Topic: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN

[BigJim]

"As for Nintendo being unwilling to lose money, are we forgetting that Nintendo is not a Microsoft-like gigantic corporation? What would sinking billions of dollars into a failed cube online plan have done for Nintendo? Aside from making Ian happy, I mean?"

They fought going online because they said it wasn't profitable. Now here we are with a free service starting to ramp up. I would love to know what changed their minds, exactly. What's profitable about a free service now that wouldn't have been the case on GameCube... They could have been a match-maker with Cube. They were being bull-headed. But that's changed now. So great.

Nintendo doesn't have to sink to MS or Sony levels of spending. But they can be a well run business while also being relevant to industry trends at the same time. New controller? Ok, it may be a good idea on paper. It's either awesome or a non sequitur. We'll see what happens. They don't have to BE the competition to compete. Just be relevant.

They're almost like the biggest mom and pop company in the world. Their "Wal-Mart" competitors are bleeding money out the ass while their little shop does well. That's fine, but it comes with the problems we've seen that affect us more than it does Nintendo. Lack of options, lack of support. etc.  This is what I meant back when I said it wasn't all about Nintendo. If they focus more on scale (less profit per customer, but more customers) they could shake things up considerably and still be a well oiled machine. Long term outlook matters just as much as next quarter's results... I know that's blasphemy on Wall Street, but it's true.

Their approach these days feels like they're squeezing fewer customers for maximum profit. Mario has turned out to be quite the athlete for a portly 3-footer.

[eljefe]

As a company, and as a collective of artists, they can't possibly please everyone. Neither can MS or Sony.

Each company has decide who they are willing to frustrate and who they are able to please.

Unfortunately for Big Jim, Ian Sane, and heinous, you are on Nintendo's list to please.  

[PaLaDiN]

"And Paladin, please clarify yourself."

All right I don't know how to make it any clearer. The person I "insulted" obviously realized it was a joke, so I'm not sure why everybody else didn't.

Forget about carbon-copying Sony or Microsoft... Nintendo didn't carbon-copy them this generation, it just used their approach and that didn't work. It seems to me like everything you guys are saying about what Nintendo should do... they already did this generation, and it didn't work. So now you're telling them to do it again and you expect me to think that's a good idea?

Ian's never made a good point about what Nintendo did wrong this generation. You can argue all you want about "no online" being the reason Nintendo didn't do as well as the others, but I call bull. So few people actually used online last gen that it was a non-factor. Microsoft spun the Live numbers like crazy but at the end of the day, userbase percentage wise, it was a dismal failure that only got slightly better near the end. Even Halo 2 couldn't push more Xbox Live users... if it had, we would have heard about it.

So then you start being all confused about "What's profitable about a free service now that wouldn't have been the case on GameCube"? The answer is simple. Free = number of people aren't negligible anymore. Haven't you seen what happened with Mario Kart DS? Do you think they're being profit-minded with a free service? Don't you think maybe they were holding off on online until they could implement it for free without bleeding out their ass? Don't you think maybe online now has enough people who care about it to be worth implementing? What's your answer for the huge disparity between Xbox Live and Mario Kart online percentages? Are you going to tell me Mario Kart was more popular than Halo 2?

No, obviously Nintendo looked at how Xbox Live was hemorrhaging money and thought "I got to get me some of that". Typical bull-headed Nintendo, always last to make the decisions that make sense.

You know some of you guys would make a lot more sense if you didn't always assume "Nintendo never makes a logical decision".

[Plugabugz]

"Ian's never made a good point about what Nintendo did wrong this generation."

I can, two of them. Europe is one. Australia is another.

Useless marketing by advertising games in a manner that the USA/Japan would liken to (and i've shown several of those), releasing the wrong type of games at the wrong time of year (Mario Strikers after Pro Evolution 5). The 6-8 month delays, STILL, despite it being said by Nintendo 2 years ago that Europe would be a more prominent in their plans. Nintendo WiFi website launching 3 weeks after the first online game was released, despite ads being shown before it's launch.

I won't go into what they are doing wrong in another territory, but here they need to focus on breaking the typical afterthought attitude they stick here and actually releasing games, particularly ones that suit the region, in a more timely manner. Third parties manage it.

I might as well be the Ian of Europe

[PaLaDiN]

Heh. All right, those are good points.

I doubt they'll make Nintendo that much better at US market share though. I mean that seems to be the measuring stick of success that we're using.

[Kairon]

Sadly, the business side of Nintendo's affairs in Europe and Australia have been substandard for generations.

But these are management problems and have little to do with Nintendo's overall gameplan of the future of gaming. Still, this makes me sad that Merrick is returning to NOA. NOE needs a strong leader to whip them back into shape and with Merrick going away, I just don't know what'll happen in those...understandably smaller, yet still embarassing markets.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Ian Sane]

"Ian's never made a good point about what Nintendo did wrong this generation."

