Topic: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"

[wandering]

Zelda has this incredible ability to get people high without drugs.

...though, in this case, the picture just changed because the old one broke forum tables.  

[zakkiel]

Wow, this is kind of ridiculous.

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totally rotten ogre-like lip!!!

Riiiight. Saying WW is gorgeous isn't trolling, but expressing the opposite opinion is. You have any basis for the distinction that doesn't rest on your own opinion?

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Try drawing or painting something for a change. It'll help you appreciate art alot more.

I had to do an oil replica of a Monet to graduate from eighth grade. Not sure it helped me appreciate paintings in general, but I do like some, among them Van Gogh. I guess I've never been sophisticated enough to appreciate Picasso, or cel-shading.  Oh, and I don't believe in art, in the way I think y'all use the term. It's an invention of elites as both an access ritual and a mean of delegitimizing those forms of entertainment the elites disapprove of, which amusingly changes with the generations. Art pretends to objectivity in the most subjective possible arena of human life. When I use the word artist I'm just referring to the people responsible for the visual look of the game.

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Or maybe he just doesn't like cartoons.

Oddly enough I'm a big fan of some anime visuals. If I am a tremendous clownboat. looked more like Last Exile, say, I would have loved it. And no, I'm not just talking about the CG elements.

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How can you gaze at the night sky and not be impressed? What about the Ghost ship? What about the castle? Even the prelliminary cut-scene was impressive.

I liked said cut scene, but it didn't exactly wow me. Ghost ship, castle, and night sky all left me cold. Not admittedly as cold as the frequently MS-paintesque water or the exaggeration of Link's affect to a point well beyond comedy, but still, cold. In many games I will stop to be impressed by the visuals often. In WW, not once. I'm not proud of that, just thought I should point out that there is an alternative opinion, and based entirely on anecdotal evidence it is the more common opinion outside the clique of devoted Nintendo fans.

[Stimutacs Addict]

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Originally posted by: IceCold
Hey the picture changed! I'm hallucinating!!

me too! Now I know why mario was never so mad that the princess was in another castle

[Kairon]

My personal opinion is that WindWaker was a disappointment. It was unfinished, the dungeons lacked character, the game itself lacked content, and it's clear that Nintendo was already floundering, as if they'd reached their creative limits. Nintendo DEFINED the 3D action-adventure genre. And with WW, they realized that they were stuck in it. This, coupled with the not-so-shining-armor Mario Sunshine and Mario Kart:DD suggests to me that Nintendo really was starting to feel creatively stuck with the Gamecube, and suggests to me that this was one reason why the Rev is so revolutionary: Nintendo wanted to shake things up not just for the industry, but for themselves creatively as well.

To me though, Wind Waker had one redeeming feature that I don't believe can be impinged upon. And that is its perfection of a battle system so fluid it's cinematic. That game only approached magic when you were deep in battle. None of the enemies were actually a challenge, but it is a testament to WW's battle system that they were still fun to fight all the same. WW allowed you to fluidly and seamlessly dance around your enemies, all choreographed and animated so brilliantly that my dad would just stop in the room to watch the battle play out. Dodging in WW was no longer simply moving out of the way, but dynamically emphasized by the camera to emerge from its role as gameplay mechanic and come into its own as cinematic battle element. And of course, the counterattack illustrated better than any and all traditional fighting games how the flow of battle could change when someone overextends themselves.

There was only one thing for me to take away from WW, one thing that rose above the realization that Nintendo was running out of traditional controller paradigms to use with its games, and that was for the first time, I felt like what I was playing wasn't just fun, it was starting to tread towards some standard of beauty that I never believed could be unscripted, that I never believed was created seamlessly at the very moment I hit the A button.

Call it what you will...or..well...I guess you could very easily disagree with me if that's your wish. But I think that that was the only purely magical thing out of WW.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com  

[nemo_83]

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Originally posted by: zakkiel
Wow, this is kind of ridiculous.

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totally rotten ogre-like lip!!!

Riiiight. Saying WW is gorgeous isn't trolling, but expressing the opposite opinion is. You have any basis for the distinction that doesn't rest on your own opinion?

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Try drawing or painting something for a change. It'll help you appreciate art alot more.

