Author Topic: Problems with 3D Control in today´s games  (Read 13529 times)

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Offline Gamebasher

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Problems with 3D Control in today´s games
« on: June 29, 2005, 05:46:52 PM »
I feel that something which has been bothering me for a long time, could be worthy of a topic right here on PGC Forums.

See, I look upon myself as an avid gamer who likes to play the best games available with great story, great graphics and great gameplay. Great entertainment. But sometimes, more often than I would like, games that I play wind up becoming so annoying to play through that they go from being entertainment to become... harassment!

Yes, many times I should like to give the developers a telling IN CAPITOL LETTERS after going through another frustrating gaming session. I really do not look upon games as a kind of tribulation, where I have to go through hell in order to make it to the end and see victory. But they become it many times. Why?

Because of inherent problems in the very design of the interface between me and the gameworld: the 3D controller!

I have experienced problems with gamecontrol in a number of games over the years. On Nintendo 64 it was really starting, because of the center position of the analogue stick on the three pronged controller. This meant I got cramps in my hands during extended play, since I could only comfortable hold the joypad if I stretched my thumb to the 2. prong on the controller. I really never thought that one could properly control Mario, for instance, holding the N64 joypad differently. I think that nomatter how you held it, the cramps would eventually set in sooner or later.

While I admit that the Nintendo 64 controller was innovative, it could have been designed better to eliminate the handcramps.  Another problem was handsweat. Sometimes I died in a critical moment on a level, because my hand slipped entirely out of grip since I was sweating too much in the hands and NOT noticing so for reasons on intense concentration. A rubbery finish on the sides, and on top of the official controllers thumb pad, could have solved that problem. But such problems are small, when compared to the biggest problem which I have faced with the current 3D controllers on the market: the lack of precise aiming. I should of course include that I play Shooter/FPS games now and then, and it is here that I experience the biggest problems.

There are so many shooters on the market these days, and they all require precise aiming to actually give you the feeling that you aim for real and shoot! Why didn´t Nintendo think of that? How could they be so narrow minded and design a controller (which everyone has copied since, meaning that it is the standard of 3D control overall) with Mario 64 specifically in mind? That is only ONE game, for crying out loud? It spells madness to tailor a controller to one game, one game category (Platform), when there is so many OTHER games categories coming right up afterwards and which DO NOT work properly with that type of controller!! All the PC Gamers I talk to, told me they will NOT ever play a shooter on a console simply because they cannot hit anything properly with the current controllers!! One guy I spoke to had bought an XBOX and he sold it immediately once he discovered how difficult it was to aim with the control stick! Now he ONLY plays PC games where he can use a mouse. This is mainly what I get to hear everywhere I talk to people about games.

However, the lack of precise aiming was my biggest ever problem in Resident Evil 4. This game is not merely a Shooter, but as much an RPG and one of the best such RPG´s in recent memory. But in my opinion it´s value is compromised by the problem with the interface.

I got insanely annoyed when facing many of the bosses and saw myself dying 10-15 times in a row on EASY setting, because I either couldn´t steer the darn laser sight properly with the fiddly control stick and for instance hit the bosses on the specific places on their bodies, where Plagas were growing, in time before they got to me or couldn´t react quickly enough at the many quicktime events where I am required to "suddenly" blazingly fast respond in a splitsecond to avoid getting hit by a rock or a huge monster or a dumb Marine who look like Rambo´s forgotten brother. It was especially grim in the shooting minigames, where I was unable to get all the bottlecaps simply because I could not HIT the damn target properly (i.e. where Ashley was positioned inbetween without also hitting her repeadetly). In the game with the female agent, I had to give up at the last boss because I could not hit him properly, thus dying all the time, until I gave up, realizing that for me it was impossible to give him the Hasta La Vista Baby-blow at the end because I could not react like I wanted to: just plain AIM and SHOOT and HIT! It was more like TRYING to aim and MISS THE SHOT and therefore NOT hit! Until I broke a controller in utter frustration!

