Author Topic: Back to the Future...Ed Fries talks about the industry, Nintendo, and REV  (Read 4445 times)

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Offline nemo_83

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ed talks about the industry; its too long to post

Here are some quotes.

"Nintendo's saying that they're going to have a revolution the next time around. Nobody knows—and I've talked to everybody in the game business—whether they really do have a revolution or not. In a way, I think that's smarter thinking than chasing what the competitors are doing. If could really introduce something that is very different and original, then at least you have a chance. If you just chase, you're always number two by definition."

"I'm not a doom-and-gloom guy. There's a lot of people that are nervous about the economics of the business, and how we can have 200-person teams working on games for the same amount of revenue that we had a few years ago—although that's not really true [because] business has been growing. I think there's going to be less titles fighting for more money, so that's a very positive thing. It's just that the titles are going to cost more to make.

Pessimists think that [fewer] titles at a higher budget mean that the title won't be as interesting or creative or innovative. What I would say is that people who try [thinking] that approach will fail because the reason that gamers buy games is because they're creative, original and interesting. The people who make those types of games will be successful, and the people who don't won't be. That's why I'm optimistic about it. I think the market will sort itself out. People who do interesting [and] good work will attract an audience just like always."

"For Western publishers, nobody asks for my advice on that because they all feel the same way, which is … fully supporting Xbox 360 and Sony's PlayStation 3. They don't really know what's going to happen in the war between the two, and they don't really care. They like fact that there are two warring platforms, and that has some benefits to them in their negotiations with each of the individual platforms. So they're going to support both and see what happens.

Nintendo … I think everybody is kind of confused by right now. Publishers don't know what to think about Nintendo—whether this Revolution thing is even going to happen, whether it's going to be cool or not, or whether Nintendo's just going to stop making consoles in the living room and just become a software publisher. Right now there doesn't seem to be a lot of information from Nintendo telling people what to do, so everybody's very, very wait-and-see on the Nintendo platform—including me.

Japanese publishers are very different by publisher, so it's hard to put them all in one bucket. I think Konami is the most aggressively Western of the publishers. Many of the other Japanese publishers behave pretty similarly [and] they have similar attitudes. Many of the other publishers want something to be true that's not true, basically. They want there to be a real difference between the two platforms, so they want the audience to be different and then they like to design special games for each platform that speaks to that unique audience. But it's not true. When you go out and look at the audience who buys PS2 versus Xbox—or who will buy PS3 versus Xbox 360—it's competition for the same people.

Like I said, the Japanese publishers are in a very tricky position because their home market is shrinking. They know they have to go overseas [and] they have some difficulty adapting their content. (I'm just speaking really broadly, so that doesn't apply to everybody and every situation). They know [that] they have to make their content be more acceptable in the West, but the vast majority of income still comes from Japan. And in Japan, it's a one-console market: PlayStation. You'd say, "Why don't they just go and do the thing that every other publisher does, which is support both and see what happens?" It just seems so obvious. The reason is [that] they risk ticking off Sony in Japan where Sony really controls the market. They have a difficult balancing act that they have to do. They just have to placate both sides."


"In the case of Sony and Microsoft, I think that I would say the same thing. It's pretty clear that the battle is not going to be so much about hardware, because the hardware is pretty similar between the two. The battle is about software, whether that's something like [Xbox] Live or games. That's where I would invest my money. But you see somewhat the opposite behavior. They've actually shrunk the first-party group somewhat since I left [Microsoft], and I believe at Sony there's actually pressure on the number of titles that they're producing as their first-party [software]. To me, if there are exclusive titles that are readily available, that could be one of the big drivers to why someone's going to buy one. So I would encourage both of them to spend more making first-party exclusive games.

In the case of Nintendo, I think they really get that. Their titles define their hardware. The Nintendo DS is outselling the PSP—which is a vastly superior piece of hardware—because of a first-party software title called Nintendogs, which is very original and creative. You see stuff like that [and] it'll drive everything that the business is about. I don't think Nintendo's advice needs to be in that area.