Sure I have.  What Nintendo did wrong this generation is that they had to prove that the "failure" of the N64 was a fluke and that without the cartridge limitation they could offer something comparable to the competition.  The problem was that when it was time to impress everyone and show they were still with it they screwed up a lot.  Most of them were by themselves small things but they f*cked up simple stuff that anybody who has played game for more than two weeks could pull off.  This made them look incompetent and out-of-touch.  What sort of idiot makes it impossible to make third party component cables and then makes their cables only available online?  Who would use purple as the primary colour?  Why would you make memory cards 8 times smaller than the competition and then charge the same price?  What's the point of releasing a demo disc is someone has to buy a new console to get it?  These are easy things to pull off and Nintendo screwed them up.  That doesn't give someone confidence in your product.

There was also the one two punch of making the shortest first party game in the linep the flagship title and then following it up with a huge drought of virtually no games at all.  When people complain about big breaks between games on your previous console this is the LAST thing you want to have happen within the first three months after launch.  The marketing sucked of course and largely still does.  Super Mario Sunshine's ad basically made people think the exact opposite about the game as was intented.  The switcheroo with the Zelda footage didn't do them any favours either.  The Spaceworld 2000 Zelda footage was the killer app.  People were going to buy a Cube for a Zelda that looked like that.  Then Nintendo, who had to fight off a k!ddy image, switched it with a cartoon and totally flushed the momentum away.  Not only was mature Zelda a killer app, it made Nintendo look cool.  It was helping fix their image.  Wind Waker made them look more childish and out-of-touch then ever before.  It was a great game in the end but it didn't sell Cubes.  Instead the Cube seller is going to end up being one of the last games released for the console.  Why didn't they do safe Zelda FIRST and then do risky cartoon Zelda?

No online was just the last straw.  That just confirmed how out-of-touch Nintendo was.  I don't think any of these things by themselves (except maybe the big drought) killed the Cube.  It was the combination.  For the first year or so of the Cube's life Nintendo seemed absolutely clueless and that was when they had to prove that the k!ddy image and the assumptions that they were out-of-touch or didn't know what they were doing were false.  They didn't and that's why the Cube flopped.

When Nintendo does almost everything right and still gets last place then you can say they can't compete.  But you can't look at a generation where they screwed up like 90% of the simple stuff any idiot could do right and say that.  I think that things would improve tremendously if they did pretty much what they did before but were on the ball and stopped doing stupid sh!t.  Now every generation it's going to get harder to get people to notice that but still.

As for Europe and Australia I think the key to Nintendo's problem there is to release the damn games.  There shouldn't be huge delays between the NA and European versions or NA first party games that don't get released in Europe.  Australia doesn't even have multiple languages like Europe does.  It should be just the PAL conversion that delays things.  I think Nintendo would greatly improve in those markets if they made quick PAL conversions of the NA version of games for Australia and the English-speaking European countries.  There's really no need to do anything else for those areas.  So the non-English versions still have to wait but I think that's better than everyone waiting.

Plus as a Canadian I'm pretty used to my entertainment having an American slant.  They still have American Thanksgiving in the Candian version of Animal Crossing.  Why not just let Europeans deal with that too?  It's still better than no game at all.

[Don'tHate742]

*Nothing*.  

[trip1eX]

So what are you trying to say?  That Nintendo is an idiot company, but you love them and can't leave them?   What does that make you?

 

[Deguello]

Wow... that was a whole bunch of words.  I'm not sure much was "said" though.

[PaLaDiN]

I'm sorry Mr. Sane, but I just don't buy it.

I look at your Litany of Recycled Complaints and whereas you seem to see "reasons Nintendo is not number one" all I see is "mistakes that if rectified would at best increase Nintendo's market share by a couple percent".

Until you can come up with more than that, you still haven't made a good point.

[Ian Sane]

"whereas you seem to see 'reasons Nintendo is not number one' all I see is 'mistakes that if rectified would at best increase Nintendo's market share by a couple percent'."

If that's what I see that's what I think.  What am I supposed to do?  Change my opinions because you don't come to the same conclusion I do?

One thing that's very interesting is ironically I have a more optimistic view regarding Nintendo.  I think they could do way better if they were more on the ball while the rest of you have this pessimistic idea that they're screwed with no hope beyond targeting a different market entirely.

[PaLaDiN]

"I think they could do way better if they were more on the ball while the rest of you have this pessimistic idea that they're screwed with no hope beyond targeting a different market entirely."

No, the thing is that you've got a different viewpoint of this whole thing. You're still seeing everything as a sports competition to win the cup, but it doesn't work that way. Nintendo fixing all their mistakes wouldn't let them win, it would just at best split the market into three sections and at worst do nothing because nobody cares about Nintendo anymore. Did you notice how Nintendo fixed a lot of your complaints in this gen but nothing happened? Did you notice how none of your complaints were as bad as the whole cartridge fiasco but Nintendo still did worse this gen?