While I could get used to the quicktime events, I could never get used to the aforementioned problem of aiming.  Because the current 3D controllers are not suited for aiming well, because of the elevation of the round thumbpad on top of the stick itself, sitting on top of the stick on its underside.

Said elevation creates a slight delay inbetween the moment you move it in any direction and until it "reacts". I really don´t know of any other way to express the way I experience that problem. But there you have it.  It´s just too much to have to sit and fiddle with aiming back and forth like a drunken idiot, when really this should be FAST, DIRECT, SIMPLE! It isn´t so in that game (and many others), because the control is not suited for it. If I am going up against those types of monsters in that world of RE4, I want to respond quickly and eloquently like a good field agent would for real, NOT like I am some amateur out to get killed 20 times before I get started. To feel that I cannot respond like I should in lifethreatening situations in the game, because the interface between ME and the GAMEWORLD is TOO PRIMITIVE, is the cause for great frustration. And that is what I mean when I say that (game-) entertainment becomes (game-) harassment!

So I think that a great game such as Resident Evil 4 should have been made differently, so that the frustration stemming from lack of precise aiming would have been eliminated. I had that same problem with Zelda: OOT and MM some times. They did something with the controls in Mario Golf, which I think could help Capcom to get ideas for giving a better control of aiming in Resident Evil 5.



   
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in today´s games
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2005, 06:29:25 PM »
You really need to clearly define what you mean by "precise" aiming.

I also don't see why you're having so much trouble with RE4's aiming system.  If you can follow the red laser path and see that you don't have a "bead" on your target, you should be able decide if you're too far up/down/left/right, and correct your aim accordingly.

I had little trouble with the end of Assignment Hot Chick.  I hardly play PC shooters (only the tactical shooters from the era where the Tom Clancy name actually meant decent games), and Perfect Dark is the only console shooter I like.

My friend, she's not an uberly-experienced hardcore gamer like many of us here.  RE4 was the closest thing she's ever played to an FPS, and she had little trouble on Normal difficulty.  And she got most, if not all the bottlecaps.

Really, is there something wrong with your controller?
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Offline Mario

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in today´s games
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2005, 06:29:53 PM »
Resident Evil 4 is perfect as it is, leave it be, they shouldn't change it just because YOU suck at aiming, I had no problem with it.

I have a different problem with realistic games in general because i'm short sighted, and I only wear glasses when looking at my tv screen, so I notice details in games that I don't notice in real life, because in real life these things are just blurring things in the background, in games they are often IN YOUR FACE features, it just makes a lot of things look weird to me.

Why are you complaining about Nintendo's controllers/analog sticks? The placement of the analog sticks on the PSX/PS2 in my opinion are MUCH worse, but then i'm talking from a comfort perspective, I have no idea what you're on about. =P

Wait.. you ARE aware of the proper way to hold an N64 controller aren't you? You shouldn't need to move your thumb over.

Offline Gamebasher

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RE:Problems with 3D Control in today´s games
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2005, 09:31:56 PM »
Professional666, my problem is that I cannot keep the damn laserbeam steady enough! It goes back and forth like a drunken idiot, while I try to aim, and all I get is the same all of the time. I cannot keep it still, and THEREFORE I cannot aim accurately. I guess I should have to SHOW it to you, in order for you to understand. I attribute the problem directly to the "tallness" of the thumbstick above the joypads surface, which I feel is making it impossible for me to aim steadily.

Like I said, I cannot keep the laser pointer still during aiming, meaning that it jumps up and down in little jerks while I try to aim which is particularly problematic when aiming at something which is inbetween other objects you aren´t supposed to hit (for instance Ashley in the shooting mini games). Thus crucial time is used to get it to be still and get the laserpointer over on the target and fire. That cost me too many bottle caps.

