Topic: GC Controllers Won't Work on Rev Games

[IceCold]

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
What this news says to me is that the shell probably won't have the same button layout or even same number of buttons as the GameCube controller.

You guys might consider this blasphemy, but I'm hoping there will be some kind of goofy third-party USB converter that lets me use an Xbox 360 controller for traditional games.  But maybe the shell will be even better, who knows?

I'm expecting it to have 8 buttons for N64 VC compatibility (maybe including shoulder button(s)).

And Bill's right; the Wavebird is more ergonomic than the 360 controller. As well, the 360's analogue stick is not even comparable to the GCN's (WAY too smooth). And finally, the 360's buttons don't have quite as good a feel as Nintendo ones.

Nintendo will probably replace the C-Stick with another analogue stick, and the Z-button will be improved on (if there are shoulder buttons).

So I have no doubt that the shell will be good enough for traditional games.

[IceCold]

[ThePerm]

this  comes  into  Ians point. I want damn options! How  does this bode for bongo games?  I want some  more in the future.  There  is no need  to release a newer bongo other than  to be  greedy. I mean  one  bongo or another? If I have to buy new bongos to play new bongo games..i wont buy new bongos or new bongo games. This is  where  backward compatability is a good thing it allows a fanbase to  grow!

[ruby_onix]

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Originally posted by: Artimus
So...we can't use a controller that not longer serves all the needed functions to play a game? Oh my, what a tragedy. If we're talking about ports then using the GCN controller only continues the port flaw of the controller in the first place! If they release a shell with "enough" buttons then you get the best of both worlds. Using the GCN controller would be stupid on all front...

I just don't get the problem...you have to get new controllers with every system, duh?

You asked for it.

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Originally posted by: Shigeru Miyamoto in 2002
What I really want to say is, "Get accustomed to the GCN Controller because, 10 years from now, this controller will be the standard."

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Originally posted by: Shigeru Miyamoto in 2005
"Well, of course, the idea is that the Revolution will sell and sell and sell so it becomes the standard in the industry. However, at least for the launch period...we designed the controller so it can play any of the different conventional styles. After all, we are talking about it playing games from our past machines. So don't worry."

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Added by: Reggie
And just in case any of you were getting any bright ideas about using a GameCube controller for those older-style games, you can forget about it. We're adding a second L Trigger and a Select Button to the shell, so now you couldn't even use a GameCube controller if you wanted to.

Edit: BTW, my Reggie quote is a joke. The Shiggy quotes are real.

[Artimus]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix

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Originally posted by: Artimus
So...we can't use a controller that not longer serves all the needed functions to play a game? Oh my, what a tragedy. If we're talking about ports then using the GCN controller only continues the port flaw of the controller in the first place! If they release a shell with "enough" buttons then you get the best of both worlds. Using the GCN controller would be stupid on all front...

I just don't get the problem...you have to get new controllers with every system, duh?

You asked for it.

Quote
Originally posted by: Shigeru Miyamoto in 2002
What I really want to say is, "Get accustomed to the GCN Controller because, 10 years from now, this controller will be the standard."

Quote
Originally posted by: Shigeru Miyamoto in 2005
"Well, of course, the idea is that the Revolution will sell and sell and sell so it becomes the standard in the industry. However, at least for the launch period...we designed the controller so it can play any of the different conventional styles. After all, we are talking about it playing games from our past machines. So don't worry."

Quote
Added by: Reggie
And just in case any of you were getting any bright ideas about using a GameCube controller for those older-style games, you can forget about it. We're adding a second L Trigger and a Select Button to the shell, so now you couldn't even use a GameCube controller if you wanted to.

I don't get your point? Reggie and the second Shiggie quote prove my point...The first Miyamoto quote just turned out to not be true.

[ruby_onix]

Here's what I think my current point is.

In the NES era, Nintendo abandoned the joystick in favor of the D-pad, and they ushered in a revolutionary new control style.

With the SNES, Nintendo refined the d-pad-based controller into what is quite possibly the most perfect controller of it's kind.

Then with the N64, Nintendo revolutionized again with analog. It wasn't perfect, but analog carried it.

Then with the Cube, Nintendo refined the analog controller, reacting to everyone else's refinement of their idea, but it was clearly flawed. Me Ian and a number of other people could plainly see it, but Shiggy said it was perfection and half the Nintendo fanbase had their heads too far up his butt to see otherwise.

Now Nintendo's revolutionizing again, with a 3D space controller. And if you ask me, it's far from perfect. It's strengths (as great as they appear to be) are going to have to carry it's flaws yet again. And I know I'll probably be flamed for saying it.

And at this same time, Nintendo is finally admitting that they failed to perfect the analog controller with the Cube. And that they're trying again with the shell. I've got mixed feelings on the matter. On the one hand, I think they're right to make improvements. On the other, I wonder if maybe they're a little too late for that. They've moved on to the Revmote. Also, the GCN controller didn't exactly suck, and any improvements would likely be minor. Is that significant enough to justify an incompatible redesign? Should we just allow Nintendo to go back on their 2002 claims, and make similar new claims, without raking them over the coals a little? I think I'm starting to ramble, but those are just some of my thoughts on the matter.

