it actualy helps when i play video games cuz it keeps my figners active, they dont get so stiff and I can move my thumps pretty good. It sucks though cuz ive had it forever and soemtimes it make soemthigs unbreaable. but damn celbrex cost too much money so I have to get by with Ibprofrins and tough it out. I dont let it afect daily thinsg though I just snap my fingers crak my joints and ignore it for the most part. It is a bitch though but its not important I live with it so do millions of peoples its  aminor issue.  

[Ian Sane]

I've got to post more on the weekends because I'm way behind.

"raise your hand if when you first started playing video games like mario, and you wanted to make him jump really far you would move the controller to, subconscienciously hoping it would help him jump further."

I did but I wasn't trying to move Mario by moving the controller.  It's like in bowling where you throw the ball and it looks like it's going for a strike but it's just a little bit off so you make gestures to make it move.  It's just something you do because you're in the moment.  Imagine actually playing Super Mario Bros by moving the controller like that.  It would be incredibly imprecise.  Just because we do that doesn't mean that's the ideal way to control the game.

"Ian, I honestly believe you FEAR change."

I only fear change if I'm not confident that change will be for the good.  I'm not confident enough in Nintendo right now to look forward to this change.  It doesn't help that I'm quite unimpressed with the DS touchscreen and that's what people often compare the Rev to.  "Look at how well the touchscreen is working out" is not going to convince someone who isn't impressed by the touchscreen to be optimistic about the Rev.  If anything it might make them feel less optimistic.  I'm fine with change if I agree with the reason for the change.  Nintendo tells me that people are getting bored with gaming as is or that they need to reinvent the controller to innovate.  I don't agree with any of that so I don't agree with the reason for the change and thus I'm not very enthusiastic about it.  What's there isn't broken and what's being brought in hasn't been proven to be better.  That sounds too much like change for the sake of change.

Regarding the topic of having sequels and franchise games selling the Rev concept I'm reminded of a Penny Arcade comic that came out when the Cube was first revealed.  The punchline was "1986 called, they want their games back".  Penny Arcade knows their sh!t.  They play games on every system imaginable.  They like Nintendo and play Nintendo games.  So for them to have had that attitude is significant.  If hardcore gamers don't recognize that Nintendo sequels aren't just the same stuff over again how can anyone else?  Now the Penny Arcade guys love good games so they don't care if Nintendo is innovative or not provided the games are fun.  But someone who has decided they don't like Mario anymore is never going to give Nintendo a chance if all they got is Mario.

[RiskyChris]

Ian, what games have you played on the DS?  Honest, unprovoking question.

[Ian Sane]

"Ian, what games have you played on the DS?"

Metroid Prime Hunters demo
Advance Wars
Castlevania
Mario Kart
Warioware
Polarium
Kirby Canvas Curse
Feel the Magic demo that was online and thus might not be accurate enough to make an opinion on.

I doubt the question was "unprovoking" as someone is sure to jump on me for not having tried this game or that game.

[MaryJane]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane


 It would be incredibly imprecise.  Just because we do that doesn't mean that's the ideal way to control the game.

Nintendo tells me that people are getting bored with gaming as is or that they need to reinvent the controller to innovate.  I don't agree with any of that so I don't agree with the reason for the change and thus I'm not very enthusiastic about it.  What's there isn't broken and what's being brought in hasn't been proven to be better.  That sounds too much like change for the sake of change.

at first the rev controller is going to take some getting used to and it will be imprecise, but the human mind has this weird thing called adaptation, and it also has the ability to learn go figure.

i don't know about the rest of you, but for me every controlller takes getting used to. when i play with an xbox, i feel like someone just threw me a brick with indents and said play. i have to get used to just playing with controllers from different systems, even nintendo systems. the touchscreen took getting used to, everything takes getting used to. even the individual battle systems in games. should everything remain stagnant to satisfy those who fear change? you know racist, sexicist,  and masoganists, also fear change. stagnation prevents progress, change encourages it.  

Nintendo isn't the one saying people are getting bored with video games. the declining sales (not only for nintendo) are saying that people are getting bored with video games. and why do you suppose that is? no innovation. more of the same gets tired quick.

