Topic: EDITORIAL: Socially Acceptable

[TheYoungerPlumber]

You can discuss my editorial.  It's my first, so be gentle!

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I couldn't fit this in the editorial comfortably, but I wanted to point out that the ESA is VERY GENEROUS about what it considers gaming.  Those stats seem to include any sort of shockwave game, and if they play ONCE in the WHOLE YEAR, they have "played video games" in 2004.

[RABicle]

I jsut stopped reading when you said you were interesting in Golf. Surely you must be a slow and boring person and your editorial will only reflect that.

Seriosuly though, a good editorial. And I list video games under my hobbies on my resumé!

[KnowsNothing]

Good editorial.  It's definitley not just you, even as a teenager in an age group where video games are becoming more socially acceptable, I still cringe when I have to label myself as a gamer in front of others (of course it helps now, after I was forced to do a presentation on my anti-EA "essay").  I haven't be lucky enough to fill out a resume yet, but I know I'll probably have to judge my potential employer to determine whether or not putting down video games under hobbies is such a good idea.

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Even my dad (who once bought me a SNES with only Super Mario World in hopes of boring me out of games)

rab: golf can be exciting, and more importantly, violent.  Haven't you ever played Outlaw Golf?  Me neither, but I hear they hit their weak caddies with clubs, sounds like they have the right idea  

[Deguello]

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I couldn't fit this in the editorial comfortably, but I wanted to point out that the ESA is VERY GENEROUS about what it considers gaming. Those stats seem to include any sort of shockwave game, and if they play ONCE in the WHOLE YEAR, they have "played video games" in 2004.

That's one of the things that bothers me about the industry.  They do things like this to say that more people are playing video games than going to movies.  The continual comparison that the ESA makes between games and movies that asserts that game companies are making more money become less "shocking," "wow," and "growth industry" and more "why do they keep repeating that line?"

It is because the games industry, with a few exceptions, still feels insecure about the acceptance of games as a "new entertainment media" and constantly compares itself to more established media like films.  Did you ever wonder why Hollywood never responds back to the ESA?  Because it doesn't matter.  Becuase people will always go to movies and for a long time.  Not everybody will play videogames, and moreso will they devote a chunk fo their life to it.  And furthermore the ESA fails to mention that Movie-to-Game tie-ins are a rather large chunk of the Games market, whereas the Game-to-Movie market is the most insignificant thing to ever happen to films.  Hollywood knows that if it weren't for them, the games industry wouldn't have to numbers that they so loudly brag about in the first place.

My 2 cents.

[RABicle]

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rab: golf can be exciting, and more importantly, violent. Haven't you ever played Outlaw Golf? Me neither, but I hear they hit their weak caddies with clubs, sounds like they have the right idea

Double the Fist, fisted up golf by making it real time instead of turn based and arming a panda with a handgun to shoot players. Best game. Mephisto won.

And I love my new avatar. It's funny though, when people ask my hobbies I always say "widescreen" people stand back in awe.

[Shecky]

When I was interviewing out of college, I had the same reserve for listing video games as a "hobby."  I eventually listed it as the first item on the list.  Didn't turn out that negatively during any interviews.  Most just glossed right over it, some would bring it up and ask, "What do you mean 'video games'? Do you program them as a hobby?"  To which my response would be yes I had in the past, but that lately I was enjoying the current crop of strategy and adventure games.  Most people who went into the question, were happy with the resulting discussion.  Just be prepared to discuss it and keep it honest.  There was concern that listing it may have done some damage in the prescreening, before you even get to an interview.  That may be unfounded.  However, this was all before games like GTA, and if I were to update my resume today I would likely change "video games" to something more specific and reflective of why I'm listing it as a hobby.

[Famicom]

Fortunately for me I started learning to apply for jobs long before I ever heard of this negative stigma towards games and gamers. There were no MMORPGs and GTA3 games to make me look like a crazed maniac, so I never had any insecurities about listing video games as my main hobby. And I have never been asked about it either. And I've gotten all those jobs. And no they weren't video game related.