[IceCold]

Is that significant enough to justify an incompatible redesign?

I still haven't figured out a way to play N64 games on the GameCube controller.

[Bill Aurion]

I think saying things like "The meal isn't cooked well enough" should be held until AFTER the meal is served, don't you agree?

[Artimus]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onixAnd at this same time, Nintendo is finally admitting that they failed to perfect the analog controller with the Cube. And that they're trying again with the shell. I've got mixed feelings on the matter. On the one hand, I think they're right to make improvements. On the other, I wonder if maybe they're a little too late for that. They've moved on to the Revmote. Also, the GCN controller didn't exactly suck, and any improvements would likely be minor. Is that significant enough to justify an incompatible redesign? Should we just allow Nintendo to go back on their 2002 claims, and make similar new claims, without raking them over the coals a little? I think I'm starting to ramble, but those are just some of my thoughts on the matter.

I don't know about you, but people consistantly (and rightly) complain about the issue of ports. The only problem with the GCN controller is the Z-button, which is mostly useless. Otherwise it's the best controller out there. It has the best sticks, the best shoulder triggers, a very good button configuration and is extremely comfortable. But if you're going to make a shell almost exclusively so certain games can be ported, it makes NO sense not to at least change the controller so it's exactly mapable with the other two systems.

Also, who says the GCN setup isn't the ideal setup? The fact that more people bought the XBOX and PS2 and therefore companies make control schemes requiring more buttons doesn't necessarily indicate Nintendo's design is inferior.

There's just not making you happy. If Nintendo didn't update the shell they'd be screwing over fans by ruining ports (again). If they do change it you claim bloody murder for some reason you still haven't explained.

There has never been a system in history where you didn't need a new controller to play the new games for it. The closest you have is Dual Shock to DS2, and there's no need to point out that that's the one time when a brand new controller SHOULD have been made. Nintendo is improving a design so that the maximum number of games can be played on the Revolution as possible. You can use the GCN controller to play GCN games, and likely NES-N64 games. You need the shell (and likely added functionality) to play new games. Makes perfect sense, the best of both worlds. To me that's a good thing. But to you, nothing is right and nothing is enough.

[ruby_onix]

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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
I think saying things like "The meal isn't cooked well enough" should be held until AFTER the meal is served, don't you agree?

Nintendo wouldn't. If they did, they'd keep ending up with failures.

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Originally posted by: Artimus
I don't know about you, but people consistantly (and rightly) complain about the issue of ports.

I don't think the issue is ports. I think the issue is being capable of playing conventional game styles.

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There's just not making you happy. If Nintendo didn't update the shell they'd be screwing over fans by ruining ports (again). If they do change it you claim bloody murder for some reason you still haven't explained.

I'm not really "claiming bloody murder". And I guess the simplest explanation is "options". I think they should make the shell as good as they can, but we don't know what Nintendo's going to do with it, and if a Rev game comes out that happens to be fully-playable with a GCN controller, and if the Rev has four GameCube controller ports, then you should be able to do that.

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There has never been a system in history where you didn't need a new controller to play the new games for it.

There's been a clear reason for every change, and I think the reason needs to be good enough. Needing custom link cables for the GameBoy micro is an example I'd give of the reason not being good enough. The Revmote is a good reason. I'm worried that the Shell might not be a good enough reason.

[Artimus]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix

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Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
I think saying things like "The meal isn't cooked well enough" should be held until AFTER the meal is served, don't you agree?

Nintendo wouldn't. If they did, they'd keep ending up with failures.

I don't really like Ian, but at least he has the decency to make sense!

[IceCold]

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Nintendo wouldn't. If they did, they'd keep ending up with failures.

Hate to break it to you, but you're not part of Nintendo. You have absolutely no idea about what the shell is going to be like.. So you can't reasonably comment on how good or bad it is.

EDIT: What I'm saying is based on the assumption that Ruby implied (took me a while to figure out his post) that if Nintendo waited until after a controller was released to say that it is not good enough, they would keep ending up with failures.  

EDIT 2: I hear you Artimus  

[KDR_11k]

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Originally posted by: Infernal Monkey
But even the Mega Drive let me use Master System control pads, didn't matter that they lacked a button and made most games unplayable! Revolution isn't worth my time now!

And the Master System let me use C64 joysticks.

Ruby: Ian Sane RPing?

[IceCold]

Ruby: Why are you ignoring the fact that the Cube controller can't play N64 games?

[ShyGuy]

Wait, wait wait. Let's get to the important question here.

Bill, what kind of cookie are you betting? Is it an Oreo?

[KDR_11k]

It's a cheatcake.