I think Nintendo really needs to be clear with both consumers and publishers about what the Revolution is—whether it's real or not—and they need to get that information out. Otherwise, there's just not going to be an opportunity for them. The stuff about, "We don't want to introduce these ideas because we're afraid people might steal them;" the PS3 and Xbox 360 are set—they can't go back and redesign that hardware. I don't even believe that argument. So either they don't have any revolutionary ideas, or for some reason they're just being really coy about it. I think they're doing a lot of damage to themselves right now by being coy about it.

I think Nintendo's always underestimated the importance of having full support from all the third parties. They were keeping the third parties down [and] Sony freed them. And yeah, they [the third parties] put out a lot of crappy stuff. That's why Nintendo was keeping them down. They were afraid that they were going to put out a lot of crappy stuff—which is what they did—but it didn't destroy the business."



Well they're crappy stuff hasn't killed it yet, but I believe it has slowed growth.  Hopefully things will sort themselves out like he said.  That would mean though that Nintendo would kill with the REV.  It could happen, but I have always been a realist.  The face of the industry is big guns and bigger boobs.  It has become self absorbed.  The greatest threat to the game industry is the game industry.  What is going to happen is gamers are going to start making their own games.  The independent developer will rise as the process becomes more direct and user friendly similar to how it only takes one person with a camera to make a movie.  Someone will come along, some new idea will explode.  Like when Doom came out, but ten times as big and far easier to customize.

I see Nintendo with the ability to steal the flag while MS and Sony go at each others' throats over a single market of sports gamers; what will MS and Sony do if EA comes out with their own console.  Nintendo is the only company that can have a console without EA games.  Sega couldn't even do it with the Dreamcast.  MS and Sony would cave in.  Nintendo has a brief opportunity to get a lot of Japanese publishers on board for the REV; they just need to come out with something that is awesome.  MS is not going to be able to buy Japanese consumers, and Sony doesn't want Japanese developers giving MS exclusives.  Game makers want to access alternative markets from the one Sony and MS are gunning for.  Really it is more of a matter of Nintendo nolonger seeming like the tiku tiku tiku!  company but rather the everyone company; while MS and Sony have become something new and grotesque, a carnal celebration of fake sex and pointless violence.



Edit:   cube.ign says developers do know
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Offline OptimusPrime

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The guy makes some good points. Also brings up the "No one except Nintendo knows the Revolution-hardware/secret/gadgetdety" feeling that some people are constantly whining about. Good chance no one wanted to talk about it with him to break any NDA (and get killed by N's l33t NDANinja's).

The crappy stuff hasn't killed it yet, indeed. But the DS most promising weirdo titles are creating a new kind of atmosphere. One were gamers are starting to realise that they're indeed making a lot "been there done that but now it looks better!!" games and we don't have to take that. An Elektroplankton, or Ace attorney or Nintendogs or Kirby Canvas and so on. Nintendo has to take it to next level indeed with the Revolution. Show us some games with real charm, because that what's all those mentioned DS-games do, charm you.
Guns and boobs are good for a few types of games not gaming in general. And I am hoping Nintendo and others on the Revolution can show that.
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Offline BigJim

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Nice reading.

If the developers are STILL taking a wait and see attitude, then it looks like 3rd party support is going to be pretty drab for the first 12-18 months. They need to establish quarterly/annual budgets and start developing *yesterday* to get something out in a year. It doesn't sound like it's happening, which is really unfortunate.

Couldn't agree more regarding the comments on opening up the platform. Sadly Reggie (or someone?) suggested Nintendo is going to continue to pick and choose the game library by selecting the best of the best. There's wisdom to that, but limiting the game options can also backfire.  I would have hoped they learned that with N64 and GameCube, but apparently not.
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Offline Ian Sane

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"the reason that gamers buy games is because they're creative, original and interesting."

