Author Topic: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN  (Read 100654 times)

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Offline mantidor

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #100 on: December 06, 2005, 03:03:03 PM »
I dont see Nintendo pricing the console at less than $200. At the same price that the DS? it doesnt make sense at all.
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Offline Kairon

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #101 on: December 06, 2005, 03:09:48 PM »
Well, to give Matt on IGn his proper due, he actually sounds pretty optomistic about the Rev because whenever asked personally about his opinions on the graphical prowess, he immediately turns to how much more he is excited for the controller. We'll see if he can keep that up though, lol.

And I can't see how with HD not packed in with the cheaper version of X360, developers could consider relying on it. What's the HD status on the PS3 by the way? Regardless, does anyone know about the speeds of access regarding Flash Memory versus Hard Disks?

Finally, IGN's sources seem to think a $149 launch price, or lower. That'd make the Rev out of the gates in impulse buy territory... awesome. My impulses are snapping already.

Oh, and with regard to 3rd parties having difficulties with ports...hmmm... it depends on whether they can "scale down" their polys and textures without too much difficulty. But then again, you have to ask, if a $149 mass market console gets significant userbase, why not go downscale your graphics? After all, third parties follow the almighty $ and Nintendo is leveraging two things to build a profitable casual-and-non-gamer userbase: innovative gameplay AND dirt cheap prices. Plus the fact that it will be very competitive on standard TVs doesn't hurt that equation one bit.

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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #102 on: December 06, 2005, 03:12:19 PM »
Umm DS was $150 then $130, err something.

I've been convinced that many third parties are inferior to others.  I'm not worried.

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Offline odifiend

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #103 on: December 06, 2005, 03:27:41 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: mantidor
I dont see Nintendo pricing the console at less than $200. At the same price that the DS? it doesnt make sense at all.


Why not?  The GBA at a 100 dollars has sold millions of units.  When you get in that price range shopaholics like myself will just buy crap...

Quote

Originally posted by: Kairon

Finally, IGN's sources seem to think a $149 launch price, or lower. That'd make the Rev out of the gates in impulse buy territory... awesome. My impulses are snapping already.

Ditto, my man...  My spending hand is twitching.
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Offline mjbd

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #104 on: December 06, 2005, 03:34:52 PM »
Exactly, people who dont play games might try it out at the store.  When they like it, and find out the price is right, the sale will come easy.  As for ports, I am not very optimitic about them.  I personally feel that many games will never even be ported to Rev.  Like Matt from IGN said, this could lead to exclusive games instead.  
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Offline odifiend

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #105 on: December 06, 2005, 03:41:59 PM »
The thing about ports is the n64 and gamecube stopped getting them, so 'no ports' really isn't a brand new phenomenon.  N-Fans are elitist and generally won't buy ports so what is the point.  Companies like EA will forever port their stuff over though, and since they are like Nintendo's main 3rd party supplier, support will be about the same.
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Offline mantidor

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #106 on: December 06, 2005, 03:43:28 PM »
To cost $100 it should be just a GC, and well, its not, if you take for granted that " you just take GC CPU  and GPU clock rate and double it" (which again doesnt make sense at all), Im happy with two - three times more powerful than GC, thats basically how 360 games look right now anyway.
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Offline odifiend

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #107 on: December 06, 2005, 03:46:45 PM »
Technically the GCN is 50 dollars right now since it is packaged in with Mario Party 73 or Poke-crap XD.  Also I guess you could assume that materials get cheaper or Nintendo is willing to take a loss to increase penetration.  
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Offline ruby_onix

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #108 on: December 06, 2005, 03:48:40 PM »
If the Rev is $99-149, then that's a megaton.

But I wish they would've made it $99.99-149.99, because then they could've doubled the RAM in the unit.

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Offline BigJim

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #109 on: December 06, 2005, 03:50:41 PM »
It's coming out in a year, so whatever GCN costs now is mostly irrelevant.

Still, I doubt we'll see it for $99 out of the gate anyway.

Quote

does anyone know about the speeds of access regarding Flash Memory versus Hard Disks?


Hard drives are an order of magnitude faster. It might be ok for data that doesn't need immediate or frequent access, but the system might just as well pull it off the disc rather than hold it in flash. Also unless I'm not up to speed on the bleeding edge of flash memory, flash doesn't have "infinite" read/write abilities like a hard disk does. So it seems less than ideal to use it for that purpose.