[Mario]

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Now Nintendo's revolutionizing again, with a 3D space controller. And if you ask me, it's far from perfect.

lol

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I don't really like Ian, but at least he has the decency to make sense!

Agreed. Who is this guy and what has he done with ruby_onix

[ruby_onix]

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Originally posted by IceCold
Ruby: Why are you ignoring the fact that the Cube controller can't play N64 games?

I don't really know what to say on that subject. I think too little has been said by Nintendo about the shell/shells to match with everyone's opinions on them.

That said, even if the shell has the full capabilities of an N64 controller (right down to the expansion slot), I don't see why Nintendo wouldn't let people use GameCube devices whenever they fit the situation.

But, as the original newspost suggested, Nintendo might be trying to force Revmote functionality down every Rev game's throat.

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Originally posted by Mario
Who is this guy and what has he done with ruby_onix

Happy?

[KDR_11k]

But, as the original newspost suggested, Nintendo might be trying to force Revmote functionality down every Rev game's throat.

They want to force it down developers' throats because otherwise we'll just see graphically inferior ports of games that don't use any of the Rev's features. Or they want to enforce consistency and make sure devs won't have to fear penalties inrevies if they choose not to support GC controllers in their games.

[Nile Boogie]

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Originally posted by: KDR_11k
But, as the original newspost suggested, Nintendo might be trying to force Revmote functionality down every Rev game's throat.

They want to force it down developers' throats because otherwise we'll just see graphically inferior ports of games that don't use any of the Rev's features. Or they want to enforce consistency and make sure devs won't have to fear penalties inrevies if they choose not to support GC controllers in their games.

You are absolutely right on point. Now I understand. Thanks thats helps me understand the logic behind this move. Maybe somebody can answer this ? Why do people say the GameCube controller wont work for N64 games. Can't the C-stick replace the c-buttons. No expert am I but I can't fathom one N64 game where you have to press any 3 C-buttons at once or any two that are opposite of each other. Help me out on this one.

[KirbySStar]

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Originally posted by: Nile BoogieMaybe somebody can answer this ? Why do people say the GameCube controller wont work for N64 games. Can't the C-stick replace the c-buttons. No expert am I but I can't fathom one N64 game where you have to press any 3 C-buttons at once or any two that are opposite of each other. Help me out on this one.

Because it would make playing Star Fox 64 hell!


Twisting side to side, Barrel Roll, Hovering with tank
N64: Z + R
Cube: Z + R are right next to each other, Z would have to be remapped to L


But here's the main issue:

Loop
N64: analog down + C-left
Cube: analog down + c-stick left

U-turn
N64: analog down + C-down
Cube: analog down + c-stick down

So what happens when you perform analog down and c-stick diagonally down-left?  Digital prevails in precision.  Also take a look at where the c-stick is located on the cube controller.  It is far below the A and B buttons.  However on the N64 the c buttons are located neatly to the right of the A and B buttons.  C-left and C-down in particular are right next to A and B.  Pressing those buttons is done very easily.  You cannot say the same for c-stick down and left on the cube controller.  You have to move your hand way too far.  The only way to correct this is mapping Loop and U-turn to X and Y on the cube controller.

So far the only way of fixing these games is to remap certain buttons.  This is really defeating the purpose.  What if you start getting games which use a lot more buttons.  Are you going to have to remap these buttons to pressing two cube buttons at the same time ala Soul Calibur II?

The only way Nintendo can really get the virtual console working very easily for N64 games is by using the controller shell.  If they don't then they have to go through a shitload of remapping games to the cube controller which doesn't work as well.

They can save face if they include the controller shell with the revmote.  I hope they do this.  I really hope they do.  

[Jonnyboy117]

Bongos for revolution are probably not necessary since you can just use two Revmotes like drumsticks.

[Artimus]

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Originally posted by: Jonnyboy117
Bongos for revolution are probably not necessary since you can just use two Revmotes like drumsticks.

Get outta here, your logic and good common sense is not allowed on these forums! We have no room for such things!

[KirbySStar]

How does one clap with two revmotes in one's hands?  Nevermind the fact that you'd lose all haptic sense of hitting bongos with your open hands all the while fu(king up your revmotes with the constant table beatings.  I hope you aren't using something expensive as the drum surface.

I'm sure that in rare cases like this Nintendo will either let you use the cube ports or they will have an accessory that comes out of the revmote if necessary.

The point you people are missing is that Nintendo is trying to standardize control on Revolution games.  Unless it's something completely crazy and happens to be beyond the revmote plus adaptor's capabilities then Nintendo is forcing developers to use the revmote, nunchuck, controller shell, and any future accessories for the revmote.

[Artimus]

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Originally posted by: KirbySStar
How does one clap with two revmotes in one's hands?  Nevermind the fact that you'd lose all haptic sense of hitting bongos with your open hands all the while fu(king up your revmotes with the constant table beatings.  I hope you aren't using something expensive as the drum surface.

You don't HIT a surface, silly. You hit something on screen, or air! More like a snare drum than a bongo.