Author Topic: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"  (Read 44596 times)

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Offline attackslug

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #25 on: November 28, 2005, 01:40:55 PM »
Other comments made by Iwata in the past included something along the lines of "upgraded graphics being the price of admission" for this generation of consoles.  Not sure if that means "marginally upgraded" or what, but I doubt that the Gamecube will be nearly as graphically capable as the Rev.
Plus, all that money put into the development of a new GPU and CPU could imply that the Rev will have enough of a graphical improvement to be considered "next-gen".

Offline Avinash_Tyagi

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #26 on: November 28, 2005, 01:55:09 PM »
EGM's rumor mill has had a really bad track record in recent months so I'm going to take this with a very big grain of salt, however I do agree that the graphical leap will not be that huge, especially in light of how weak the jump from the Xbox to the 360 has been.

Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #27 on: November 28, 2005, 01:59:36 PM »
It all has to do with art design...Wind Waker is still the prettiest game ever in my eyes, and I'd love to see more games like it...
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:"the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #28 on: November 28, 2005, 04:32:14 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Bill Aurion
It all has to do with art design...Wind Waker is still the prettiest game ever in my eyes, and I'd love to see more games like it...


agreed



The only official comment from Nintendo is that it will be three times as powerful as GameCube.  If that is true and considering they won't have HD cutting down poly or frame rates the raw graphical effects like lighting should be better than 360; it should if nothing else be easier to develop for just as GameCube was easier for a programmer to get more from the hardware faster than a programmer on Xbox.  Nintendo showed with the Cube they know how to make clean hardware.



It would help if Nintendo would at least tell us if the CPU is single, double, or multi core so we can at least have an idea of where they're going (my vote goes to single for simplicity and efficiency).  If my name was Iwata I would go for one powerful (4-5 gig) single core CPU rather than a fragmented unit with multiple weak (2.5 gig) cores.  There is also still Han Solo's PPU rumor making the rounds; that guy also claims the GPU will be faster than the 360's.  One has to think about whether you want a multicore CPU that allows HD or if you want better graphics.  I want better graphics.  I want smoother models, transparencies, and dynamic lighting.  I come from a traditional art education and we learned that light is more important than texture.  From a distance your eye doesn't see bark on trees; you really only see lights, darks, and colors.  Its the equivalent of asking if you would rather watch Disney's Alice in Wonderland or Dinosaur.  

It may prove more expensive to build a single powerful core, but developers will be able to max out the hardware three times as fast as the 360 and nine times as fast as the PS3.  I feel the next generation will be a game of potential (hype) never met by Sony and MS, and Nintendo actually delivering once again like they did with the power of the Cube.  Really, if any journalist is gullable enough to swallow the poo Sony is feeding them they shouldn't be a journalist.  We all remember the bloated number war MS and Sony got into before the start of the previous (or would it still be the present?) generation; needless to say but PS2 didn't do Toy Story graphics, and only now with the 360 can MS actually do that dancing robot demo in game they showed for Xbox.



It would be suicide to rehash the Cube with a new controller and casing and call it next generation.

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Offline Spak-Spang

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #29 on: November 28, 2005, 04:43:18 PM »
KDR: Yeah its true...about their review  for Gunstar Super Heros.  Here are some quotes.

Robert A:

"Yes, Gunstar Super Heros is a disappointment.  Where the original boldly colored outside the lines of gaming convention, Super Hereos barely works up the energy to mimic its source material.  It's a cover band, and fans are expected to nod their heads to the beat of nostalgia."

Shane:

"This sequel faces some astronomically lofty expectations.  Unsurprisingly, it can't quite meet them.  Super Hereos delivers the same brand of Contra-derived sidescrolling gunplay as its revered predecessor, but a few questionable tweaks--the ommissions of weapon mixing and co-op play--dial down the intensity and complexity."