What if it's used up for game saves and virtual console stuff? I don't think it can't be counted on very highly.
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Offline IceCold

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #110 on: December 06, 2005, 04:06:36 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: odifiend
The thing about ports is the n64 and gamecube stopped getting them, so 'no ports' really isn't a brand new phenomenon.  N-Fans are elitist and generally won't buy ports so what is the point.  Companies like EA will forever port their stuff over though, and since they are like Nintendo's main 3rd party supplier, support will be about the same.
No. I don't agree at all. The single most important reason that Nintendo lost the 64 and Cube era was 3rd party support. Nintendo should be trying as hard as they possibly can (and they really have been lately) to get support on their system - exclusive or multiplatform. The last thing I want is to keep seeing games exclusive for only PS3 and Xbox 360.

If you want Nintendo's strategy to JUST be the non-gamers, then that's the way to go - just having first party games and EA support, without other multiplatform ports. But Nintendo wants to keep existing gamers - your way would just be effectively abandoning them altogether.
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Offline Pittbboi

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #111 on: December 06, 2005, 04:26:19 PM »
No matter what side of the fence you’re standing on—I think it’s safe to say one thing: No matter what, Nintendo is making a huge gamble.

Like it or not, the majority of the world are graphics whores (I just don’t like that term, “graphics whore”. It devalues the fact that, like it or not, graphics have contributed to great games. People have a right to care about them). There’s just no getting around that. The group of people who aren’t graphics whores isn’t enough to sustain a system. Just look at Sony. PS2 was the weakest console of the bunch, but Sony knew just what to say to make people believe otherwise, and that, combined with the fact that it was the previous generation’s undisputed market leader, led to it dominating this generation’s “console wars”. (LOL—console war? In retrospect, there never was a war. There wasn’t a single point this generation where Sony was in any sort of threat of losing its number 1 spot.)

IGN, while viewed as shoddy by a lot of people, is unfortunately seen as a legitimate source of gaming news and discussion by legions more—including developers. So I believe that Matt’s capable of having such contacts, and I believe that, while not 100% accurate in the slightest, this news is more or less along the lines of the truth about the Revolution. Everything points to that being the case. In terms of power, Rev is definitely coming in at a pathetic third place. Hell, if it’s nothing more than a souped up Xbox, one must wonder if it’s worthy of even being considered a next generation console. I have to agree with a lot of what Ian said: Nintendo is repeating a lot of the same mistakes that doomed the Cube, and I just don’t think there’s any point in arguing that; sheer logic and numbers are against you.

However, with that being said, I also agree with Kairon. This generation, more than any other, consumer opinion is going to decide the fate of the Rev. If Nintendo can achieve its goal of positioning the Rev as an “And” console; if Nintendo can make the Rev into a cheap and intriguing piece of technology that people won’t simply glance over; if Nintendo can successfully make the Rev both the cute accessory that everyone simply must have and, at the same time, a legitimate gaming console then it won’t matter how underpowered the system is, everyone will simply HAVE to own one and developers would be stupid not to develop for it. If Nintendo can achieve this, then the fact that they’re repeating their mistakes will be more then forgivable. Loss for the greater gain and all that jazz.

Still, what I fear is that Nintendo hasn’t quite realized that, for the past two generations, it’s done nothing but rub its good name in the dirt. Like it or not, in that time the Nintendo brand name has gone from being synonymous with all of gaming, to being a guilty pleasure (At my college it’s almost a joke to say you own a Gamecube, even if the same people who laugh at you admit that it does have a handful of good games in it’s library). Nintendo still has its fair share of, hardcore, diehard fans (Bill). But there’s no denying that a significant portion of \ Sony and MS’s fanbase consist of former Nintendo fans who just couldn’t take the abuse Nintendo called “good ideas” and “profit protecting” and fled—understandably so. Furthermore, an even bigger portion of Sony and MS’s fanbases consist of people those former Nintendo-lovers influenced.

So the big mystery is this: even if Nintendo is successful in creating the console it wants—a graphically sub par but cheap and innovative console that just begs for people to give it a chance—will people (especially those that have been dooped by Nintendo in the past) give them that chance? Will it be enough for them to sell enough consoles to convince developers that putting in the extra time and money to make exclusives and decent ports is worth it? I guess only time will tell on that one. Money runs this industry, and no matter how innovative and cool some developers think the controller is, the big wigs above won’t give them the green light to do anything if they don’t believe a decent return will be had.