[Ian Sane]

"Nintendo isn't the one saying people are getting bored with video games. the declining sales (not only for nintendo) are saying that people are getting bored with video games. and why do you suppose that is? no innovation. more of the same gets tired quick."

I thought gaming sales went up last year.  I don't associate low sales with people being bored with games as they are but just bored with EA releasing the same junk again and again and crappy licenced games and the billion different World War II games there are.  But that doesn't mean people are bored with gaming period, just bored with a glut of similar product.  Now you can say that means we need to innovate.  Yes we do but that doesn't mean we need to complete rehaul the controller.  Nintendo innovated last gen with games like Metroid Prime and Pikmin and they were fantastic.  But they also stagnated because they released so many Mario spinoffs and had third parties working on franchise games and shoehorned Star Fox into a crap title.  It's all in the content, not the interface of the console itself.  If Nintendo has a problem with innovation it's because of their stupid "who are you?" nonsense where they decided that Nintendo stood for milking franchises instead of releasing essential games that push the industry forward.  I don't see that changing for the Rev so I see the remote more as a quick fix to give a new spin on the same franchises.  The idea of innovating is always solid but I don't have faith in the execution and I don't think people are bored with the way we play games like Nintendo seems to think.  There's a big difference between "we need to make more innovative games" and "we have to complete redesign gaming altogether".

Plus Nintendo is also saying that people are intimidated by the controller which I don't agree with.  I also don't like their blue ocean strategy as I think people who don't game don't game because they're not interested in the fundamental concept of gaming, not because there's some easily removable barrier that keeps them out.

[Kairon]

Well Ian, a cynic would say that Nintendo's reason for the controller innovation is that they need to do something drastic to challenge the status quo of Sony being number 1 and MS being number 2. A cynic wouldn't care at all about what Nintendo says regarding the need for new gameplay and how today's games are starting to lose touch with people and starting to stagnate, that's all marketting speak. A cynic would see this for what it really is, a blue ocean marketting and engineering strategy for Nintendo to earn more money by deliberately setting themselves apart from the competition.

Really, Nintendo IS a corporation with a long history of profitability. It's ALL about the money isn't it? That's really the only reason for anything.

But about the Penny-Arcade comment, it's clearly about Nintendo's lack of relevance to modern pop culture. *shrug* Reggie's asked the same question too: How do you sell Mario to the 14-year old raised on GTA 3? It isn't an observation about Nintendo's worth or ability, it's an evaluation of the style of Nintendo's internal studio. And it reinforces my belief that Nintendo's biggest strength is also their biggest weakness: Miyamoto.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Ian, what games have you played on the DS?"

Metroid Prime Hunters demo
Advance Wars
Castlevania
Mario Kart
Warioware
Polarium
Kirby Canvas Curse
Feel the Magic demo that was online and thus might not be accurate enough to make an opinion on.

I doubt the question was "unprovoking" as someone is sure to jump on me for not having tried this game or that game.

Since this topic started with a credentialed list of games, I'll start with mine.

I've played:

Feel the magic
Metroid Hunters Demo
Nintendogs: Chihuahua
Age of Empires
Pac Pix
Sprung
Ping Pals
Yoshi's Touch N' Go
Kirby's Canvas Curse
Mario & Luigi Partner's In Time
Lost in Blue
Mario Kart
Animal Crossing
Trauma Center
Electroplankton
Phoenix Wright Ace Attorney

So if you guys won't believe Ian, maybe you'll believe me. The touch screen hasn't truly proved essential out of the gate.

I only consider ONE of these games to be a brilliant use of the touchscreen that under no circumstances could ever exist on another system.

That game is Pac Pix, and I love it... Well, I'd personally also want to add Metroid Hunters to the list but it isn't out yet really. The touch screen really makes the FPS experience uber fluid. The others are good, but they don't really use the touch screen to mind-freaking effect.

Thank goodness the DS has other capabilities in addition to that, the sparkling innovationy microphone, sparkling innovationy GBA cart add-ons, and the potentially awesome two screens.