The tallness of the stick causes it, and this is never the problem with a mouse which is "at the base of everything" so to speak and therefore aims smoothly and accurately because it can follow the surface of a steady surface and not hover "up in the air" somewhere like the stick does as it is high above "the ground". It really is quite simple to see, once you understand what I mean. Even if you yourselves don´t experience that problem.

From the small target group I asked, I found that they represent both console gamers and PC gamers, and I thus conclude that there are some who can use the analogue control stick for aiming and some who can´t. It seems that it is a very divided set of two groups. But alone the fact that some cannot means that there is a problem.

Why? Because if some just plain hates the current type of standard console analogue controller for reasons explained, it automaticaly means they will jump ship to play on PC´s (and so they do, I hear), and that is not good music in, say, Nintendo´s ears! They want to increase the marketshare of videogaming, and have already shown a new method of control with the DS, so I cannot be as far off as you think. In fact, I think even Nintendo could understand my criticism. If a big survey was made to find how many people have trouble with the analogue controller, and how many would like a new design, I am sure it would be seen that many would want a new type of "all-access" controller so that any TYPE of gamer could be happy with both the games and GAME CONTROLLER on consoles.

And, YES, Mario, I DO know how to hold an N64 controller!  
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Offline ThePerm

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in today´s games
« Reply #4 on: June 29, 2005, 09:59:20 PM »
maybe your controller is defective..i ran into alot of controller problems while playing resident evil...theyv been used alot and are rather worn..but when i had them all cleaned off and ready everything worked like a charm.
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Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2005, 11:54:49 PM »
Hmm yeah, if I can't see how you're moving the control stick, I can't give my own diagnosis of the problem, Gamebasher.  So I'll do some guessing.

I'll assume you have a fully-functional controller, with an analog stick that has a sufficiently small neutral-zone.  Forgive what sounds like a lecture but I gotta make a frame of reference somehow.

In RE4's gunplay, one of Leon's natural characteristics is he does not sit completely still while aiming.  If we hold R-trigger out the blue, he raises his weapon, slightly SLIGHTLY twitching (affecting long-distance shots), but still maintains a good shot for point-blank range.  In fact, he's more steady at "drawing a straight line" with the aiming laser than by leaving the control stick in the neutral position.  This should already by apparent, and I hope this isn't the problem you're talking about, since it's relatively easy to adjust for.  Next...

How the analog stick translates into motion in aiming scenarios...  How far you move the analog stick away from its neutral postion determines the rate at which Leon turns.  If the stick is moved *slightly* to the right, Leon turns *slowly* to the right.  If the stick is moved to the far right position, Leon turns to the rightly quickly (as much as the game allows).  Analog aiming determines rates of movement, while PC mouse aiming is point-to-point.  Knowing this, [with the analog stick] you should be able to aim, swing your laser over, and stop at the target.  Physically, you moved the analog stick away from neutral, then either 1) as soon as the laser met the target, you quickly returned to the neutral position to prevent further turning, giving you a steady position on the target... 2)  you slowed down your turning by gradually returning the stick to neutral, finally stopping on neutral when you meet the target.  Either way, recognizing these turning rates is important for "stopping at the right spot."  It's not really "push a little, move a little," it's "push a little, move slowly" -- like a gas pedal.  [and once you have a bead on the target, hesitating too long will invite Leon's twitching to mess you up]

If you're constantly overshooting your target (missing by stopping your aim short of, or past the target), then it sounds to me like you're moving the analog stick too far/fast/much, and haven't come to grips with "finer" movement as I attempted to explain above.  That or your controller's gone stoopid.

If your analog stick IS worn out, and you have a large "dead" neutral zone, then that means you'd have to move the stick further away from the absolute center for the smallest degrees of movement to register.  This also means your extreme positions are pushed further away, making "far left" act like "medium left" (or not do a damn thing), for example.  Obviously that will hinder your finer aiming adjustments with Leon.