This was also before I got into anime as a hobby too. Now THAT'S something I'd be afraid to list.

[Karl Castaneda #2]

Great editorial, TYP. When I had to apply for my summer job (newsroom gig), I hesitated to put down that I play video games. As all things tend to do, it bit me in the ass, because if I had, I would've been writing tech columns on video games since Day 1, instead of having to weasel my way in through the Infographics department. So to put it simply, I think it's just a mild insecurity that we really shouldn't be ashamed of.

[Ian Sane]

I'm really screwed in regards to my interests.  Being a gamer is one thing.  Being a game and a pro wrestling fan is another.  Most people regard wrestling fans as inbred hicks.  In comparison gaming seems quite respectable.  Nobody says "you know it's fake, don't you" when you play games.

I don't put either of those interests on my resume.  It sucks, but why be honest about something so minor if it could cost you a job?  It's the same thing with relationships.  I might as well wait until a girl knows me well enough to make an informed opinion of my gaming interest than to blow it on the first date for a stupid reason.  Fortunately I play guitar which is a respected interest and is a legitimate interest of mine so I always have something to work with.  If you don't have something like that that's too bad though really if gaming is your only interest then even I'm a little turned off.  Not because you're a gamer but because you have only one interest.

And my parents have been down on my gaming interest as well, though not as much as my wrestling interest.  God I could start a whole editorial on THAT topic.

[nickmitch]

When there are surveys at school I always put down video games as a hobby/interest. I have other things that I do and can put down so I look less obsessed.
People are always on me about how much I play videogames in relation to school work, but it's never really been a problem. I can always not play for three weeks when there are projects and exams and such. I hate having to not play for a long period of time but I can do it if I have to.  

[vudu]

I don't really have anything to add, I just wanted to commend TYP on his excellent editorial.

[King of Twitch]

ANYTHING can be done in excess! Parents with compulsive child-gamers who point fingers solely at products fail to realize that their kid could have been just as easily distracted from schoolwork by any other number of activities

*APPLAUSE*

Games are scapegoats, that's the only way I can explain it. Maybe someday they'll be accepted as legitimate media, but look at the result of mainstream movies and music . I wouldn't wish that on anyone's hobby

[IceCold]

Great editorial TYP - you must have put a lot of thought and effort into it.

I don't put video games as a hobby on applications/surveys etc because, as mentioned, many people have negative stereotypes about video games, including the addictive nature of them, the graphic violence etc. They fail to realize that there are some gems out there that do not have anything to do with these stereotypes, and those are the ones I play. Still, they would never understand this, so I just choose to omit it.

It's more acceptable (and easier on your part) to put down something to do with literature, sports, or music. I have an interest in all three, so I am able to do this legitimately. There just aren't the negative connotations attached to these. The employer can relate to these things, as they are probably more informed about them and understand them more.

I watch pro wrestling on and off; I catch a few major PPVs here or there, and sometimes I watch free TV if there's anything good on. I watch them for the athleticism and the ability of the wrestlers. However, sometimes you see something in a show that's so f-cking stupid that you feel like you never want to watch that show again. You could flip the channel to a wrestling show and hear someone talking about bestiality sex. That really puts me off, and that gives wrestling the bad reputation that it has in the eyes of society. That's why I stick to watching matches, therefore PPVs, rather than all the other stuff they add. And yes, video gaming as a hobby looks like gold compared to wrestling, because of the even worse reputation that precedes wrestling.

[BigJim]

My experience hasn't been a social acceptance issue as much as it is a generational divide.

If I interview or talk with someone in their 40s or 50s, I wouldn't even try. It remains a guilty pleasure along with other things like wrestling. Heh. They usually don't have their finger on the pulse of pop culture. And there's no doubt that video games have become a subset of pop culture.

Talk about games with someone closer to my age, and it's usually a different story.