That's a hopeful pipe dream and everyone knows that.  If that was real then Nintendo would have kicked ass with the Cube because of games like Pikmin, Animal Crossing, and Metroid Prime (it's a franchise game but it was very original).  Instead stuff like Halo which hasn't really done anything significant for the FPS genre sold huge.  Marketing is what matters.  MS sells cliche generic games but they make them look amazing in the commercials so they sell huge.  Nintendo makes creative games and then makes them about as appealing as a cheese grater to the face in commercials so they don't sell nearly as well.  I think that new ideas or what is perceived as new ideas (Halo again looks new because it has a new IP and brought some PC FPS elements to consoles) are what ultimately become killer apps but creativity is only what keeps a game selling.  Marketing is what brings the initial adopters to the table so that they can tell all of their friends how great the game is.

"If the developers are STILL taking a wait and see attitude, then it looks like 3rd party support is going to be pretty drab for the first 12-18 months."

Therefore it's going to be drab forever.  In 12-18 months the Rev's placing in the console wars will be set.  If it isn't at least a serious threat to the number two slot no one is going to believe it ever will be.  Therefore third parties won't give it a chance.  But the Rev won't get the sales or market share it needs to attract those third parties if it has dismal third party support during that time.  What really sunk the Cube was that for the first 8 months there wasn't anything to play beyond the launch lineup.  Two months in it was like owning a dead console.  It just made such a terrible first impression that it didn't matter what third party games Nintendo scored or what promotions they had or anything.  So poor third party support for the first year for the Rev will do the same thing.  Crappy first impression = crappy performance in console wars.  And each "failure" creates a larger negative bias next time around so it just gets worse if nothing is fixed.  Nintendo either has to get third parties working NOW or they have to realise something with Pokemon Red/Blue selling power to make up for poor third party support.

I'm hoping that NDAs are keeping everything hush-hush but if third parties really don't know what's up yet the Rev is probably screwed unless Nintendo REALLY has something hot up their sleeve.

Offline Deguello

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I believe some third parties have seen what the Rev's about.  The reason Ed Fries assumes they don't know is because he doesn't know, which is irrelevant mainly because he isn't even a developer anymore.  
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Offline Famicom

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Good read. Fries is spot on in all of his assessments IMO. I'm still patiently waiting for the day Nintendo blows the lid off the Rev. It'll either be a very good day, or a very bad day....

And I really don't see how the poster on the Nintendo forums read into anything about Nintendo being in trouble. Clearly Fries feels Nintendo's goal is a good one, just their tight lip may be more harmful than helpful.
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Offline Artimus

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Interesting but I can't believe he truly thinks innovation and quality sell.

Enter the Matrix anyone?

Offline Nile Boogie

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Good Read. I really like the idea of the "Indie Game Maker". I wish Nintendo could hand out Retro Dev kits to college kids and let them have at it. As in the music and movie industries, the Independent Studio always seems to put out quality work and with the "Hollywoodization" of our pastime it only seems like a matter of time before Video Games are in the same context.  
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Offline Ian Sane

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I don't think we'll really see indie game makers to the same level as films and music.  You require a certain of programming skill to make a game that even works.  However you don't technically need any skill to film a movie.  You just grab a camera and shoot.  Now a lack of skill or experience can limit how good the film is but you can still make one.  Same with music.  You can grab a Casio keyboard and write a song by ear without even any formal music training.  You're probably going to be pretty limited but you can do it.  Games just have a much higher level of minimum professionalism just to get them working.

Offline nemo_83

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I'm glad things came back around to the indie subject.

"However you don't technically need any skill to film a movie. You just grab a camera and shoot. Now a lack of skill or experience can limit how good the film is but you can still make one."

Exactly the example I was going to give.  A camera is very direct; the more direct something is, the closer it is to art.  The more game development requires a doctors in calculus, the further from art it will get.  200 man teams speaks to me the death of innovation in games made by big companies.  It only takes one person with one camera to make a good movie.  Some people are just natural; others languish for years over perfecting their techniques, but either way the medium is both accessable and able to be deeply developed.

