Topic: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN

[Kairon]

Basically, what Nintendo needs is a modern day reincarnation of Miyamoto. LOL.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Bill Aurion]

Like Miyamoto!  Oh wait, what...

[mjbd]

Hopefully we get an update from IGN tonight.  They need to talk to developers, and get more input on what to expect in terms of visuals.  If the specs really are that low, they seriously could do the $99, but probably $150 if they are gonna include the shell and nun-chuck.  I want to hear developers say, "yea, REV is way less powerfull than X-box360 and PS3, but will still be noticeably better than what we have seen on current hardware."  I think we need more feedback on overall performance, than what the specs are.  Nintendo must see the new controller as its trump card, and maybe there is good reason for that.

[BigJim]

gamesindustry.biz seems to be more or less confirming the IGN information... "about 2.5x the performance."

I still think it's FINE for standard definition games.  2.5x the GameCube means about 2x the Xbox (subjectively speaking). I don't think anybody should get their panties in a bunch over that... unless they're still pissed off about the no-HD thing, which is their perogative. I think that sucks too.

[ruby_onix]

I think the "maturity" thing all comes back to third party support. Nintendo seems to think that getting that support means that they need to buy the next Goldeneye, GTA, Halo, or Metroid Prime, and then keep buying them for the rest of time. But what they really need is the little guys. They need the next SNES-era Rare. They need the next N64 Body Harvest-era DMA/Rockstar. They need the next Oni-era Bungie. They need the next N64 Turok-era Iguana/Retro.

The problem is, Nintendo doesn't seem to want the little guys anymore. They pretty much booted them all in favor of building canvases that suit their own personal needs.

Yeah, the Revolutionary Controller is awesome, and if it's cheap enough there may eventually be one in every home in America. But I fear that the clearly "limited" nature of their design (which I'm sure Nintendo's quite satisfied with) is going to simply hand another generation of success to Nintendo's competitors, as soon as they decide to copy the Revolutionary Controller. Unless Nintendo's monopoly powers kick in before then. Those are obviously Nintendo's favorite way to keep the third parties in line.

[Don'tHate742]

"We could do a game for this in a few months," commented another developer. "Developing games is going to be easy, the challenge is going to be using the controller properly."

Why are you guys ignoring this? This is great news!

Bill - the reason why I liked those FMV's is because they are smooth. The textures are high-quality and the animation is great. I'd like to see something like an FMV but real....wouldn't you? Answering yes doesn't make you a graphic-whore......

Also, I don't get this whole debate over the 2-3 times more powerful comment (ghz, megs, and all that other stuff included). To get upset over this, first of all (1), you need to know what 2-3 times more powerful means graphically. Second of all (2), you'd have to actually care about it not being many more times powerful like the 360 for example.

1: If I compared the prettiest N64 game to the sh!ttiest Cube game (disregarding art style, e.g., animal crossing and cubivore), I'd probably say that the cube is about 2-3 times better than the N64. Who says there not doing this now? What I'm getting at is "2-3 times more powerful" is all about perspective.

2: Now, imagine two cameras. One is 3 mpx; the other is 6 mpx. If I were to actually know my sh!t (like a developer would) I would say that technically, the 6 mpx camera is far more advanced than the 3 mpx. To the consumer, however, one is noticeably more clear but it is also more expensive. All, but the most devoted of consumers, decide that they don't need the "future" yet, and pick up the far cheaper 3 mpx camera. Now, imagine if the 6 mpx and the 3 mpx cameras where on the same playing field. If they both shot a 640 X 480 picture, even with the 6 mpx's power, the two pictures are indistinguishable. So if you could only print pictures in 640 X 480, then what's the point of payin $200 or more on a 6 mpx camera?

The only thing that would teeter the decision is if the 6 mpx is from a highly reputable company and its quality will last for years. Also the features would play a role.

Let's talk about the Xbox 360 and REV in terms of features, reputation, and quality.

Nintendo wins point for point on a SD tv....that's all that matters to Nintendo.  

[Bill Aurion]

Bill - the reason why I liked those FMV's is because they are smooth. The textures are high-quality and the animation is great. I'd like to see something like an FMV but real....wouldn't you? Answering yes doesn't make you a graphic-whore......

It has nothing to do with me hating nice graphics, I just don't like the obstruct shiny-ness...Compare a game like Twilight Princess to what we've seen of nextgen thus far (such as Perfect Dark Zero) and there's this nasty film of shiny goo on nextgen games that I reaaaally don't like...If Ninty could create what is seen in the FMV in a less shiny state then I'll be all good...

[BiLdItUp1]

Bill, what do you mean? Wanna show us some screengrabs? Do you think the nextgen is too 'plastic?'

