Author Topic: Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?  (Read 46794 times)

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Offline Requiem

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #75 on: January 11, 2006, 11:57:39 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"Zelda REV will be BETTER (control wise) because TP has REV features. End of story. You can't argue that fact."

That's not a fact so it's pretty easy to argue.  None of us have played with a Rev controller.  The only indication that it's "better" is that Nintendo said so and they're obviously a pretty biased source for that kind of info.  Personally I find the idea of playing current generation games on the remote very unappealing.  The lack of buttons to me suggests a huge compromise will have to be made in order to shoehorn controls designed for six buttons into two.

To say that TP will be improved by the Rev controls requires incredible faith in Nintendo.  I will agree that the game probably won't be worse unless they have to retool everything or compromise any ideas that would have worked with just the Cube controller but not with both.  But to declare the controls will be improved as factual just doesn't make sense.


Ian, you totally didn't get what I was saying. Let me rephrase: If TP were to have REV features, it would make the Zelda REV CONTROLS automatically better. I am not saying the REVmote will be better than a normal controller. Since the control scheme is setup for the REV in TP, it allows the next Zelda that uses REV controls (i.e. Zelda REV) to gain feedback and make changes within the scheme; thus, making it better automatically (unless its perfect to begin with).

That's all I was saying.

Mantidor, you realize that you had NO IDEA that this was the reason of the delay when they made the announcement. Sure you were frustrated, but you accepted that gameplay changes were more important to you than you playing it last November. What's the difference? You already accepted it!
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #76 on: January 11, 2006, 12:22:46 PM »
"Ian, you totally didn't get what I was saying. Let me rephrase: If TP were to have REV features, it would make the Zelda REV CONTROLS automatically better. I am not saying the REVmote will be better than a normal controller. Since the control scheme is setup for the REV in TP, it allows the next Zelda that uses REV controls (i.e. Zelda REV) to gain feedback and make changes within the scheme; thus, making it better automatically (unless its perfect to begin with).

That's all I was saying."

Ah I see.  It's like TP is somewhat of a test run to see how well Rev controls will work with Zelda.  Yeah that makes sense.

Offline Ceric

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #77 on: January 11, 2006, 02:28:39 PM »
Just to clear something up that was a while back.  It's already been stated that the Revolution will be using all the same API's as the Gamecube and rumor has it it will also use teh same assembly.  So GCN is not emulated it is just ran.  Now on the topic of SSBM  that game already has a surprising amount of hooks.  You can get trophies in the game now for games that weren't a glimmer in Nintendos eyes at the time.  If any game would have a hook to let you change something in it's gameplay that would be my bet.
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Offline mantidor

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #78 on: January 11, 2006, 04:28:06 PM »
ok now the long answer,

First, Requiem  you talk about the Wind Waker like if it was a radical change, it isnt, it isnt the OoT of anything because the game expanded again  what OoT and Majora's Mask did, it perfected the controls, thanks in part to the wonderful GC controller, and in part of its excellent design. Your comparison with Majoras Mask makes no sense to me whatsoever.

"Zelda REV will be BETTER (control wise) because TP has REV features. End of story. You can't argue that fact."

No, thats hardly a fact, and its the reason Im glad you dont work at Nintendo and I hope you never will, because and Im repeating myself again again and again TP is a Gamecube game. Its core is the GC controller, Im confident Nintendo wont be as mediocre as to implement old gameplay mechanics using the remote for the real Zelda rev, it will be something completly fresh. Miyamoto said it himself, "this is the last Zelda game as we know it" and its  pretty obvious why, as Ian has said in many posts, it would be terrible if all that Nintendo does is map functions that are done with a button to a movement or gesture in the remote, Im personally expecting an OoT level of change for the real Zelda Revolution, there arent more dimensions to explore (please do not talk nonsense about the fourth dimension ), but what the remote will bring will be almost parallel to the 2D-3D jump, thats the kind of hype I have right now.