[gally]

For me, the fear was always about being seen as immature, in that I'd be seen as one of those people who obsessed over violence. My greater interest is for platforming, action-oriented games, cartoon-themed games moreso than realism (though I still like my Battlefield, and Silent Hill 3). But some people hear "video games" and think in terms of guns, violence, etc.

I made an effort to show my parents and grandmother innovative games like Donkey Kong Jungle Beat and Katamari Damacy, to show them that games are often light-hearted, playful and fun, unlike the violent stereotype the media loves to put on them.

Of course, the constant sound of gunfire coming from my younger brother's bedroom doesn't help the image any. Thank goodness he's open-minded as well, and also enjoys his Marios, Sonics, etc. It's just that his greater interests lean towards FPSs and MMORPGs.

The problem that I have right now is not only that "gamer" can yield images of the Grand Theft Auto series, but also that gamers tend to refer to such immature, juvenile antics as "mature", "sophisticated", and other such meaningless buzzwords to try to make themselves seem more adult, but instead have the opposite effect to the outside world, kind of like what a 12 year old who smokes would look like to an adult.

[ruby_onix]

This reminds me, I need to start writing "Obsessive Sailormoon Fanatic" on more of my things.

[Ian Sane]

"I watch pro wrestling on and off; I catch a few major PPVs here or there, and sometimes I watch free TV if there's anything good on. I watch them for the athleticism and the ability of the wrestlers. However, sometimes you see something in a show that's so f-cking stupid that you feel like you never want to watch that show again. You could flip the channel to a wrestling show and hear someone talking about bestiality sex. That really puts me off, and that gives wrestling the bad reputation that it has in the eyes of society. That's why I stick to watching matches, therefore PPVs, rather than all the other stuff they add."

That brings up a good point that relates to gaming as well.  When someone doesn't understand a form of entertainment they cannot tell between good or bad.  So if you're a fan they assume you like everything.  I don't like most of the silly skits in wrestling.  I like Flair and Steamboat wrestling their asses off for an hour.  But it doesn't matter what's on, I'm a fan so I MUST like everything.  It's the same with games to an extent.  It's assumed that you play stuff like Manhunt because it's a game and you're a gamer so you must like it.

Hell you even see that attitude in a more innocent situation.  How often have you received a terrible game from a relative as a gift?  That relative knows you're a gamer so they just grab any old game without an research because it's a game and you're a gamer so you must like it.  No one does that with music though.  It's pretty rare for someone to know you like music and then just go and buy you a random CD.  That's because everyone likes music so thus everyone knows that musical tastes are not universal.

"My experience hasn't been a social acceptance issue as much as it is a generational divide."

I think it's both.  Obviously I find older people just don't understand games because games just didn't exist when they were young.  But I find tons of people my own age have the same negative views.  If it's a generation thing then I wouldn't be concerned about telling a girl I like that I game.  I don't date woman over 40.  Anyone I date is going to be around the same age as me.  I even know people who used to game as kids that now have a negative attitude towards it.  Maybe it's because when I was a kid adults didn't game so a lot of people my age still see it as a kids hobby.  Our kids however will be raised in an era where gaming appeals to all ages so maybe then it will be different.  It might still be a generation issue but it's a lot more complicated than my Dad's parents not getting rock 'n' roll and everyone born since then getting it.

[gally]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
That brings up a good point that relates to gaming as well.  When someone doesn't understand a form of entertainment they cannot tell between good or bad.  So if you're a fan they assume you like everything.  I don't like most of the silly skits in wrestling.  I like Flair and Steamboat wrestling their asses off for an hour.  But it doesn't matter what's on, I'm a fan so I MUST like everything.  It's the same with games to an extent.  It's assumed that you play stuff like Manhunt because it's a game and you're a gamer so you must like it.

Exactly, but at the same time, a lot of people don't know what games ARE out there. If all they hear about on the news is stuff like Manhunt, they think that all video games are like Manhunt. So it's more like "you like video games? So you must like Grand Theft Auto," simply because Grand Theft Auto is well-known. It's the first thing that comes to their mind, and is their outsider's view on games.