[Don'tHate742]

I, too, hate the shiny-ness and would only like to see it during explosions and the like.

When used in abudance, I think it makes everything look fake.

[ruby_onix]

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Also, I don't get this whole debate over the 2-3 times more powerful comment (ghz, megs, and all that other stuff included). To get upset over this, first of all you need to know what 2-3 times more powerful means graphically.

The GamesIndustry.biz report says "2x the clock speed, 2-3x the performance". I would expect that "polygons per second" is a good indicator of performance.

Sooo... Take pretty much any game from this generation of consoles... if it's running at 30fps, bump it up to 60fps... add a Revolutionary Control method... and... you're done. There's the Revolution.

The next generation, as Nintendo apparently sees it.

Unless/until Nintendo gives us some reason to believe otherwise.

[Don'tHate742]

Well how is bumping up the framerate bumping up the number of polygons per second? Your totally disregarding the GPU. Also, I don't know much but wouldn't turning up the ram stablize the framerate at 60 fps for all games? Thus, the cpu can push even more polygons per frame per second (still disregarding the GPU)?

[Kairon]

The fact is that there simply aren't that many little guys around worth wanting. Kuju? N-Space? Please. And it's also like playing the stock market. Who knows if a certain company will be worth investing in? Or if they'll fail utterly?

For Nintendo, Silicon Knights and Left Field and Factor 5 were pretty much duds. Retro had HUGE problems early on, who would've known that despite laying off all those people and cancelling 4 of their 5 projects that they'd come out more or less ok? And it's debatable, but Rareware has also turned out to be not all they were made up to be. Going back to 1998, it looks like Nintendo got lucky with the Pokemon Franchise creators GameFreaks.

In the meantime, companies like Bungie and DMA became big. Who was DMA before GTA3 you ask? They made Space Station Silicon Valley and Body Harvest. Did any of you guys out there buy those games? They were lukewarm according to reviewers and their sales weren't that great either, but you gotta look at what their style was. If you had been able to look at a Space Station Silicon Valley in 1999 and had the courage to say "These guys are gonna make great games, BUY DMA whatever you do!" then give yourself a pat on the back. You just picked the rare winner out of the entire stockmarket.

The question with the little companies is: who is the next DMA? Not N-Space nor Kuju. I personally can't think of any companies that I feel are on the verge of breaking out. Maybe hunt down the Cubivore people, but they might not be able to deliver a high-content game since Cubivore was very very straightforward contentwise. Konami's already gripped hard onto the music genre, but if you'd foreseen that you'd probably be rich now... Maybe Suda51, but you'd have to hope that they can create a game that doesn't have the trappings of a game and cut down on immersion killing extras and concentrating more on seamless user-game connections.

God, are there any innovative companies today who have games out that could match DMA's Body Harvest? Are there any companies out there capable of coming to the table with new-concept ideas that can, as Miyamoto does, up-end the tea table?

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: ruby_onix

Sooo... Take pretty much any game from this generation of consoles... if it's running at 30fps, bump it up to 60fps... and... you're done.

Hey, you just described the XBox360 on a standard TV! To describe the PS3 you'd need to bump it up to 120FPS, but yeah...

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[ruby_onix]

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Well how is bumping up the framerate bumping up the number of polygons per second?

Framerate consumes polygons-per-second.

Like, you know how the Cube is supposed to do 6-12 million polygons-per-second? Well, if you take 12 million polys-per-second, divide it by 30 frames-per-second, you can guess that things onscreen can be made up of 400,000 polys, before things start to bog down. If you make the game 60 frames-per-second, then you can only use 200,000 polys. Do you see how that works?

If the Rev is 24 million polygons-per-second, then it can do that 400,000 polygon game with the silky smoothness of 60fps. If they're willing to go with 30fps, then they can have 800,000 polygon games, the kind which would barely run on this generation (at a clunky 15fps).

Yes, two times the polygons-per-second is a nice thing, and nobody would turn it down.

But last generation Sony said the PS2 could do 66 million polygons-per-second (which was a lie, of course). This time, (IIRC) they're saying the PS3 can do 1.5 billion. Hideo Kojima is daring people to regognize even a single visible polygon anywhere in his MGS4 trailer. Even if that's jumping from lie-to-lie, that is what you call a "generation leap". Two times is not.

[Ian Sane]

"For Nintendo, Silicon Knights and Left Field and Factor 5 were pretty much duds."