Im going to try to explain myself with Metroid Prime, the interface becomes transparent not only because of the controller and its functionality, but because of its superb design, we dont notice it of course (and that means its an awesome game), but the game, its levels and enemies are carefully design to  take advantage of the control scheme, and the control scheme is tied to the limitations of the controller itself, hence the lock on feature. The way we kill bosses for instance, it isnt like Super Metroid, where quick reflexes were more important, but its more like a puzzle, remember how the last boss is? for Metroid Prime 3 I expect something unbelievable, lock on should be completly gone, puzzles would be trully a 3D experience, because the controller is no longer limited. Would mapping the remote to MP2 help MP3 gameplay mechanics? not at all. I have the same thoughts about Zelda.

"It is absolutely NOTHING like that. Adding functionality has the possibility of making the controls even more transparent. Is that a bad thing? You said it yourself, Nintendo is a master at this sort of thing. Do you actually expect them to half-ass it?"

Thats where I think you just dont get what makes Nintendo games so great, again, TP is a damn GC game, and thats its core, the only way to not make mediocre remote interface for me would be to make the game from scratch,  to completly overhaul it. Sure fishing would be a cool thing, but its nothing more than a gimm!ck ( gimm!ck has such a negative tone in the gaming community, but for me it isnt a bad thing, its just not the awesome excellence Im acostumed with Zelda games)

"If this is true, TP will be the example of what it means to be a REV game. It will have the side-by-side comparison that is needed to prove the concept. What other franchise would be better than the critically accliamed Zelda, the game of all games? If Zelda works marvelously, then it must be good for gaming."

oh god lets hope thats not the case, it would be really bad if we compare TP GC mechanics with its Rev counterparts, thats like comparing how  LttP is with the Dpad and with the analog stick if it was ever implemented  (as dumb as many of you think this comparison is for me is very relevant), better to compare it with Ocarina of Time gameplay mechanics, or in this case, Zelda Rev gameplay mechanics.

"Is that it IceCold and Mantidor? Are you afraid that the original game will be somehow altered or lost? What proof do you have to arouse (sp?) such fear?"

Its the same case with you, have you any proof that these unconfirmed Revolution features will indeed make the real Zelda Revolution better?

I dont think the original core TP game will be altered siginificantly (although Id prefer alot more that instead of these added functionality, they would stick to their promise and focus all their efforts to create the ultimate "traditional" Zelda game), but I cant see these added features as nothing else that a cheap move to give an extra push to the Rev, which for me its completly unnecesary.

"Sorry Mantidor, lol. But if the only thing upsetting you is needing to wait longer for TP then you really should just say that and not imply that Nintendo is wasting their time and doing something pointless on the level of delaying LttP to add analog stick functions.-"

Well I dont think this is pointless, it has a specific purpose, to promote the Revolution even more. It is a waste for me because I think the remote is fully capable of a lot more than just mapping old gen gameplay mechanics, its almost Virtual Reality, This wont trully show what its capable of, kind of the same way that analog in aLttP wont show the real capabilities of an analog stick ( I personally think that the remote is even a bigger change and improvement that what the analog stick was in its time).

I know that for you Im way overreacting but Im a Nintendo fanboy and particulary a Zelda fanboy, I tend to over-analyze things related to them Now Ill finish my bottle of wine, I hope these post was understandable (I shouldnt post drunk but its my birthday )
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Offline Shecky

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RE: Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #79 on: January 11, 2006, 04:45:17 PM »
The delay is because the game wasn't finished, that's what mantidor is saying and is what I've also expressed and agree with.

All of you can keep wishfully thinking that you'll essentially get two games for the price of one.  Tell me why it is not in Nintendo best interest to release TP and then release a different title for the REV - likely using a slightly modified engine in roughly a year.  You'd have two distinct and bona fide titles because the REV title could make use of the "REVmote" in ways that could provide a unique and intuitive experience not easily translated to a gamecube controller.