The art of game making is what needs to be defined.  I believe the heart of it all is game design; the design of the adventure, world, characters.  Not the art of writing the engine.  One day 'the engine' will be something standardized and built into the dev kits and things like physics and lighting will be as easy as hitting a switch.  All that will be left is for small teams or individuals to create the adventure, write the story, import the sounds and music, etc.

The line between the dev kit and the home console will blur, or the console will die.  In five years people will be buying PSP/DS style PCs that are full blown portable pirate machines able to play any illegal files including movies, music, and PC, handheld, and console games.  This is why Nintendo is stepping up now with the REV trying to get what money they can before any smuck on the street can have a cellphone or pda that can play many past PC game as well as emulators.

It comes back to the question of what defines a home console.  What justifies buying a console and having to pay for the games.  What does the console allow that is new.  One way of giving consumers incentive is to make the console a tool allowing gamers to do things with their games they can't with anything else like customize.  The other way of preventing piracy is to make the controller or display integral for the software (yeah, I'm talking about VR).

 
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Offline KDR_11k

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You can grab Flash and make a game. That's no different to taking a camcorder and making a movie. The result will suck and not make any money but hell, if you want to do it right you need skill anyway.

Offline MrMojoRising

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Quote

All that will be left is for small teams or individuals to create the adventure, write the story, import the sounds and music, etc.


That would just lead to a bunch of really boring games that are all clones of each other.  I don't want five games that all play exactly like OoT except they all have different stories and music.  Video games are a completely different medium than movies or music.  They're more comparable to TV in that TV shows are made for entertainment but some shows still contain artistic merit.  For instance, I love Family guy, it is a very funny show with some great satire and such.  The people who draw it are talented artists...however Family Guy is made to entertain, to make us laugh and enjoy life for a half hour.  It is not made to be a piece of art.  In the end it is so brilliant that I would consider it a masterpiece, but it's still not really art.  The same thing is true of a game like SSB:M.  It is intended for its audience to have fun and enjoy it, not to come away with some great lesson on life or anything.  The people who make the game are very talented, but they are creating entertainment...an incredibly fun form of entertainment.

Then there are those TV shows (or video games) that both entertain and make you think and therefore still contain artistic merit.  I would personally say M*A*S*H fits this mold.  It had a message that war sucks, but it still had stupid jokes to make it entertaining.  On the video game side there is something like elektroplankton, which has the creativity and artsy part to it, but it will also entertain you.

If a game is just a movie with buttons, I'd rather watch a movie.  I don't play Mario games to find out if he saves the princess, I play them because they're fun.

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Ed Fries Back to the Future...
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2005, 03:22:39 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: MrMojoRising
Quote

All that will be left is for small teams or individuals to create the adventure, write the story, import the sounds and music, etc.


That would just lead to a bunch of really boring games that are all clones of each other.  I don't want five games that all play exactly like OoT except they all have different stories and music.  Video games are a completely different medium than movies or music.  They're more comparable to TV in that TV shows are made for entertainment but some shows still contain artistic merit.  For instance, I love Family guy, it is a very funny show with some great satire and such.  The people who draw it are talented artists...however Family Guy is made to entertain, to make us laugh and enjoy life for a half hour.  It is not made to be a piece of art.  In the end it is so brilliant that I would consider it a masterpiece, but it's still not really art.  The same thing is true of a game like SSB:M.  It is intended for its audience to have fun and enjoy it, not to come away with some great lesson on life or anything.  The people who make the game are very talented, but they are creating entertainment...an incredibly fun form of entertainment.

Then there are those TV shows (or video games) that both entertain and make you think and therefore still contain artistic merit.  I would personally say M*A*S*H fits this mold.  It had a message that war sucks, but it still had stupid jokes to make it entertaining.  On the video game side there is something like elektroplankton, which has the creativity and artsy part to it, but it will also entertain you.