I'll give you Left Field but SK and F5 are both talented developers that could have done way better if Nintendo wasn't such a moron regarding marketing.  Eternal Darkness was given a horrible marketing push and then SK was treated like a glorified port house to work on a remake of MGS.  ED itself was quite good which you can't say for Giest.  They left apparently because they didn't like the direction Nintendo is taking regarding non-gamers.  Factor 5 made THE killer app for the Cube in Rogue Leader but Nintendo focused on Luigi's Mansion instead in their commercials.  Rebel Strike sucked but considering that Factor 5's N64 games were also quite good I consider that a fluke caused by a poor design decision to feature foot missions.  F5 left because of Nintendo skimping on the hardware (I think).  If Nintendo wasn't making an underpowered remote-controlled non-gamer console conceivably BOTH developers would still be with Nintendo.  They had talent.  Nintendo just blatantly misused them.

And regardless of how you feel about Rare now they made the game that let the SNES beat the Genesis and they basically carried the N64 on their back.  Rare is one of the best things Nintendo has ever had.  They probably wouldn't have been able stay in the console market without them.

[Bill Aurion]

Even if that's jumping from lie-to-lie, that is what you call a "generation leap". Two times is not.

Sony also spent a fortune designing their chip, will be selling at a price that might cause you to mortgage your house, and is banking on people playing more of the same with new coat of paint...That's not a generation leap to me...It's more like another step up a decrepit ladder...

There are also games that just wouldn't benefit that much from a framerate jump from 30 to 60...Wind Waker runs at a nice and steady 30 (people say there are times where framerate drops, but I've honestly never seen it), and I never would have guessed such if I had been asked the first time I played the game...Now stop doublestandarding Ninty on these things when you'll be seeing the same problems on the other side...You think we'll be seeing pretty 60 fps games on the other consoles soon?  Ha, I think not...  

[Mario]

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The question with the little companies is: who is the next DMA? Not N-Space nor Kuju.

Why not?

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Even if that's jumping from lie-to-lie, that is what you call a "generation leap". Two times is not.

Eh, my eyes will decide that. Doesn't look very substantial to me.

[foolish03]

 im not entirely sold on these "inside" sources".  Anyways my brother came up with a good article that sufficiently debunks igns cover story.  Take a look, its an interesting read.

IGN may be wrong

[BigJim]

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and is banking on people playing more of the same with new coat of paint..

Sounds like the N64-to-Cube transition to me.

[Kairon]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"For Nintendo, Silicon Knights and Left Field and Factor 5 were pretty much duds."

I'll give you Left Field but SK and F5 are both talented developers that could have done way better if Nintendo wasn't such a moron regarding marketing.  Eternal Darkness was given a horrible marketing push and then SK was treated like a glorified port house to work on a remake of MGS.  ED itself was quite good which you can't say for Giest.  They left apparently because they didn't like the direction Nintendo is taking regarding non-gamers.  Factor 5 made THE killer app for the Cube in Rogue Leader but Nintendo focused on Luigi's Mansion instead in their commercials.  Rebel Strike sucked but considering that Factor 5's N64 games were also quite good I consider that a fluke caused by a poor design decision to feature foot missions.  F5 left because of Nintendo skimping on the hardware (I think).  If Nintendo wasn't making an underpowered remote-controlled non-gamer console conceivably BOTH developers would still be with Nintendo.  They had talent.  Nintendo just blatantly misused them.

And regardless of how you feel about Rare now they made the game that let the SNES beat the Genesis and they basically carried the N64 on their back.  Rare is one of the best things Nintendo has ever had.  They probably wouldn't have been able stay in the console market without them.

Look at Factor 5's history with Nintendo and you will realize that they're a one-trick pony. You're gonna tell me that Indiana Jones on the N64 and the Rogue Squadron copycat Battle for Naboo insinuate that Factor 5 shows a strong developmental history? The only time that Factor 5 has struck success has been with the Rogue Leader formula, and that formula was not only stale with RS3, but they failed utterly at delivering any other gameplay to shore it up. Factor 5's only redeeming trait was that, hey, look, they gave Bespin some really nice textures. Factor 5 made nice space fighter action engines, but precious nothing else. That's why they left Nintendo, because Nintendo saw no reason in keeping them after it became apparent that the allure of Rogue Squadron had been squandered.

And have you PLAYED Silicon Knight's Eternal Darkness? They credit Miyamoto for teaching them alot about game control, but that game's control was still off-kilter. The game was basically a standard 3rd person action game with exceptional atmosphere and concept, but no real gameplay meat. Reading the game's reviews finds reviewers struggling to justify why the game is anything more than a set of pretty cinemas strung together by the sparkling innovationy (yes, I think all us Nintendo fans can let the cat out of the bag now) sanity system and run-of-the mill third person gameplay. Apparently, gamers saw through that because they weren't convinced to pick up the title in even respectable numbers. I bought the game, I played all three threads, I ENJOYED it even! But the fact is, the game did not deserve all the hype that fans gave it, nor did it deliver on the promises of SK.