Basically, the review states as an original game it is awesome and is a wonderful achievement.  We recommend you buy it.  However, as a sequel to the original it doesn't meet our expectations so we are disappointed.  The scores for the game:

7.0, 8.0, 7.5  

These scores would have been higher if it wasn't a sequel to Gunstar Heros, and thats a fact.

I have read most of the entire magizine, and I was amazed that the reviewers picked apart Nintendo games in general for little things like this...yet ignored these similar complaints in other games.  In fact, case in point.  After EVERY REVIEWER railled on how horrible the camera system for PSP Grand Theft Auto was.  How the game was very hard to control, and the multiplayer aspects were not that great.  They all gave the game a 9.0 or better.

Huh?


Offline Chris1

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #30 on: November 28, 2005, 04:44:02 PM »
What about that comment "when you see the graphics you will say 'wow'" didn't Iwata say that at E3?  Well we'd definetly wouldn't say wow if they were barely better than GCs.  

Offline IceCold

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RE:"the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #31 on: November 28, 2005, 04:49:25 PM »
The nongamers would!!!
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #32 on: November 28, 2005, 05:08:05 PM »
"WOW... YOU'RE EFFIN' NUTS IWATA-SAN."
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Offline couchmonkey

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #33 on: November 29, 2005, 05:10:38 AM »
I think all info points to the system being less powerful than Xbox 360, but I don't care very much.  I agree with whoever said that they're looking forward to the next gen for Nintendo's new controls than for improved hardware.  I just don't see what justifies the Xbox 360s existence.  I've seen it in person and yes, the graphics look nicer, but the difference simply isn't big enough to justify spending $400-$500 CDN.  And to get the most out of the system's graphics, you have to own a $1500+ TV.  I have two words for that: Yeah, right.

(Edit) I agree with Bill that art direction is more important.  At least in this generation, we've reached the point where any competent developer can make a passable graphics engine, so the thing that separates the really beautiful games is their art styles.  I still want to see some improved graphics: Wind Waker was very beautiful, but I'd look forward to seeing the game without crow's nests popping out of nowhere in the middle of the ocean.  But I can't deny, that's a pretty insignificant improvement.  I'm looking forward to Nintendo's new ideas for playing games a lot more than the small issues they might fix with improved graphics.

Even though it may mostly be new controllers, the Rev hardware is still more valuable to me than what Microsoft has shown.
That's my opinion, not yours.
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Offline TMW

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2005, 06:13:23 AM »
Graphically wise...methinks you guys are underestimating what Nintendo is capable of.  This generation, the Gamecube was the cheapest by far, and even though MS was losing money on every Xbox sold, the Gamecube still gave it a run for their money power wise, and utterly trounced the PS2.  

I think something similar will happen next gen, as everyone is bascially saying the same thing they said at the beginning of this one...only Sony and MS's positions will be reversed..

I'm not really worried about the Rev's graphical properties.  If Ninty could pack that much power in the 'cube for $200 5 years ago...think what they can do for the same price this gen.  
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Offline majortom1981

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RE:"the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #35 on: November 29, 2005, 08:53:20 AM »
See this is what wild  factless  speculation gets you.

Notice the words early dev kits. even the ps3 dev kits didnt have all the power yet.


there are rumours that the cpu was just finished recently for the rev.

Nintendo themselves said that the early dev kits are basically gc ones.

why must people beleive the rumour mill of a gaming magazine?


You guys are believing a magazine over nintendo themselves.  

Offline Ian Sane

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #36 on: November 29, 2005, 09:16:58 AM »
"You guys are believing a magazine over nintendo themselves."

Well this is a potential negative for the Rev.  I think it would make much more sense to believe an unrelated third party.  It is in Nintendo's best interest that negative news regarding the Rev doesn't get out.  Therefore regarding something like this I wouldn't trust Nintendo's word at all.  Part of Nintendo's job is to make all of their products sound appealing.  They're a biased source.