I had a challenge outstanding in one of the other threads... think of a clever bit of game play that utilizes the "REVmote" and its features.  A game scenario if you will.  Then make it work effectively with a gamecube controller.

Offline IceCold

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #80 on: January 11, 2006, 04:48:39 PM »
It was determined long ago. This game was made for the GCN and REV. The first of its kind. The best of the franchises.

I don't know about that... I'm having a really hard time believing that the Rev controller was already finalised when TP first started being developed.

From a business perspective, this probably is a good idea.. I'm not denying that. However, I would be angry because..

They would be essentially delaying the game to add in features that you can't even use unless you buy a Rev, which many Cube owners will not. So the GameCube owners will get cheated, since first they have to wait longer for a game when the system hasn't had meaningful support for a long time, but ALSO they won't even be able to use the features that caused the delay..

And I can't really explain it, but I want the first Zelda on the Revolution to be ... pure.. I want it to be like OoT, where it shocks the world with how brilliant it is, and it uses everything the Rev has to offer, just like OoT did for the 64. Everything.. Just putting controls into TP will ruin it for me, and I definitely don't want it to be experimental as you are saying. THAT's why I don't like this - I want to feel like I did with Super Mario Bros or Super Mario 64 when I first played them. If this comes out first, it will cheapen the whole thing for me.

Maybe I'm too sentimental though..  
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Offline Artimus

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RE: Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #81 on: January 11, 2006, 04:57:34 PM »
I still say the game should be Rev only...

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #82 on: January 11, 2006, 04:59:45 PM »
IT'S ALLLLL GOOOOOD.

RELEASE THE DAMN GAME ALREADY.
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #83 on: January 11, 2006, 07:15:02 PM »
Does anyone else find it suspicious that the publication that printed this rumor (which Nintendo denied) says a high ranking official at Nintendo leaked the information to them, and suddenly Merrick has to pack up his bags.  
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #84 on: January 11, 2006, 07:17:27 PM »
conspiracy theory?

or

fact?

I bet we'll never know.

But would they really fire him for leaking that little bit of info?
Was that supposed to be a big surprise? Most of us expected it as it was the only way to justify delaying a game that was nearly finished for this long.

Offline Kairon

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RE: Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #85 on: January 11, 2006, 07:39:27 PM »
I actually agree with you all about being scared that this will affect the magic of the game. That's why I keep coming back to Miyamoto. Without him, there wouldn't be Zelda. If he said that Zelda games should never be made anymore, then that's it. I mean, I even dislike the Aonouma Zelda's precisely because I can't feel Miyamoto's touch in the latest Zelda games. For me, the Zelda magic has been dead virtually since OoT. So if you think you guys got it tough, imagine losing interest in both MM AND WW yet still calling yourself a Zelda fanboy.

So in the end my eyes are on Miyamoto. He's the source of whatever magic is captured in a Zelda game, and the only thing I really CAN do is to trust in him. We'll see whether this is the thrid Zelda game in a row that I dislike, but until then I have to trust in the father of Mario to do his best, and reserve my judgement on whether this news is a good thing, or a bad thing, in terms of the game's quality.

Of course, as a business move, I'd think it would make plenty of sense. I just have to hope Miyamoto isn't letting a business move ruin Zelda, I have to trust him when he says that they're delaying it to add in some those really awesome things like they allege.

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Offline Requiem

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RE: Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #86 on: January 12, 2006, 04:16:28 AM »
Ok Manditor and IceCold. I've understood since we started debating. This whole time I have been trying to aleaviate (sp?) any worry or fear that you might have about this decision, but I guess it runs deeper than I had hoped.

IceCold:

You want Zelda REV to be special and I understand that fact. But, why can't TP be that special game you have envisioned Zelda REV to be? Why is TP already alienated? Is it because of, dare I say, the graphics? Is it because it was announced as a GameCube game first?