Furthermore, looking at the many Too Human concepts through time we can find certainly a lot of fanciful cyberpunk wishful thinking, a lot of talk about solving things either via stealth or action, but nothing truly innovative or nothing that hadn't been done before. The X360 incarnation is finally looking to bring the game down to a plain simple action game with a sci-fi setting, something appealing yes but also something that it isn't worth losing sleep over any time soon. The reason why SK left Nintendo is because yes, they disagreed with Nintendo. Silicon Knights thought that Too Human was the next big thing, and Nintendo disagreed.

No, I must stand by my evaluations of these companies. The strikes against them are inherent in actual game design, not mere technical acuity or stylistic quirks... but actual matter-of-fact game design, or lack of.

And we can certainly thank Rare for Donkey Kong Country and Goldeneye, but approximately a decade has passed between now and then and if you think that this is still the same company, well... no, lol. It most definitely isn't.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[Bill Aurion]

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Originally posted by: BigJim

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and is banking on people playing more of the same with new coat of paint..

Sounds like the N64-to-Cube transition to me.

Pretty much...Get to know me well enough and you'll see that I've been tiring of console gaming for quite a while now...There are few titles that have kept me playing console games, and this has mainly been for Wind Waker and Jungle Beat...As I've said before, if Nintendo's next system was merely a more powerful Gamecube I would most likely not even bothered getting it until the next Zelda came out, and I would only pop back in for more unique titles (such as Jungle Beat and Animal Crossing, etc...)

The first turning point was with the DS...The DS has already given birth to some absolutely unique and fun titles like Yoshi Touch & Go, Kirby Canvas Curse, Nintendogs, and Ouendan (which I hope to get within the month!) and this is the path I want to see games go...It's the same reason I cannot wait for the Revolution...It's not because I'm a Nintendo fanboy that I can't wait...I'm not a sheep, and I don't appreciate it when people don't even bother trying to discuss an issue with me and instead say, "Oh, but you're a Nintendo fanboy, so that's why you think it's okay for Nintendo to do this..."  I've been waiting YEARS for someone to do something about how incredibly dull games have gotten, and I'm happy that Nintendo is the one to hopefully spark a charge in the industry and garner my re-interest in console gaming...

[ruby_onix]

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Sony also spent a fortune designing their chip, will be selling at a price that might cause you to mortgage your house, and is banking on people playing more of the same with new coat of paint...

Which is pretty much the exact same thing Sony did with the PS2.

With the N64, Nintendo delivered a $200 supercomputer with a revolutionary new control method, leaving everyone scratching their heads wondering how it was possible. (And then they tripped up big time.)

With the GameCube, Nintendo delivered a $200 supercomputer which tried to fix a blunder that should never have happened, but didn't do much else. Nobody was left scratching their heads about the "$200 supercomputer" part, because Nintendo had them all convinced it was an overpriced $100 Fisher Price toy, and because MS had a more reasonable looking $300 supercomputer on the market.

With the Revolution, Nintendo will apparently deliver a $100 Fisher Price toy with a Revolutionary new control method.


I don't believe that Nintendo can't compete on a level playing field with Sony. Actually, I think if Nintendo really tried, Sony honestly wouldn't stand a chance. Seriously. I would like the Rev to be a $200 supercomputer with a revolutionary new control method, that leaves people scratching their heads wondering how a thing of such greatness is even possible. And without the collosal blunder this time, since I know the two don't automatically go hand-in-hand.

But... I guess I'll just have to wait and see what we're offered.

[Mario]

What does fisher price mean?

[Bill Aurion]

Fisher Price toy?  I'm wondering if you've even seen the Rev system at all...Or maybe you are trying to be witty and are absolutely FAILING...

I'm just sitting here shaking my head, wondering just where the hell you've been for the past year, with Ninty trying to expand the industry...Do you REALLY think Sony and MS are going to be expanding the industry?  Is there really someone out there that stupid to go, "Oh hey, I used to hate gaming, but now it's even prettier and in HD!  I'm going to spend a lot of money on it!"  GIVE ME A BREAK!  For once, people, use some common sense and actually listen to what Ninty has been saying!  They aren't trying to win back Sony and MS fans, who are pretty much implanted in their systems...They wish to bring new gamers to the table, those that HAVE NEVER CARED FOR GAMING BEFORE, they wish to satisfy the hardcore tastes of their fans (those who aren't little pissy ****s that whine constantly about visuals), and as a side quest they hope to be a second choice of the Sony and MS fans who didn't give the Gamecube a second thought (and thus will look at the Rev in terms of a new form of gameplay)...

[KnowsNothing]