I had to do an oil replica of a Monet to graduate from eighth grade. Not sure it helped me appreciate paintings in general, but I do like some, among them Van Gogh. I guess I've never been sophisticated enough to appreciate Picasso, or cel-shading.  Oh, and I don't believe in art, in the way I think y'all use the term. It's an invention of elites as both an access ritual and a mean of delegitimizing those forms of entertainment the elites disapprove of, which amusingly changes with the generations. Art pretends to objectivity in the most subjective possible arena of human life. When I use the word artist I'm just referring to the people responsible for the visual look of the game.

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Or maybe he just doesn't like cartoons.

Oddly enough I'm a big fan of some anime visuals. If I am a tremendous clownboat. looked more like Last Exile, say, I would have loved it. And no, I'm not just talking about the CG elements.

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How can you gaze at the night sky and not be impressed? What about the Ghost ship? What about the castle? Even the prelliminary cut-scene was impressive.

I liked said cut scene, but it didn't exactly wow me. Ghost ship, castle, and night sky all left me cold. Not admittedly as cold as the frequently MS-paintesque water or the exaggeration of Link's affect to a point well beyond comedy, but still, cold. In many games I will stop to be impressed by the visuals often. In WW, not once. I'm not proud of that, just thought I should point out that there is an alternative opinion, and based entirely on anecdotal evidence it is the more common opinion outside the clique of devoted Nintendo fans.

Monet influenced a century of artists, animators, and now video game designers.  Painters like Monet who did studies of light and color are where we get cartoons, water color aesthetics, and the toon shading technology in games now.  Without Monet WW would not exist; just look at any horizon line, look at the silhouetes of the islands.

The lighting in WW is what cel shading is all about, next gen games are just now exploring facial animations, the smoke effects were both stylish and fluid, and no game has yet to match its clean polygon models except maybe Kameo which isn't even in the same park in gameplay and is running mostly on next gen effects more than creative coding.

WW is like LttP, its visually graphic and visually timeless.  WW is the most complete 3D world yet.  I hope next generation they chose cel shading again but use character art closer to FFCC than Disney's Hercules.  

I like to zoom out in WW and look at things from a distance like in LttP; it almost looks 2D and that is the goal, to take the space out.

[Kairon]

Wow...well, you've gotten me to see that art in WW's graphics. I just really suck at Art Appreciation I guess.../cry

I'm more of a Miyamoto fan, so I'm a gameplay appreciation buff if anything. That's why I concentrated on the battle system.

~Carmine M. Red
Kairon@aol.com

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I'm a Tartakovsky fan.  I dig Wind Waker.

[MrMojoRising]

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Originally posted by: zakkiel
Oh, and I don't believe in art, in the way I think y'all use the term. It's an invention of elites as both an access ritual and a mean of delegitimizing those forms of entertainment the elites disapprove of, which amusingly changes with the generations. Art pretends to objectivity in the most subjective possible arena of human life. When I use the word artist I'm just referring to the people responsible for the visual look of the game

Oh, I get it, you're from a red-state.

Want to hear an opinion that is even less popular than one that bashes WW?  I thought that OoT was too long and that WW was overall a better more enjoyable experience. (OoT still rocks, you don't have to castrate me)

[mantidor]

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Originally posted by: zakkielOddly enough I'm a big fan of some anime visuals. If I am a tremendous clownboat. looked more like Last Exile, say, I would have loved it. And no, I'm not just talking about the CG elements.

It happens that I also didnt like the particular art style of the Wind Waker, specially Links model, but that didnt stopped me for apreciating what they were trying to acomplish.

Replaying the game is making me to apreciate even more its visual presentation. The fire temple pales in comparison with Dragon Roost Cavern and its amazing lava currents and smoke effects, including distortion of the image because  of intense heat, so I have to strongly disagree with Kairon about the dungeons lacking caracter.

So, of course, although I cant wait for Twilight Princess, I cannot wait for Nintendo's next toon-shaded Zelda.

[Don'tHate742]

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So, of course, although I cant wait for Twilight Princess, I cannot wait for Nintendo's next toon-shaded Zelda.

Quoted for truth.

[couchmonkey]

The thing with art style is that people know what they like.  I know people who don't care for the style in the Wind Waker at all, and although it makes me sad, I can't fault them for it.  If you can't stand a huge-headed, cat-eyed boy running around talking to other freakishly disfigured cartoon characters, that doesn't make you stupid or unartistic, it just means you don't agree with the game's sense of style.  I think most luxury cars look boring, and come in even more boring colours.  That doesn't mean I have no taste in cars, it means I have different taste.  Even "bad" taste is subjective.  In the grand scheme of things, is a person bad because they like how polka-dotted bowties look?