Offline odifiend

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #112 on: December 06, 2005, 04:40:17 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: IceCold
Quote

Originally posted by: odifiend
The thing about ports is the n64 and gamecube stopped getting them, so 'no ports' really isn't a brand new phenomenon.  N-Fans are elitist and generally won't buy ports so what is the point.  Companies like EA will forever port their stuff over though, and since they are like Nintendo's main 3rd party supplier, support will be about the same.
No. I don't agree at all. The single most important reason that Nintendo lost the 64 and Cube era was 3rd party support. Nintendo should be trying as hard as they possibly can (and they really have been lately) to get support on their system - exclusive or multiplatform. The last thing I want is to keep seeing games exclusive for only PS3 and Xbox 360.

If you want Nintendo's strategy to JUST be the non-gamers, then that's the way to go - just having first party games and EA support, without other multiplatform ports. But Nintendo wants to keep existing gamers - your way would just be effectively abandoning them altogether.


My way?  Please, I was talking about ports only.  Ports are likely a very expensive proposition right now.  And on a Nintendo console, they likely won't sell especially if Nintendo is planning to be a second console.  Nintendo, while they have been trying to get support lately, has forced a decision on developers to pretty much develop exclusives which is good because that is what they're hardcore fanbase buys and it will also ensure that their console is offering something fresh.
Besides Cold, if any target market takes off whether that is non-gamers or gamers, developers will flock ensuring future support.
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Offline mantidor

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #113 on: December 06, 2005, 04:40:47 PM »
"I have to agree with a lot of what Ian said: Nintendo is repeating a lot of the same mistakes that doomed the Cube, and I just don’t think there’s any point in arguing that; sheer logic and numbers are against you."

what logic are you talking about? certainly the big "mistakes" for you or Ian are the controller and the graphical power, which obviously werent big problems for the GC.  Arguments to justify GCs failure are, form factor (stupid and solved),  lack of online (solved),  not enough size for the media (solved again if this rumor is true), so how are the same mistakes? seriously?  
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Offline zakkiel

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #114 on: December 06, 2005, 04:41:36 PM »
Quote

I'm starting to think that the Revolution will not have graphics.
Pictures get in the way of enjoying the controller. Only with text-based games can you truly focus on the wonder that is the Revmote!

Quote

So we're supposed to believe that the Rev has less than 128 MB of RAM? Horseshit.
I have to concur. Seriously, I believed the basic thrust of the article before, but now I just reject it until I hear otherwise from Nintendo. 128 megs of notebook RAM costs $20, bought individually. wholesale it's gotta be a lot less. It just makes no sense at all for Nintendo not to stick it in.
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Offline odifiend

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #115 on: December 06, 2005, 04:46:29 PM »
That would bring the price to 120 - 170.  Not as sweet.
EDIT:  Seriously though if the GCN had 40 MB of ram,  what is the problem if the Rev falls at 104 vs. 128?  
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Offline mjbd

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #116 on: December 06, 2005, 05:16:04 PM »
104mb of ram is a significant increase from the 42mb of ram in the gamecube.  About 2.5 times more memory isnt bad.  The main reason 360 uses so much is because of the high-res textures.  I suppose this is an endless debate between those who think this is a disaster, and those who think is irrelevant.  I personally feel that Nintendo has the best chance of success by focusing on their strengths.  One year from now, Nintendo launches Rev at either $99 or $150, with some killer new games, and some of which can be played online (Super Smash Brothers).  To me, this absolutely spells "wide audience appeal."
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Offline ruby_onix

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #117 on: December 06, 2005, 05:18:00 PM »
BTW, here's a roundup of what was said, for those who don't want to click on IGN.

64MB + 24MB (88MB total) of 1T-SRAM
16MB D-RAM

Total of 104MB of RAM.

IBM-made Broadway CPU is "Gecko 2.0", with twice the clock speed of the GCN's Gecko, if that much.

ATi-made Hollywood GPU hasn't been seen yet, but on paper it's supposedly a "Flipper 2.0". Has 3MB of embedded RAM. Most likely has some built-in special effects that are more up-to-date than the ones in Flipper.

Storage medium is an ordinary single-or-double layered DVD.

"Every developer was in agreement that Revolution should launch with a price tag of $149 or lower. Some speculated that based on the tech, a $99 price point would not be out of the question."


Edit: Some GameCube specs, FYI.

24MB 1T-SRAM
16MB D-RAM
Total of 40MB RAM.

Gecko CPU = 485 MHz

Flipper GPU = 162MHz, 3MB of embedded RAM, and lots of built-in special effects.
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Offline Nile Boogie

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #118 on: December 06, 2005, 06:04:47 PM »
http://xfersf06.ign.com/^1606475555/movies/cubemovies.ign.com/docroot/media/previews/video/metroid4/metroid4fmv.mpg?position=front

"Considering everything we know, the above link represents the what the graphical abilities are of Nintendo's Next-Generation console, Codenamed: Revolution."