It's not just Nintendo it's every company.  That's why we have a gaming media.  THQ is going to tell us their latest Kim Possible game rules.  Independent reviews inform us with a much more balanced opinion.

Offline Bill Aurion

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RE:"the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2005, 09:44:40 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"You guys are believing a magazine over nintendo themselves."

Well this is a potential negative for the Rev.  I think it would make much more sense to believe an unrelated third party.  It is in Nintendo's best interest that negative news regarding the Rev doesn't get out.  Therefore regarding something like this I wouldn't trust Nintendo's word at all.  Part of Nintendo's job is to make all of their products sound appealing.  They're a biased source.

EGM has a REALLY nasty history of baseless Ninty-bashing, so this so-assumed "third party" is just as "useless" as taking what Ninty says to be fact (which is kinda silly in the first place, considering Ninty always UNDERCUTS their graphical prowess...)
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Offline zakkiel

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2005, 11:01:29 AM »
If this rumor were even vaguely credible, conversations about the relative trustworthiness of the source vs. Nintendo would make sense.  
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Offline nemo_83

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RE:"the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2005, 11:16:45 AM »



Nintendo cannot engage in a price war with MS.  Its a mute point.  MS has shown their willing to take a $135 hit.  MS was willing to rush out hardware and software just to be the first out though they were the last out last time around.  MS has already put the flag in the ground in a price war against Sony.  That is what the 360's whole thing is going to be; it cost half as much as a PS3 and it has Halo 3.  By next fall when Nintendo launches MS will drop their price.  Nintendo need only worry about not being more expensive than MS next fall; they don't have to, I don't believe they can be less expensive than MS by next fall and not suffer a loss themselves in profit or power.  Production costs will go down on 360 and MS will be willing to lower the price and still lose $135 or more just to ensure they don't get stomped out by superior technology.  Logic says that any hardware that comes out a year or more after the 360 will be capable of things MS' hardware is not (cooling).  I don't expect Sony in America until spring 06 if not later.  



Nintendo needs to only position itself at the same price as MS; Sony will ensure that the PS3 will alienate people's wallets.  
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Offline mantidor

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2005, 12:06:15 PM »
The thing about the Wind Waker is that it wouldve been a beautiful game ten years ago, it is a beautiful game now, and it will still be a beautiful game ten years from now on, while Ocarina or Majora's Mask (and god knows I love those games) are starting to show their age, and I really think not even Twilight Princess will be able to stand the test of time.
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Offline pudu

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RE:"the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2005, 12:07:13 PM »
I agree with many points already provided.  I think what is important to consider is looking at Nintendo's past history and also using simple logic that anyone could assume and probably be right about.  Simply looking back to the GCN we see this happen:

-Sony touts its proprietary hardware as being both unique and the most powerful
-1 year later both MS and Nintendo release their consoles, both utilizing more traditional architecture
-MS goes for a brute force path with more or less powerful computer parts thrown in their "console"
-Nintendo goes more customized, attempting the best bang for your buck approach with a well rounded console

In the end the most unique and different console architecture (PS2) was never fully utilized due to its difficulty to develop for and some bottle necks that surfaced.  On the other hand the more traditional architecures (Xbox, GCN) clearly had more graphical prowess then the PS2, with the Xbox being the clear victor in the end.  As far as I see it Nintendo took the smartest route here with a more balanced machine that could be fully taken advantage of rather easily.  The Xbox, while more powerful, was basically a PC in a box that was a lot more powerful but also a lot more pricey.

What I think must be pointed out here is that the more proprietary/non mainstream architecture never lived up to what it was expected to do.  The "PS2s" of this next generation are the PS3 and, to a lesser extent, the Xbox 360.  I believe you can already see the underwhelming graphics in the first generation of 360 titles due to the difficulty of properly using the hardware to its fullest.  I'm guessing with 7 SPE's the PS3 will be undoubtably even harder to fully utilize.  I bet the Nintendo is keeping with their same tried and true strategy of delivering a balanced, well rounded, and easy to utilize architecture in the Revolution.  My guess is a powerful single CPU, a very competant GPU, and plenty of speedy RAM.  Where sales are more key earlier on in a consoles life span the Revolution will be using far more of its true potential as compared to its competition.  