If a game is just a movie with buttons, I'd rather watch a movie.  I don't play Mario games to find out if he saves the princess, I play them because they're fun.



I believe the video game is the meeting place between the novel and the movie.  It is written out like a novel in which an object is brought to the attention of the reader and that object is used again later on to generate effect, metaphors, allusions, etc.  However games are displayed like a movie in that rather than litterally being told you come upon three trees; the story is told by action in the image.  You walk up to three trees.  You see the three trees when the come into view.  It takes the saying, "show, don't tell," and it brings it to real time.  You become the character, you stay with the character, and you only see things from that character's perspective (or you disrupt the continuity).

The downside is that game development right now is not direct like writing a novel or filming a movie.  Making a game right now is not as easy as taking a few meat puppets outside on a sunny day with the 'big idea' and a camera.  What that directness allows is for one's natural ability to shine through where punching code to program logic in a game is more math than art.

Nintendo wants to make non-games; they can make non-games for gamers.  The idea here is that the polygon structures would be simple enough that every day people can even sit down and have fun actually creating a character in a game out of raw polys.  This would work out well in my opinion with Nintendo's new controller either using gyros or haptics to make it easier to grasp and at the same time allowing for the ambitious to spend hours perfecting their in game characters, environments, and items.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Ed Fries Back to the Future...
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2005, 09:00:56 PM »
Everyday people can sit down and make a bunch of polies with existing software. Just as the can scribble lines on paper. The difficulty is to get it to look like what you want it to look like.

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Ed Fries Back to the Future...
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2005, 12:58:20 PM »
Even if you find an emulator that you can mod, its not user friendly, its illegal, you can't distribute it, etc.  The benefits of Nintendo coming out and providing roms for download on N64 is that they can make it so we can play those old games online, mod them, and trade the mods over Nintendo's free network.  Nintendo would be in control of the whole operation making sure mods would not be sold for profit.  And it adds replayability to almost all past games.  The reason I brought up polygon editing tools was because it would work well for Nintendo to include such programs and their revolutionary interface could allow them to simplify it so that even your girlfriend can sit down and goof off creating her own worlds.  Say you put in Nintendo Revolution Paint and load up a rom and rip what you want and them continue by loading up another rom and you can mix and match instantly the sprites, animations, music, engines, etc directly from roms.  You could sample from all 2d Mario game for your creations.  

The key is it cuts directly for the hardcore gamers.  
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Offline MrMojoRising

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RE:Ed Fries Back to the Future...
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2005, 12:55:29 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: nemo_83
Even if you find an emulator that you can mod, its not user friendly, its illegal, you can't distribute it, etc.  The benefits of Nintendo coming out and providing roms for download on N64 is that they can make it so we can play those old games online, mod them, and trade the mods over Nintendo's free network.  Nintendo would be in control of the whole operation making sure mods would not be sold for profit.  And it adds replayability to almost all past games.  The reason I brought up polygon editing tools was because it would work well for Nintendo to include such programs and their revolutionary interface could allow them to simplify it so that even your girlfriend can sit down and goof off creating her own worlds.  Say you put in Nintendo Revolution Paint and load up a rom and rip what you want and them continue by loading up another rom and you can mix and match instantly the sprites, animations, music, engines, etc directly from roms.  You could sample from all 2d Mario game for your creations.  

The key is it cuts directly for the hardcore gamers.


That would be cool, especially since I could put myself into Super Mario World (as long as this allows me to import images from the frash memory).  As long as it stays a sort of fun thing for gamers to mess with and there isn't ever that "standardized game engine" that makes all games the same except for the characters and story, because the great thing about video games is that they can be totally cracked out and make no sense in the real world and still be great.  If Mario had real physics it would suck.  Basically I'm saying I don't want a million of the same game all with different faces but the same stuff.  I like stories, but movies and books work well enough for them, a game should have fun interesting gameplay AND good characters, story etc.