Although I just found the old SpaceWorld2000 video of Metriod Prime, more ram and better(bump) texture processing should lead you to games that look just a tad bit better this. If this is the case, then I will be more than happy.

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Offline zakkiel

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #119 on: December 06, 2005, 06:10:12 PM »
Quote

104mb of ram is a significant increase from the 42mb of ram in the gamecube. About 2.5 times more memory isnt bad. The main reason 360 uses so much is because of the high-res textures.
Oh, come on. You can't tell me that the difference between high- and low-def requires five times the RAM for textures.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #120 on: December 06, 2005, 06:17:19 PM »
Well, I'm not sure about this, you'd need to ask an X360 expert but I remember reading that the X360 was originally slated to have only 256 mb of RAM and was fine at that level, and that it was upped to 512 very late in its research cycle for no other reason than that Microsoft could use it as a more impressive selling point.

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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #121 on: December 06, 2005, 06:20:34 PM »
Well, 720p (1280x720) is 3X the pixel-area of 480p (640x480), so it's arguable to ask for bigger (~3X) textures to take advantage of the increased real-estate.
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: 2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #122 on: December 06, 2005, 06:26:17 PM »
the problem is alot of us want a next gen system..if it doenst look enough better...then they should have just sold a new controller for gamecube. Just because they seriously undercut power for a sweet price point doesnt mean everybody will buy into it. I want more ram on my system. Not because I want better graphics, but because I want better gameplay. Nintendo has totally gone hill in their game quality this generation....its not up to snuff like it used to be. It used to be he best...now its sort of average in my eyes. A better controller isn't going to make games that much better. Its the content. Content is the most important part of video games, content is what provides us our entertainment. Content takes up memory. For the last three generations Nintendo has constantly made mistakes, everytime it mends a mistake it makes a new one. It just seems to be ignoring its problems. Gamecube should have had disks as big as the competition. It should have had more then one online game.

i can see where they are going...they really want to be everybody's second console...which would make them actually the number 1 console...by having a great pricepoint and something new....but that can't last forever. If they want to decimate the competition they better bring it whenever the competition fights back. They will. I say 2 years from now Sony will make hteir own gyro controller...that works a different way...but still works...and likewise for microsoft.
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Offline Kairon

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #123 on: December 06, 2005, 09:03:17 PM »
I don't think Nintendo can AFFORD to bring it wherever their opposition does. Unlike Microsoft, Nintendo can't afford to lose 4 billion dollars each generation. And unlike Sony, Nintendo can't develop a supercomputer chip in-house, nor even contemplate funding such development to begin with. Nintendo will never win in a brute force fight against Sony or MS.

All this whole "next generation" worry is upsetting me because it's ridiculous. The X360 is practically indistinguishable from current gen on a standard TV, what's so next-gen about that? The Rev is already expected to be more powerful than the RE4-and-Twilight Princess GC, and without diverting this power to HD I anticipate that in everything gameplay wise, the Rev will be able to do what the competition does on a standard TV. Well, that is unless Sony comes up with a way to use all 7 of the PS3 cores for a Skynet AI routine to take over the world AND run at 120 FPS while doing so.

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Offline Kairon

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RE:2-3 Times as powerful as GC true, sez IGN
« Reply #124 on: December 06, 2005, 09:07:15 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: ThePermNot because I want better graphics, but because I want better gameplay. Nintendo has totally gone hill in their game quality this generation....its not up to snuff like it used to be. It used to be he best...now its sort of average in my eyes. A better controller isn't going to make games that much better. Its the content.


You're wrong. The controller is the very answer to how Nintendo was underwhelming with Sunshine, with Double Dash and with Wind Waker. Nintendo foundered this generation because they suddenly hit a brick wall in terms of user interface and what they could do with it. Wind Waker didn't offer much new over OoT, Sunshine was forced to introduce the hovering water pack to feel any different at all. The formulas are so set and perfected with a typical controller that there just isn't anywhere else to innovate aside from sticcking two people on one Mario Kart, so that's why this gens games feel lackluster to you, and that's why Nintendo made the new controller. You're actually looking at it backwards ThePerm.

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A glooming peace this morning with it brings;
The sun, for sorrow, will not show his head:
Go hence, to have more talk of these sad things;
Some shall be pardon'd, and some punished:
For never was a story of more woe
Than this of Sega and her Mashiro.