As has been said in the past, you should never underestimate Nintendo.  I remember being worried for some reason that the Cube would be the worste graphically and the difference would be huge.  Nintendo, being their modest selves, has a track record for downplaying the tech specs of their consoles and focusing on the games and other essential aspects pertaining to the actual playing of the games.  This makes perfect sense when you think of why they are hesitant to release tech specs.  They are waiting to actually show it in action.  They want people to get the overall picture and concept behind it.  I can see why they were hesitant to show the controler in the first place.  Without software to back it up they are open for sucker punches from nay sayers who can use the lack of actual games as an opportunity to freely slam their concept.  While the controller is a big part of their plans for the Rev., it is only a peice of the puzzle.  So by simply looking at the strategy this past/current generation and comparing it to those of the next generation the possiblility of the newer architectures to never show what they have promised seems far more likely.  

Most importantly though is this simple fact:  with most everything technologicaly driven Time = Advances.  For the Revolution this will be no different.  By the time it launches it may have an entire year on the Xbox 360.  This fact alone sets my mind at rest.  Remember:

1.   PS2 with it's proprietary architecture releases with a high price point.
2.  1 year later GCN releases with a familiar yet streamlined architecutre at a lesser price point
3.  the GCN turns out to be more graphically powerful then the PS2
End of story

Oh and as far as the PS3 goes, my gut feeling is that in time it will prove to the be the most powerful console graphics wise and will be the new Xbox of the last gen graphicaly speaking when comparing it to the other two consoles (with the 360 and Rev. being very similar)

Offline zakkiel

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #42 on: November 29, 2005, 01:56:03 PM »
It's my belief that WW would have been ugly ten years ago, is ugly now, and will be ugly ten years from now. I can't remember a single moment when I was even vaguely impressed by the game's appearance other than draw distances, and I tried, I really did. It didn't bother me particularly playing it, but only because I sort of filtered it out after a while - stopped paying attention to what things looked like, and simply noticed them for their impact on gameplay. On the other hand, I do think WoW clearly looks far superior to EQ2, despite far fewer polygons and such. Triangle counts and pixel shaders definitely are no substitute for good art direction. But they help an artist achieve more.
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Offline Bill Aurion

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #43 on: November 29, 2005, 02:09:28 PM »
You've got to be f'n kidding me...
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #44 on: November 29, 2005, 02:38:18 PM »
totally rotten ogre-like lip!!!  
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Offline mantidor

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #45 on: November 29, 2005, 03:23:38 PM »
I think is imposible to not be impressed at least by one moment of the game, unless you are absolutely art-adverse, which would suck because it means you cant apreciate a Picasso or Van Gogh painting because they drew "weird".



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Offline Don'tHate742

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #46 on: November 29, 2005, 06:07:29 PM »
How can you gaze at the night sky and not be impressed? What about the Ghost ship? What about the castle? Even the prelliminary cut-scene was impressive.

Try drawing or painting something for a change. It'll help you appreciate art alot more.  
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Offline PaLaDiN

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #47 on: November 29, 2005, 06:14:33 PM »
Or maybe he just doesn't like cartoons.
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Offline wandering

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RE: "the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #48 on: November 29, 2005, 07:50:34 PM »
“...there are those who would...say, '...If I could just not have to work everyday...that would be the most wonderful life in the world.' They don't know life. Because what makes life mean something is purpose.  The battle. The struggle.  Even if you don't win it.” - Richard M. Nixon

Offline IceCold

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RE:"the graphics...barely better than those on Gamecube"
« Reply #49 on: November 29, 2005, 07:56:07 PM »
Hey the picture changed! I'm hallucinating!!
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