[Don'tHate742]

I was never bashing zakkeil for not liking the art style. Instead, I was bashing him for not being impressed with it, even though other games impress him. I didn't like the charachter models for WW, but I could still appreciate the whole concept behind the art. I could still look at the sky and be impressed with how well they used the art style to display the scenery. Even if I didn't like the art style, I could still see the did a fantastic job representing the world around Link.

It's was never you hate it so you hate art.  

[zakkiel]

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Oh, I get it, you're from a red-state.

Want to hear an opinion that is even less popular than one that bashes WW? I thought that OoT was too long and that WW was overall a better more enjoyable experience. (OoT still rocks, you don't have to castrate me)

I'm a raging New England liberal. And I don't have a problem with people who don't like OoT, just with people saying it's overrated. It's not possible for a game to be overrated unless you believe that people can be deceived about how much fun they're having.

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It happens that I also didnt like the particular art style of the Wind Waker, specially Links model, but that didnt stopped me for apreciating what they were trying to acomplish.

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I was never bashing zakkeil for not liking the art style. Instead, I was bashing him for not being impressed with it, even though other games impress him. I didn't like the charachter models for WW, but I could still appreciate the whole concept behind the art. I could still look at the sky and be impressed with how well they used the art style to display the scenery. Even if I didn't like the art style, I could still see the did a fantastic job representing the world around Link.

I don't understand how you can be impressed with art and not like it. I guess you could be impressed with the technical elements - the pyramids are impressive for the effort that went into building them, not for their aesthetics - but that's not really appreciation of art as art. Sure, I can say, "Wow, it must have taken a lot of work to make that texture," but so does running on a treadmill. Doesn't much incline me to appreciate movies of people running on treadmills.  

[Don'tHate742]

You can be impressed with what the art accomplishes and not by the art style itself. Just like classical music and movies. You can like how it changes the mood, creating sad moments and anxious moments, but not like the classical genre by itself.

[Pale]

I just wanted to say that I think it is entertaining that Zakkiel doesn't believe in art because of some baseless definition he places on it.  You should reword that argument saying you don't like the people who define art in those ways.  Wait, that would that mean you don't like yourself?  :Segmentation Fault:

Aren't you the person who jumped down my throat for not liking the idea that Smash Bros. Rev would change?  I can't believe I would have an opinion that someone else disagrees with... its almost like I was arguing about whether or not Wind Waker was a good game.  

[ShawnSt3r]

   'Raging Liberals' are the real life equivalent of Superman 64.  I wouldn't go around boasting about it.  Sadly, im not from a red state. I wish I was, but im not that fortunate.

   On the topic, OoT was a great game, Wind Waker was not as great.  Not because of its graphics but because it didnt do a well enough job making the works seem vast AND alive.  It was hugh, but not nearly as varied and populated as OoT.  That was my only gripe, however I thought the graphics in Wind Waker were gorgeous and they didn't bother me for a second.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

Oh my, why is last-gen's trainwreck in the Revo section?

[pudu]

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Originally posted by: zakkiel

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Oh, I get it, you're from a red-state.
It's not possible for a game to be overrated unless you believe that people can be deceived about how much fun they're having.

I believe games can and are overrated due to many circumstances like the publisher popularity, past game performance/popularity, fanboyism (sorry but best way I could think of saying it), the mood the reviewer was in at the time, and MANY other reasons.  I do, however, find what you said to be really funny and entertaining.  Maybe if you said, "It's not possible for a game like OoT to be overrated unless you believe that people can be deceived about how much fun they're having" it'd be more accurate.

[ShawnSt3r]

   That a good point professional ... I just couldnt help myself from replying to the "red-state" comment.

[ShawnSt3r]

      Let me post something that is on topic.  Before I begin, a little about myself, or rather, my disclaimer.

     I am currently in a state of gradual decline concerning my interest for video games.  This, I have found; like alot of people, is due to the lack of originality and myself being generally not excited about video games.  For this reason I am a die-hard Nintendo fan because, as many of you know, they seem to be the only company not afraid of innovation and new ideas.  Therefore, I am thoroughly excited about the Revolution for the exciting possibilities it brings to the gaming table.  - Thats my disclaimer.