I feel the ONLY reason Nintendo kept TP as a GC game was because they had already announced it as such. If they suddenly switched it to ReV, they would essentially be turning there back on those who are anticipating its arrival. Thus, pissing off far more gamers in comparison to if they added ReV functionality.

And why would gamer's feel cheated? They can still play the entire game on the GCN. The adding of features is basically a huge extra for those that take the next step. It is first and foremost a GC game, but its secondlly a REV game. Is that  bad? Wouldn't you like all your games to have something extra if you purchased the next system up? For example, your gba game when plugged into the DS now has touch-screen capability. Is that such a bad thing?

I don't know about that... I'm having a really hard time believing that the Rev controller was already finalised when TP first started being developed.

Maybe so, but during developement, specifically after the announcement made by Gyration, they must of considered the possibility. And frankly, that's enough, even if you don't have the actual control finalized. They can still juggle ideas back and forth. Just like how I made an entire control and camera scheme based on nothing but what the REVmote is suppose to do.

Manditor:

Wow, first off, alot of words to chew there. All start with this one...sorry to qoute rape

Would mapping the remote to MP2 help MP3 gameplay mechanics? not at all. I have the same thoughts about Zelda.

Yes it would. MP2 would essentially be a test-run, as Ian eloquintely named. Maybe not a test run in our eyes. Hell it could play perfectly to us. But to Retro, that would be their first try at a new control scheme, and it can only get better the more they try. The same holds true with all games, even Zelda.

No, thats hardly a fact, and its the reason Im glad you dont work at Nintendo and I hope you never will

Oh come on. I can't be all that bad . I did, infact, predict something to the affect of the REVmote by the way .

I'm confident Nintendo wont be as mediocre as to implement old gameplay mechanics using the remote for the real Zelda rev, it will be something completly fresh. Miyamoto said it himself, "this is the last Zelda game as we know it" and its pretty obvious why, as Ian has said in many posts, it would be terrible if all that Nintendo does is map functions that are done with a button to a movement or gesture in the remote, Im personally expecting an OoT

As much as I'd like this to be true, the REV really can't change the game that much. I mean, think about  it. Is Zelda going to be Third-Person? Probably. Well, that automatically means it will have some sort of camera like the one we see today, but maybe more precise. Will Link have an arsenal of weapons and items? Most likely. Well, that means that we must have some way to quickly access those items/weapons, so something to the affect of the c-stick will be present. Will  Link attack with a sword? Almost definitely. So that means something to the affect of a "B" button will be present....

And it goes on and on. You really can't change the game all that much (assuming it stays third-person) or it becomes a different game. Maybe I'm not thinking out of the box enough, but I see the collaboration of what Nintedno learned while moving into 3-D and the ReVmote providing the best result for Zelda. When the two are used sybiotically, it'll make the BEST Zelda.

TP is a damn GC game, and thats its core, the only way to not make mediocre remote interface for me would be to make the game from scratch, to completly overhaul it

But why? Are you saying that the puzzles need to be controller orientated? Is that what you were trying to say with the MP example? Well if that's true, then I just told you that Zelda REV cannot change drastically. The controls can only become more transparent. Sure there may be a couple context-sensitive situation where you can control Link's hand to achieve some goal, but for the most part it'll look like Zelda games from the past, only more interactive (therefore more fun). Again, maybe we have different visions of the future Zelda, but I just can't see how it can all the sudden become some different entity.

In my mind, Zelda is the perfect example of how to make a third-person game. Zelda in third-person, is Zelda in optimum form. Adding the Revmote can only make it more interactive and more intuitive. It can't completely change the game. You'll just be able to control more things, and control them precisely. So if you could tell me just exactly what your expecting and how adding rev-capabilities to TP will hender that expection, then I may understand you.

it would be really bad if we compare TP GC mechanics with its Rev counterparts

Again, you think there is going to be some huge change to the gameplay. I just don't get that. It can only become more precise and more involved. What do you have in mind for Zelda REV?