Seriously, I'm still waiting for a two-screen proof of concept game that tells two different stories at the same time using both screens, or has gameplay where it is absolutely important that you see the world in both first person view on the touchscreen and third person three-quarters view on the top screen. Two screens, two viewpoints, awesome gameplay I say.

Hmm....so I agree with Ian and disagree with him. Ian is compeltely justified in my view by saying that the touchscreen is unproven. I agree with him there. I just like to imagine games that don't exist, but would wholly prove the concept in my eyes.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Ian Sane]

"And it reinforces my belief that Nintendo's biggest strength is also their biggest weakness: Miyamoto."

I agree with that to an extent.  Miyamoto is a brilliant developer and makes some of the greatest games ever.  But Nintendo had a better lineup of games when they also had Gunpei Yokoi.  I think the problem isn't Miyamoto himself but rather how he is used.  As a game designer he is a very valuable asset.  But he hasn't been a designer for a while.  Now he's more of a consultant who has his finger in everyone's pie.  So the Nintendo lineup is more homogenous because Miyamoto's touch is in almost everything.  But since he'ss spread out the overall lineup is weaker because there aren't many "pure" Miyamoto titles anymore.  If Miyamoto just concentrated on his own games things would probably be better.  EAD games would be better and non-EAD games would feel more unique.

It would be nice if Nintendo put a restriction on their own use of franchises as well.  On the NES they had a limit of how many games a third party could release per year to improve quality.  They would benefit from enforcing a similar restriction on themselves.  How about a franchise can only be used once per year so that every time they make a Mario game they have to make it count?

[Kairon]

I can see what you're saying Ian, about limiting franchise exposure, but I'm still hesitant to agree with that because some of the best games I've played have been Mario spinoffs.

Mario Party was an amazing phenomenon, and despite it's plethora of rapid money-making sequels still garners huge sales, quality gaming, and my love. You'd have to be crazy to stop making Mario Parties!

And Mario Paint, GAWD! That game owns an entire segment of my gaming life. As a kid I made the introductions to my family's VHS home videos of vacations using Mario paint's music, art and animation tools.

So there are two Mario spin-offs I'd LOVE to see on the Rev as soon as possible.

On the other hand... hmm.. what would you say about Nintendo stopping shopping Mario out to third parties? I mean, at least be more judicious. Perhaps with more third party support for the Rev than the GC Nintendo won't feel as pressured to flaunt their franchises, and reserve the out-branding to only very key partners. For example, Nintendo can't say no to Squaresoft, they're too important. Let Squaresoft use Mario. And let Namco use Link. BUT FOR GOD SAKES NO MORE STARFOX GAMES PLEASE! THIRD PARTIES JUST RUIN THEM!

But the Rev really shouldn't need a "Mario Superstar Baseball" or "Mario Super Strikers." If there's not enough third party support and not enough innovatin or ideas for the Rev that Nintendo needs to start offering its franchises to smaller, less significant developers, then Nintendo has bigger problems than whoring out its franchises.

~Carmine M. Red

[BigJim]

Nintendo should embrace the western market better in general. Rare was able to balance them out somewhat, but now it's like they live in a Japanese bubble almost entirely, or try to make "universal" games. As Ian says, it all feels homogenous, whether Miyamoto is to blame or not.

The answer to Reggie's question is easy. Make a new game that GTA players would enjoy. It's not ALL about sex and violence for the sake of sex and violence. If it were all about just capping sluts and grannies, it would have gotten boring in 5 minutes. Under the hood is some pretty solid gameplay mechanics that kept them coming back. It's not rocket science. They just need to pop their bubble and wake up. Relying on 3rd parties to do it isn't the answer either. The console maker sets the pace, especially in Nintendo's case.

But this is all rehashed opinion.

[Kairon]

What Nintendo needs to do is hire us PGCers to make em such a game. lol

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Ceric]

No no no... Making the games would be to Forest and Trees.  We lose sight what we wanted to do quickly.  They should use us as consultants and in the test phases so we can yay and nay.

[Kairon]

They should use us as game designers. Because game designers are basically game consultants...I think...

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Smash_Brother]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
I thought gaming sales went up last year.

Actually, they were down across the board for all systems...except for the DS which basically single-handedly made up for the sh!ttacular sales of the other systems.