This is me playing the RE4 demo last summer.  If your aim's AT LEAST this steady, then you should've had few problems by the end of the game.  If NOT, then you've gotta do some re-evaluating.  Just trying to help out.

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Offline vudu

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2005, 08:52:49 AM »
Quote

In RE4's gunplay, one of Leon's natural characteristics is he does not sit completely still while aiming. If we hold R-trigger out the blue, he raises his weapon, slightly SLIGHTLY twitching (affecting long-distance shots), but still maintains a good shot for point-blank range.
To expand on what Pro666 said, have you tried buying/using a stock for the guns that have one (i.e. Red9 & TMP)?  It makes your aim much more steady.
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Offline Gamebasher

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RE:Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2005, 11:34:04 AM »
Professional 666, your comments to my topic are interesting:

"Either way, recognizing these turning rates is important for "stopping at the right spot." It's not really "push a little, move a little," it's "push a little, move slowly" -- like a gas pedal. [and once you have a bead on the target, hesitating too long will invite Leon's twitching to mess you up]"

I did try the push a little, move slowly you explain to me. And actually it worked if I did it that way! I understand exactly what you mean, when you explain the mechanics of movement with the analogue. But I didn´t like to do it that way (push a little, move slowly). And I guess that is where the whole problem lies then. What I prefer doing instead, is not possible in that game: I want to quickly and decisively move the laserpointer over on the targets and shoot. I cannot make room for an aiming method which requires me to "glide" the laserpointer over on the target, here in particular not while being in the shooting galleries where things move so fast all the time! That really affects me psychologically. I guess I simply do it (move the weapon) in the way I would if I were in a real shooting gallery - something which is not comfortable for me to do through the analogue controller type of interface. So therefore I will probably have to resort to playing such games with a mouse, in order to be satisfied! But thanks for your explanation anyway. I will take a look at the link you included, and give you my impression. Just bought Timesplitters 3, and I am looking forward to playing it a lot. Maybe I will find the aiming easier there.

And VUDU: Yes, I did buy the stock for the TMP, but I do not recall any other weapons where I could buy that shot stabilizer!  
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Offline Artimus

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2005, 09:34:05 AM »
I'm confused, you held the Nintendo controller on the sides when playing Mario!? Because I can't think why else your hand would cramp!

Offline Shecky

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2005, 05:07:36 AM »
I knew a few people who held it like that....

Visual Aids to the rescue....

The way I hold it normaly
The way Gamebasher is describing
Another alt I've witnessed

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #10 on: July 04, 2005, 07:57:30 AM »
Simple solution: Stop buying console FPSes, buy them for the PC. What you're asking for is absolute control as offered by a mouse or a touchpad (that behaves like a mouse). The controller can't do that for obvious reasons. Maybe the Rev can, maybe it can't. What matters is that your GC can't. Buy a PC FPS (I'd recommend Battlefield 2 but whatever floats your boat) and start fragging.

Offline nickmitch

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #11 on: July 04, 2005, 01:22:48 PM »
What's the difference between 1 and 3?
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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #12 on: July 04, 2005, 01:37:24 PM »
"What matters is that your GC can't. Buy a PC FPS (I'd recommend Battlefield 2 but whatever floats your boat) and start fragging. "

Not everyone has a nasa super computer to play pc game.
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Offline Shecky

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RE:Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #13 on: July 04, 2005, 02:47:38 PM »
Quote

Originally posted by: TVman
What's the difference between 1 and 3?


Wrists... 3 was supposidly more relaxing for the wrists, but I could never get the hang of playing like that.  I was used to 1 and would just revert to it without thinking.

If your holding 3 right there should be no bends in your wrists.

Offline nickmitch

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #14 on: July 04, 2005, 03:30:39 PM »
i'm not sure, but I think I get it.
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Offline Artimus

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #15 on: July 04, 2005, 05:34:50 PM »
Why would anyone play it using 2? That's stupid!