It's the same case with you, have you any proof that these unconfirmed Revolution features will indeed make the real Zelda Revolution better?

Read my comment about your MP comparison. (under the first bold qoute)

It is a waste for me because I think the remote is fully capable of a lot more than just mapping old gen gameplay mechanics, its almost Virtual Reality, This wont trully show what its capable of, kind of the same way that analog in aLttP wont show the real capabilities of an analog stick

Maybe so, but that is a problem that you must change yourself. Your expecting something akin to virtual reality. Your expectations are too high. Yes you maybe able to control Link's sword with your hand, but isn't that mapping old gen gameplay to new gen mechanics?

What are you expecting?    
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Offline mantidor

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #87 on: January 12, 2006, 04:49:59 AM »
I cant also see how a huge change can be made to the game, but thats why I love Nintendo, those guys are geniuses, could we even slightly predict Ocarina's gameplay mechanics back when a Link to the Past was released? or games like Pikmin or the way Metroid Prime end up being? ("first person for Metroid? heresy!" people said back in those days) Nintendo really thinks outside the box, and thats why Im as hyped as I am for the Rev, specially for its Zelda game. I shouldnt have used the term Virtual Reality though, because thats really not what Im expecting, Im expecting more like a radical change in the lines of the 2D-3D jump, its not a crazy idea, this time we are also adding another dimension, but to the controller.

Over hype is a bad thing, but its Nintendos fault! after the initial shock of "OMg a remote !?!?" I could finally get the controller and that made realize that we are in for really great things if Nintendo trully delivers. I really, really dont want it to be used as an extra feature for the last GC game, it "cheapens" the remote as well a the game itself, somehow the game wont feel "complete" for me for lack of a better word .

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Offline IceCold

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #88 on: January 12, 2006, 07:20:43 AM »
I agree with you that cancelling it for GameCube would be a bigger mistake than adding Rev functionality. But I feel that if Nintendo were to do this, I would much rather they didn't announce it for the GCN from the beginning, and just work for it with the Revolution in mind.

But, why can't TP be that special game you have envisioned Zelda REV to be? Why is TP already alienated? Is it because of, dare I say, the graphics? Is it because it was announced as a GameCube game first?

Because it won't take full advantage of everything the Rev has to offer, and therefore it won't be the complete and polished Rev game that I want. The true Zelda Revolution will push the controls and the Rev hardware, not only for graphics but to do things that the GameCube hardware just isn't able to (like how Pikmin couldn't be done on the N64). And at the very beginning of the development of this Zelda, Nintendo will be thinking about the Rev controls all the way, unlike TP. So that's why TP can't be the special Rev game for me..

And why would gamer's feel cheated? They can still play the entire game on the GCN.

Yes, they can play the game on GCN... a few months LATER with nothing added for their benefit unless they buy a Revolution..
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Offline Requiem

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RE: Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #89 on: January 12, 2006, 08:19:10 AM »
Good points.

I finally see what you mean in regards to why TP can't be Zelda REV. But look at it this way, TP is an appetizer for Zelda REV. The control scheme will wet our mouths and envoke our hunger. Plus, even if TP were to be released last November (assuming this delay was soley because of forwards-compatibility), Zelda REV wouldn't come out till two or three years later anyway. So, instead of being disgruntle about the situation, be pleased that you can play something zelda and REV related till the actual Zelda comes out later.

That's why I'm all for it. I would have played TP (assuming its the best Zelda yet) at least 2 or 3 times anyways. Now, I'll probably play it 6 times!
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Offline JonLeung

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #90 on: January 25, 2006, 02:07:04 PM »

Offline Caterkiller

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #91 on: January 25, 2006, 02:15:17 PM »
I want that!
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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #92 on: January 25, 2006, 03:47:04 PM »
I want that!

?