The DS already has 5-6 million-selling titles under it's belt and it's barely a year old.

Frankly, if I was a developer and I saw that the only system making strong numbers out there was a weird little thing with two screens and a pen, I'd give some more credence to the buzz around innovation.

[Ian Sane]

I think the ideal game to help Nintendo wouldn't just be a mature game or anything like that.  They always try to make "everyone" games which makes things kind of bland because everything starts to look the same.  I've always felt that the real way to have an "everybody" system is to have a variety of titles so that everyone can find something they enjoy.  Nintendo thinks every game should be suitable for everyone.  I don't think they're ever going to change that so I'm trying to think of a way to break out while still making an everyone game.

I think the key is to make something that is suitable for all ages but looks different than Nintendo's usual titles.  One thing that has always set Metroid apart is that it looks very un-Nintendo like.  Most of Nintendo's franchises look like they could stand next to Mario and not look that out of place.  Even something like Zelda could probably be thrown into Mario's world with just a few cosmetic changes.  But Samus would always look wrong next to Mario.  It would just never fit.

So Nintendo should make some games that still have universal appeal but don't look like their other titles.  Goldeneye had huge universal appeal but looks nothing like a typical Nintendo game.  Games like R-Type or Daytona USA are perfectly kid-friendly but have a style complete unlike Nintendo, yet with high standard of quality.  I'm just tossing out good games that don't feel or look like Nintendo games that are kid-friendly.

I think Nintendo thinks that to be kid-friendly they have to make things cutesy but sometimes just making something neutral works too.  I'd say a kid-friendly game would be any game without blood or graphic violence, swearing, blatant sexuality, or any glorifying of illegal activity.  And even in there I'd say some leeway is okay.  There's nothing wrong with having someone get shot and killed provided that character is clearly "evil" and it's done without gore.  Anything subject material that was considered okay on the NES that didn't have parents groups freaking out is kid-friendly.

They don't even have to make boring titles that take place in reality.  Why not use cowboys or pirates as a theme?  A fantasy element can always remain without turning your game into magic rainbow land.

One idea I've had for years is a game where you're a police officer and you chase criminals through a city.  With today's technology such a game could be done with a full sized city.  This idea would appeal to all ages.  You play a policeman so it's an honorable position.  You're undoubtably a "good guy".  There would be no need for violence to make the game work, just car wrecks.  There would be no need for foul language or any sexual content whatsoever.  So the game would be suitable for kids while at the same time the style of game would appeal to adults and teens.  Why can't Nintendo make more games like that?  Quality gameplay with no cutesy stuff and with no content unsuitable for kids.

[Jensen]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Nintendo innovated last gen with games like Metroid Prime and Pikmin and they were fantastic.

Metroid Prime and Pikmin wouldn't work as N64 games.  The increased power of the gamecube was necessary for those games.  But we are coming to a point in which a newer CPU won't help much.  Why design a new system if it isn't going to open up new gameplay possibilities?    I guess physics could use a faster CPU... I really like all the physics in Half-Life 2 , but even that showed up on the original Xbox.  But I'd also like to try HL2 with a Revolution controller so I can throw grenades and manipulate objects that I pick up.


 

[Kairon]

What was that game called again Ian? Dead to Rights? No..ummm... they made one about LA and made the last one about NYC.... can't for the life of me remember that game.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[pudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
What was that game called again Ian? Dead to Rights? No..ummm... they made one about LA and made the last one about NYC.... can't for the life of me remember that game.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

True Crime: Streets of L.A.
True Crime: New York City

[Ian Sane]

"What was that game called again Ian? Dead to Rights? No..ummm... they made one about LA and made the last one about NYC.... can't for the life of me remember that game"

The True Crime games (assuming that's what you're thinking of) are like GTA rip-offs though.  I'm thinking more like Crazy Taxi with police.

"But we are coming to a point in which a newer CPU won't help much. Why design a new system if it isn't going to open up new gameplay possibilities?"