Offline stevey

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #16 on: July 04, 2005, 06:10:36 PM »
# 2 look like your holding a ps controller.
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Offline nickmitch

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #17 on: July 04, 2005, 07:10:59 PM »
Well, if you needed to use L. . .
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #18 on: July 05, 2005, 12:13:48 AM »
Not everyone has a nasa super computer to play pc game.

Um, the NASA recently upgraded to 486s. They are always 10 years behind when it comes to computers because they want to make sure the stuff works perfectly and rocket science doesn't need as much power as MS Office.

Battlefield 2 runs even on the comp my dad has and he uses mostly hand-me-down parts I don't need anymore. Noone's demanding he play Doom 3, there are tons of less demanding games out there, many available for a tenner. OTOH if he has a Mac I pity him.

Offline stevey

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #19 on: July 05, 2005, 04:15:14 AM »
I was talk about there computers on earth not the computer they rocket to the cosmos. I just try to say not everyone can pay for a new powerful computer to play games and need to buy new one every year and solitaire dosen't count as pc game.
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Offline Dirk Temporo

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RE:Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #20 on: July 05, 2005, 06:44:10 AM »
You can get a perfectly good PC capable of playing all today's games for about $400.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #21 on: July 05, 2005, 09:59:42 AM »
Avoid Dell or crap like that, they put the money where it's not needed (CPU) and save it where it is (RAM, graphics card). Never mind most of those companies are Intel only, whether by choice or by coercion (AMD filed a suit against Intel because of that, after all). Also, don't rebuy what you have. 400-500$ should net you a gaming machine that will play everything at full detail for years to come. Sure, a next-gen console is cheaper but a next-gen console has more expensive games, fewer games (since the PC has the best backwards compatibility of all systems), is a closed platform (no running indy games) and doesn't do anything but games properly. Never mind the PC has a huge amount of freeware games and applications available. Add the convenience of NoCD cracks (no more playing disc jockey), free online and flexibility of upgrading (if you don't like the way one part behaves you can replace it, try adding HDTV output to a Gamecube).
Oh, and don't forget mods which allow you to get hundreds of hours out of a 50$ game without replaying once.

Sure, PC games tend to be a bit samey if you only look at retail shelves but if you try searching for indy games on the web you'll find more innovative games than you can shake a stick at.

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Offline Gamebasher

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RE:Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #22 on: July 05, 2005, 10:46:15 AM »
KDR11k, Thanks!

Yes, you got that complete right.

I want absolute control, and the console FPS don´t offer that. I guess my acclimatization to console shooters made me unable to properly save up for a big powerfull PC which can run more demanding games with "total control". But now that you´ve mentioned it, I will wait for the RVN (my abbreviation)/Revolution and see if they do indeed give us a better controller or simply forget about laying shooters on consoles and by a PC!
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2005, 10:04:11 PM »
Well, what kind of computer do you have? I suppose you're not browsing PGC on a WebTV or modded XBox.

Offline nemo_83

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RE:Problems with 3D Control in console games
« Reply #24 on: July 06, 2005, 07:33:05 PM »
The GameCube should have had a trackball instead of a c stick.  It should have had scroll wheels instead z buttons.  Perhaps the system would have attracted more attention if it had launched with the WaveBird.  The GameCube controller failed to stand out functionally from the competition in any way other than missing parts.

The REV controller should feature some new things; maybe gyros, haptic analog thumb sticks, face wheels.

Controllers definately need to be simplified as far as finger functions go.  The functions we have on the controller should each earn their presence by being completly unique from the next function on the controller.  Rather than have two analog sticks and two sets of four face buttons; the controller could be streamlined.  One thing of each.  An analog stick, a trackball, a face wheel, and a dpad (or face buttons, maybe six).

With a face wheel or any scroll wheel you could reload a gun by revolving the disk.  
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