Forward Compatibility, I thought I made that up. :-)
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Offline zakkiel

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #93 on: January 25, 2006, 04:28:00 PM »
They would be essentially delaying the game to add in features that you can't even use unless you buy a Rev, which many Cube owners will not.

You are not being "cheated" by having Zelda delayed, even assuming it is for forwards compatibility reasons only. You'll get just as much enjoyment out of it if you get it six months from now as if you'd had it last month. In any case, Nintendo has no reason to cater to people who ahve already decided not to buy their next generation.
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Offline Nosferat2

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #94 on: January 25, 2006, 06:18:56 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Artimus
I still say the game should be Rev only...


I second that.

Offline IceCold

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #95 on: January 26, 2006, 11:46:51 AM »
You are not being "cheated" by having Zelda delayed, even assuming it is for forwards compatibility reasons only. You'll get just as much enjoyment out of it if you get it six months from now as if you'd had it last month. In any case, Nintendo has no reason to cater to people who ahve already decided not to buy their next generation.

Yeah, you'll get the same enjoyment. But you'll still have to wait six extra months for no use.. And this is at a time when the GameCube has precious few games coming out, so obviously people will have bad feelings towards Nintendo. And Nintendo's job is to cater to the GameCube owners. What if they're undecided on whether to buy a Revolution? Do you think that a move like this will endear them to Nintendo?
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Offline zakkiel

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RE:Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #96 on: January 26, 2006, 12:33:36 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: IceCold


Yeah, you'll get the same enjoyment. But you'll still have to wait six extra months for no use.. And this is at a time when the GameCube has precious few games coming out, so obviously people will have bad feelings towards Nintendo. And Nintendo's job is to cater to the GameCube owners. What if they're undecided on whether to buy a Revolution? Do you think that a move like this will endear them to Nintendo?
 A move like this gives them incentive to try the Revolution. Myself, I have no patience with those who whine about delays. They happen all the time. Get used to it. If someone decides not to buy a next generation system based on a delay in a game schedule, from my perspective that's just one fewer stupid person to run into in the Revolution's online service.

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Offline Requiem

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RE: Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #97 on: February 08, 2006, 08:12:08 AM »
New.....news.....

http://revo-europe.com/news.php?nid=8803

Quote

Reggie: Exactly. I think that our senior management has made it very clear that bringing Zelda: Twilight Princess out on GameCube is important, that we want to satisfy the GameCube fan base and have it be on that system. You've said the obvious, which is that [because] Revolution's backward compatible, it will almost effectively be a launch title for Revolution. The trick will be what makes it special to play on Revolution, and to the extent that we could create something like that, boy, wouldn't that be fantastic? Certainly one of the things that I would love to see is something that makes Zelda, when it's played on Revolution, do something magical. And I think that any Nintendo fan would love to see that.


A Reggie interview that blatantly hints at TP being able to use the REVmote. He doesn't go into detial about the types of possibilities, but he does stress that it will do something "magical" and "special."

A fishing game with REV controls sounds great, but magical?.........hardly...

We are in for a treat...  
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #98 on: February 08, 2006, 08:42:39 AM »
When I play TP on Rev, it better give me freshly-baked fudge brownies instantly.  THAT'S MAGICKAL.
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Offline Ian Sane

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RE: Rumour come True? Zelda: TP Forward Compatible?
« Reply #99 on: February 08, 2006, 08:52:34 AM »
Any "magical" extras for Twilight Princess better be impossible to do on the Gamecube.  So in that case they better use the remote in a big way (or online support I guess).  If it's just something like the Advance shop in the Oracles games where it is perfectly doable on the old hardware but the game just "checks" to see if you're using the new hardware then that would be pretty unfair to Cube owners.  We've put up with a lot of crap, especially in the last year, and we deserve better.  Anything that only requires Gamecube hardware should be playable on the Gamecube.  Period.

Though I imagine if it was just Cube content locked away you could probably find it with a Gameshark.  That's not an excuse because then I still have to pay extra money but it would be a workaround at least.