I think that's a cop out.  Nintendo could have innovated more on the Cube but instead chose to make every possible Mario Sports game imaginable.  Plus I don't really see the remote as opening up new possibilities or at least not providing that without shutting other ideas out.  The overhaul nature of the design troubles me the most.  I would have no problem if they just had a "normal" controller with motion control inside.  One thing that does provide new possibilities, and we have proof that it does, is online gaming which Nintendo neglected last gen.  That right there alone gives them some space to work with.  And with hardware you can always do more: better AI, better physics, more characters on the screen at once.  These things can spark new ideas.

Why release new hardware?  The real reason is because the competition does it and you'll look like a tool if you don't.  It doesn't help that the Cube is totally dead.  A new console is needed just for Nintendo to stay alive.  So even if their next console was just better hardware it give them a fresh slate with consumers.  No one would notice if all their innovative Rev games were doable on the Cube.

[Kairon]

Hmm..Crazy Taxi with Police? Sort of a Burn-out-esque Car Chase Spy Hunter? Hmmmm...

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

That's your opinion on whether Nintendo could've innovated with the GC Ian. After Sunshine and WindWaker, I think Nintendo convinced at least themselves that they were having a real tough time of it.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[pudu]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
That's your opinion on whether Nintendo could've innovated with the GC Ian. After Sunshine and WindWaker, I think Nintendo convinced at least themselves that they were having a real tough time of it.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

lol I thin this is very true.  I think that they are getting as tired of the same old as we are.  If it ain't broke don't fix it can only last for so long before an overhaul has to happen and I'm glad they realised this.  Will be funny when the other companies follow suite and then later everyone forgets who started this "revolution" in the first place and Nintendo is more then likely back to being the underdog again.  Oh well I will still be there awaiting their next move

[Strell]

When Nintendo innovates, people bitch.
When Nintendo doesn't innovate, people bitch.

I mean, there is NO right way for Nintendo.  They set all the damn trends - with the exception of mature games - and everyone comes back and throws it in their face that they screw up.

Sometimes I wish Nintendo wasn't run by people like Miyamoto and Iwata.  They need some real a**holes working for them - the kind that go into the public eye and stupidly bash everything to hell.  You know, like Mark Rein, Kutaragi, Iga, the guy from Shiny, etc etc.  Just a lot of money grubbing arrogant pricks to come out and call gamers morons for liking and/or disliking certain things.  

Or maybe they need to promise the entire damn world in all of their games, then absolutely fail to deliver even on the slightest.  

I mean, SOMETHING, SOMETHING to make me feel like the guys at Nintendo are still human, you know?  They need to sh*t all over us back and forth and tell us we will take our medicine and f***ing like it.

Then at least I'd feel a legitimate reason to be pissed at them.  If Miyamoto came out like all the f***sticks from Tecmo/Konami and ruthlessly tore apart other games and designers, I'd feel okay about calling them un-innovating jerk capitalistic dog pissants.

Instead we have these hugely humble men working tirelessly for our enjoyment, and arguably the biggest and brightest mind in the entire industry makes a decent wage, instead of the billions he's entitled do.  And they continually put out games knowing that they built the industry into what it is and will always set the trends.

I suggest, if you hate Nintendo's practices so much, that you ignore them altogether.  Quit voting for them with your cash, only to be endlessly disappointed because you are holding them on a pedestal FAR higher than ANY of the other companies, the grand majority of which don't even come CLOSE to comparing.  Don't buy a Rev, don't buy a DS, don't play Mario or Zelda.  Just completely deny yourself anything Nintendo makes.

THEN come back and bitch, because by then you might have earned the right to.

Do I think people can complain?  Of course, but I am SICK AND TIRED of Nintendo getting NOTHING but flack from so many ends of the spectrum and from every last person related to this industry.  

If they were truly spiteful and asinine, they'd take the cash and RUN, leaving a big FU to everyone.  While I'd be pissed, I can't say I'd blame them in the event it happened.  If I were Miyamoto I'd probably want to just go garden and tell everyone to suck my balls.  It just sounds so thankless, the fans.  It's like you pay money against your will and subsequently believe Nintendo is stealing your wallet for their own devious ends.

I mean, if the reaction to Nintendo is the way it is, how can anyone deal with other companies?  I just don't get it.  Is there just a collective undercurrent that we cut everyone that much slack?

Standards, man.  What a bitch.