     Now, as far as graphics are concerned, with me atleast, they always take a backseat to gameplay as long as the graphics themselves dont hinder the gameplay experience.  That being said, graphics are important to me in the new generation. (I own a top end pc and play alot of graphic intensive games) I want to see my Revolution games looking beautiful and fluid right along side ground breaking control and gameplay experiences.  Along that line, I believe that Nintendo will deliver in both areas, gameplay and graphics. (atleast enough to suit my expectations.) Especially after reading this Article. I know it was already posted elsewhere but it is such a highly interesting read concerning the hardware specifications of the Revolution I can't help but post it again.  

     That article leads me to believe that Nintendo will not only deliver fresh gameplay experience with its revolutionary controller, but will also offer significant gains in the area of AI with its (rumored I conceed) up to 2mb of memory.  

     I predict alot of graphics critics concerning Nintendos next new consoled will be relatively silenced once we see some of the games in motion.  Not to mention that we will possibly be able to rub in their faces the fact that Nintendo Revolution can process realistic AI that will simply not be possible on competing systems.  

[Hostile Creation]

I don't believe in politics.

I preferred WW to OoT, but only marginally.

[zakkiel]

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You can be impressed with what the art accomplishes and not by the art style itself. Just like classical music and movies. You can like how it changes the mood, creating sad moments and anxious moments, but not like the classical genre by itself.

If I like what it does in a game or a movie, I like it for itself.

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Oh my, why is last-gen's trainwreck in the Revo section?

Because the article that started this topic is manifestly stupid?

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I just wanted to say that I think it is entertaining that Zakkiel doesn't believe in art because of some baseless definition he places on it.

Art has no definition (unless you use mine, which is simply visual entertainment.) That's the problem. It's just a word you use to say "I approve of this kind of entertainment." There's no objective standard for what constitutes art and what constitutes crap, with the result that crap is now literally considered art, as long as you stick it in a can. Since I have no problem with people who define art in any way they want, it wouldn't make much sense for me to say I don't like them.

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Aren't you the person who jumped down my throat for not liking the idea that Smash Bros. Rev would change? I can't believe I would have an opinion that someone else disagrees with... its almost like I was arguing about whether or not Wind Waker was a good game.

No. I'm the person who jumped down your throat because you kept whining when people disagreed with you. Notice that I am not whining because a lot of people disagree with me. This comes of having the emotional maturity to know the difference between disagreement and personal attacks.

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I believe games can and are overrated due to many circumstances like the publisher popularity, past game performance/popularity, fanboyism (sorry but best way I could think of saying it), the mood the reviewer was in at the time, and MANY other reasons. I do, however, find what you said to be really funny and entertaining. Maybe if you said, "It's not possible for a game like OoT to be overrated unless you believe that people can be deceived about how much fun they're having" it'd be more accurate.

A game is good insofar as people have fun playing it. You can say a game sold more than it should have (a lot of people bought it and didn't have much fun) or that critics overrated it, in the sense that the numbers they gave didn't correspond to how much the gaming public enjoyed it. But you can't say a game is overrated by the people who play it. All that means is you happen to enjoy that game less than other players. Unless, as I said, you really do believe people can be wrong about how much fun they have with a game, due to fanboyism or whatnot, which is deeply patronizing and also just silly.

[ShawnSt3r]

    I don't believe in air.

[attackslug]

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Originally posted by: ShawnSt3r
Now, as far as graphics are concerned, with me atleast, they always take a backseat to gameplay as long as the graphics themselves dont hinder the gameplay experience.

This is my main concern with the capabilities of the Rev.  If the system is indeed a souped-up GC, then developers may very well be held back from what they want to put on the system.  This is the case especially for FPS games, which Nintendo has stated the Rev will be quite well suited for.
A modern FPS is generally very graphically intense and the first-person perspective only lets the user notice limitations such as blurry textures or blocky models all that much more easily.  Also, most modern FPS's include a fairly robust physics system which can be very taxing on the CPU, which could make developers sacrifice further graphical quality in order to support it.

[mantidor]

ha

I know is off topic, but you know why I loved the Wind Waker despite not liking Links model? because the game trascended for me artistic style and offered something so special and unique, that at the end, even if Link's model was so weird, I empathise with the character more than in any other game. I know its funny, but the world, for being cartoony, felt incredibly real, and Links exaggerated expressions helped to achieve that.