I can't speak for everybody else but my pessimistic view of Nintendo's hopes is more a result of the current market than a statement on Nintendo itself. I love Nintendo's games but nobody seems to be giving them a chance, and I'm not convinced it's because they're screwing up. I think it's because for better or worse the market has been stuck in a rut ever since Sony came along and brought their "overwhelming hype sells anything" approach to games. You want Nintendo to be number one again? Throw out the current market and all the retarded crap that comes with it, show people why they started playing games in the first place, get other people playing games and addicted to games, and the current market will come around once they let go of the crap Sony and Microsoft have been feeding them for two generations now.

[Ian Sane]

"Did you notice how Nintendo fixed a lot of your complaints in this gen but nothing happened?"

Personally I don't think they fixed much.  They got rid of the cartridges but other than that didn't really do much else.  I'd say they did worse because when the N64 launched everyone thought it would dominate like the SNES did.  It didn't but it still sold enough systems during the time when people had faith in it that a lot of people owned one for the first few years at least.  Super Mario 64, Goldeneye and Ocarina of Time for example were played by damn near everyone.  The Cube didn't have that initial period of faith.  It was assumed that history would repeat itself and the Cube would not deliver like the N64 didn't.  And Nintendo didn't prove otherwise early on and made a lousy first impression.  Everyone assumed the same problems were going to repeat themselves and it seemed like they were going to so they did.

I think that same "Nintendo's console won't deliver" attitude will be there for the Rev.  But if Nintendo can make such a good impression early on they can prove otherwise and start going back up.  With the Cube it was like "oh Nintendo's going to be all k!ddy and have huge game delays again."  Then they saw Wind Waker and the Super Mario Sunshine commercial and the huge post-launch drought and said "see?  Told ya."  Avoiding that negative first impression at the very least can get Nintendo increasing their market share again.  It can get the press saying good things.  At the very least those who buy the console will feel more content and confident in it and that will help their image.

The Xbox started from nothing and never had a change at being number one but a year in their fanbase felt things were getting better and that their "brand" was constantly improving.  A year in Cube owners were depressed and felt that the same problems were going unaddressed and that they were basically on a sinking ship.  Negative morale kills a console because it spreads.  People owning a console and then trading it in and talking to their friends about how much it sucks has a huge effect.

[PaLaDiN]

"Personally I don't think they fixed much. They got rid of the cartridges but other than that didn't really do much else."

You misunderstand. I'm not talking about the beginning of the Cube's lifespan, I'm talking about its course. If those are really the reasons Nintendo isn't number one, how come:

a) New colors
b) A large number of great games
c) Better marketing
d) The new Zelda

... are doing absolutely nothing to push Cube sales up? What I'm saying is that it'll take more than just fixing mistakes to get Nintendo on top. People just aren't interested in Nintendo home consoles anymore. They're just another console maker with nothing special to offer except they don't have Sony's and Microsoft's money to throw around, and no amount of fixing mistakes will suddenly get people to notice them.

[Hostile Creation]

It's less about what Nintendo has done wrong and more about what Sony, as a corporation, has done right.  It's cool to own PS2, and that's all there is to it. Nintendo hasn't made any more mistakes than Sony (neither had worthwhile online support, for example), but Sony is still in the lead.  Due to marketing and word of mouth.

[Ian Sane]

"If those are really the reasons Nintendo isn't number one, how come:

a) New colors
b) A large number of great games
c) Better marketing
d) The new Zelda

... are doing absolutely nothing to push Cube sales up?"

Because it's too late for the Cube.  Once it was branded as a loser console it never had a chance.  What I'm talking about is making virtual no mistakes on their NEXT console.  Start off a new console without any obvious goof-ups and with consistent competence.  Nintendo could have literally done NOTHING wrong from 2003 onwards but it wouldn't have made a difference.

[Kairon]

Now who's being pessimistic?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[mjbd]

Even if Nintendo did everything you would consider to be "mistake free", they wouldnt take over the market.  For everyone who feels nintendo is messing up bad, they would have no chance of success if they did what you want them to do.  Nintendo can not compete head to head with Sony, and I think Microsoft is getting whatever marketshare Nintendo may have gotten, had they gone that route.  If you guys remember, when Cube dropped to $99, sales went through the roof.  People would buy a Cube for the exclusives at that price, even if they already owned a PS2 or X-box.  Same thing is gonna happen with Rev, you will have your core nintendo audience who owns a Rev as either their only or main system, you will have people who own a PS3 or X-box360 but buy a Rev for the exclusives, and then there are the non gamers who will buy it for the "pick up and play" software that will be available.  All in all, I wish E3 wasnt so damn far off.  Hopefully more and more info comes out in the next few month, but I must say that I havent heard any developers say they were unhappy with Rev, shouldnt that tell us something?  