That's why whenever I mention, or it is brought up, that I am a "gamer", I try to clarify that my tastes are actually rather diverse, and even provide specific examples (i.e. Katamari Damacy, which is as far removed from the media's portrayal of games as you can get).

[TheYoungerPlumber]

Thanks for the kind remarks.  This is a topic that has bugged me FOREVER, and it dawned on me around a week ago that it could make a great editorial.  Like many have mentioned, Wrestling is another one of those misunderstood and misrepresented hobbies.

As many have echoed, the problem is as much our FEAR as anything else.  We shouldn't have to "take a chance" when we mention we like playing video games.  I need to get out of this office and grab some food!

[Nemo4ever]

Good editorial, although at this point in my life I'm so cynical that the column doesn't inspire the same feelings it did years ago. Needless to say, I've endured more than my fair share of annoyance at people's close-minded attitudes towards videogames. I can't say I blame them. The best-selling games these days seem to be the ones that re-enforce the stereotype of violent, bloody games (GTA, Halo, etc.). Even MGS3, a game I love for its excellent story, characters, and fun boss fights, falls victim to this.

There's no real solution at this point. I really wish video game publishers would venture for more imaginative, unique games in the hopes that something would capture the public's interest and broaden people's view of video games.

Cartoons STILL haven't escaped their stigma amongst the older crowd. While listening to The Simpsons DVD commentary, they mentioned that Don Rickles flatly turned down their request to guest star on an episode. Conan O'Brien commented that he believes many old people still view cartoon as a dumb kids thing after all these years.

This problem isn't isolated to video games or cartoons either. Rap music only recently hit mainstream acceptance and a lot of people still view it as garbage. That's due to the most prominent images of rap music being violent and offensive, but someone who investigates a little will find a lot of artists with real substance outside of the crude, materialistic crap out there.

[Bloodworth]

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That brings up a good point that relates to gaming as well. When someone doesn't understand a form of entertainment they cannot tell between good or bad.

This is slightly off subject, but crap, I cannot tell you how much I hate it when people ask if I like Anime.  I like certain shows and movies, but just because a bunch of Japanese guys got together and created something does not guarantee I'll like it.  There's a complete ignorance to the breadth of that medium too.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

I'm embarassed to say that after writing this editorial, but...

Yeah, even I tend to fall into the trap of questioning people who "like Anime," not because anime is bad or anything (I like it too!), but becuase of the culture that tends to surround westerners who call themselves Otaku.  In my opinion, unlike gamers, otaku seem to go out of their way to behave as though they have superior taste--be it hatred of mainstream anime or absurdly obsessive bashing of anything dubbed.  Not everyone who falls into the anime crowd acts like this, but they do not identify themselves as otaku.  Of course, the same haughtiness could be said of gamers, who don't like most movie franchise games, and currently casual gamers don't identify themselves as gamers either.

Boy, I'm a hypocrite!  Still, I'm having trouble resolving this without unfairly generalizing when someone says "I like to watch anime."  Sure, I have friends who are really into the anime "genre" (which Dan points out is ultra-vague), and I can respect them as people, but I'll never understand how someone can call an excellent localization of an anime that isn't *exactly* like the source "bad."

[Bloodworth]

I always prefer to watch anime in the original Japanese, but if I see a dubbed show, I'm generally not going to complain unless the acting is like Baten Kaitos terrible.

[KDR_11k]

Ah, yes, the otakus... They get especially annoying when they start replacing random words in their language with japanese words that may or may not have the same meaning. Why am I supposed to know all the different japanese terms for the various clichee stories found in anime (the medium would profit from less stereotyping and more "breaking conventions")? There's a reason the language we're using is called "English". I don't throw random german words into my posts either. If you want to speak Japanese then go to some japanese online forum, there isn't exactly a shortage of them. Oh, and remember, a shower is there to be used.