[Kairon]

It seems to me that most of the problems we agree that Nintendo has...

Are MARKETING or MANAGEMENT problems. None of these problems (need to advertise, poor treatment of EU/AUS, the need to lie to gamers and fans, the need to capture mindshare), none of them, deal with the core values or ideas that Nintendo is driving towards, and given that light, I'd like to think that we can all agree that we're all hugely excited for the Rev.

Yay.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[BigJim]

"Each company has decide who they are willing to frustrate and who they are able to please. Unfortunately for Big Jim, Ian Sane, and heinous, you are on Nintendo's list to please."

Lucky me. My concern really IS Nintendo and their position in the market. Not my personal satisfaction, even though I am not perfectly content either. I'm ultimately interested in Nintendo's success and where I think they can improve because I am an analytical prick. As pessimistic as I may come across, I have been a big Nintendo fan for almost 20 years, and probably will be for a long time to come. I *care* and that's why I am concerned.

"It seems to me like everything you guys are saying about what Nintendo should do... they already did this generation, and it didn't work."

I don't know if you're including me in that comment. I'm assuming not because I pointed out problems of this generation that have not been done/fixed because most of them didn't happen until this generation. They won't be done/fixed until Nintendo delivers Revolution. My concern is that they not replicate those mistakes. Many of them will be fixed, so I am happy about that. But there is still more to do/show. Until they DO indicate that those problems are fixed, you're gonna have to deal with some of us worriers. That's the potential downside to releasing information in a slow drip. There's more to learn before I can completely back it up.

"Don't you think maybe they were holding off on online until they could implement it for free without bleeding out their ass?"

Naturally, but that's not exactly what they said at the time. From teasing us with broadband and modem adapters to commenting that they'd be going online every time they were asked for years... to only not deliver until recently? That's a piss poor way to communicate with customers. If you have no product or service in the pipeline, say so. I'd be fine if they had said from the start, "This just doesn't work for us this generation." I would have accepted that and backed them up. Just don't dangle the carrot and not deliver.

"I love Nintendo's games but nobody seems to be giving them a chance, and I'm not convinced it's because they're screwing up. I think it's because for better or worse the market has been stuck in a rut ever since Sony came along and brought their "overwhelming hype sells anything" approach to games."

Nice point. What Nintendo does, they do well. I think our concern, really, is that we don't want Nintendo bullied into obscurity any more. Sure they'll likely be around a long time, but unless they find solutions to fight back they're lessening their chances each generation. Unfortunately, the Sony and MS behemoths can't be ignored. As I said, they don't have to BE Sony or MS to compete. They just have to be relevant. The DS is a solid system. The Rev is shaping up. Let's just see the rest of the plan.

"I'd like to think that we can all agree that we're all hugely excited for the Rev."

Excited about the potential, absolutely.  

[zakkiel]

Quote
ddly enough, many of the opinions here are repetitions of Nintendo's talking points. What's best for Nintendo is best for them, apparently. How convenient it is, I suppose, to share in collective thought.

Oddly enough, all the "mistakes" I see listed here are really "things I want Nintendo to do because it would best serve me." Witness the ridiculous claim that an online service would have made some difference to the Cube's performance, for example. How convenient narcissism is. It saves you from ever finding out how other people feel about some particular policy, and if they do insist on telling you, you can always copmfort yourself with the thought that their opinions are illegitimate because they are mindless Nintendo drones.

[mjbd]

Quote
Originally posted by: Kairon
It seems to me that most of the problems we agree that Nintendo has...

Are MARKETING or MANAGEMENT problems. None of these problems (need to advertise, poor treatment of EU/AUS, the need to lie to gamers and fans, the need to capture mindshare), none of them, deal with the core values or ideas that Nintendo is driving towards, and given that light, I'd like to think that we can all agree that we're all hugely excited for the Rev.

Yay.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

Agree 100%.  Even this generation, Nintendo's marketing for gamecube has been lackluster from the beginning.  Games like Eternal Darkness should have been give a much bigger marketing campaign.  Even the games they did advertise, they still made stupid mistakes.  One being who ever they put in charge of marketing, cause alot of their commercials suck, and release dates.  Releasing Metroid Echoes a week after Halo 2, not a very good move.  I do like what Nintendo has done for the DS, most the advertising looks pretty slick, and hopefully that keeps up for Rev.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

It's WAR once again.

[BigJim]

"Oddly enough, all the "mistakes" I see listed here are really "things I want Nintendo to do because it would best serve me.""

Last I checked, opinions are selfish by default. Yours included. If you don't read those opinions in context or just didn't read the last page or so, oh well.

" It's WAR once again. "

Meh...