Topic: Revolutionary Controller

[Mario]

I was just thinking.. after watching the Reggie interview on Gamespot and reading the Miyamoto interview at IGN, Nintendo is concerned that if they reveal their controller, Sony will copy it instantly. That makes me think it can't be something extremely radical like a VR Helmet, but an IDEA, that could be done easily, but nobody else has thought of it. Let's face it, Sony can't change the whole design of their controller and change the games in development to utilise it by it now, it's too late. Nintendo said they want Sony to have 100% completely finalised all their hardware specs and controller, before they reveal anything about their controller.

This idea Nintendo has for the Revolution controller... it intrigues me to no end.

[Ian Sane]

"That makes me think it can't be something extremely radical like a VR Helmet, but an IDEA, that could be done easily, but nobody else has thought of it. Let's face it, Sony can't change the whole design of their controller and change the games in development to utilise it by it now, it's too late."

That's true.  I just assumed that Nintendo was being insane and paranoid.  Realistically if the Rev's big secret is that it comes with a mouse then Sony could easily copy it and it would be a really great idea even if it's not that creative.  If I was Nintendo that's what MY secret would be.

[lastexit]

SNES had a mouse (Mario Paint).

What many people don't realize is that there is far more going on business-wise behind the scenes affecting the timing of such things than is apparent.  Once Sony and MS seal deals, ship development kits and most importantly, make public promises, show their console, etc, it's locked-in.  If Nintendo wants to show off something real neat tomorrow it's a good time to do so because when Sony or MS try and copy it EVERYONE WILL KNOW.  They will then be able to market from the point of view that you can get the REAL THING or a cheap knockoff thrown together at the last minute by Sony or MS.

Think about it, if Sony and MS had anything else really exciting it would've been shown during E3.  

[mantidor]

The problem is that the public seems to not care at all who got  it first, specially if its something simple and intuitive like the analog stick, and I think that the revolutionary secret is indeed somthing like that. But its a fact that if it catches on, sony will copy it anyway.

[Ian Sane]

"SNES had a mouse (Mario Paint)."

Yeah but it didn't COME with a mouse.  Think of the possibilities.  They could offer near perfect control for PC style games and thus steal one of Microsoft's key selling points.  Imagine Nintendo's take on real time strategy games or Sim City style games.  Plus it allows them much of the same flexibility of the DS touchscreen.

[Arbok]

Quote
Originally posted by: lastexit
If Nintendo wants to show off something real neat tomorrow it's a good time to do so because when Sony or MS try and copy it EVERYONE WILL KNOW.  They will then be able to market from the point of view that you can get the REAL THING or a cheap knockoff thrown together at the last minute by Sony or MS.

That's really bad logic right there, unless you actually assume that every gamer tunes in to stuff like E3 and what not, beacuse I can assure you only a small % actually do. Also, think about that, let's say Sony does steal it and releases their console before Nintendo's Revolution. The average gamer is going to think that Nintendo copied Sony if that were to happen.

[DiscoStu]

Ok I have 2 guesses about the controller.  But before I begin; one premise:  a consistent message about the controller was presented in the pre-E3 conf, the Reggie interview on GSpot, and the Reggie interview on G4 regarding the controller.  A reference each time was made regarding the importance of using the control to play NES, SNES, and N64 games (in addition to Rev games) with the same controller and that this info should give everyone a clue about the controller and it's revolutionaryness.  I thought this was odd since you can still plug a GC control in to the system.  Also some of this has been mentioned by others on this site, or at least others around here have made comments pre-E3 even that have influenced my theories.  

My ideas:
!) The control uses a touch screen of some sort, like the DS.  Obviously N has been experimenting with such tech.  The DS didn't come out of nowhere, there have to be guys working on the touch screen tech at N (I forget the division that came up with the concept but Iwata I believe worked closely with that division before the promotion).  My major problem with a touch screen displaying the controls negates the idea of pressing a button, that tactile knowledge of ones finger running over a button.  With any touch screen type system one will always have to look at it to know they are pressing the right button until they become an expert with the controls; this alienates the casual user.  So could there be some sort of system that allows the developer to aromatically recognize an area pressed on the touch screen but also makes that area an impression on the touchscreen and allows th developer to determine the amount of depression by the player

2)  The controllers are actually also portable systems.  With N's knowledge of small screens could the Rev's controllers that allow you to walk away from the system and still be playing a game.  So completely uniting the portable market with the console market.


(btw controller is an interesting word to dissect and apply to videogames, try it at your next social gathering especially if there's a bunch of engineers around)

[ThePerm]

my idea is the controller can be taken apart in various ways and modified depending on the particular games....but thats just me

[PaLaDiN]

Hedorah's right.

How many people know or care that rumble started with the N64?

[ruby_onix]

Quote
Let's face it, Sony can't change the whole design of their controller and change the games in development to utilise it by it now, it's too late.

Sony changed their PSone controller to copy Nintendo's innovations. After it was out on the market for a year. Twice.

Quote
They will then be able to market from the point of view that you can get the REAL THING or a cheap knockoff thrown together at the last minute by Sony or MS.

When Sony copied the Rumble Pak, they took a moment to refine the idea, putting two motors in instead of one. (Actually, they didn't. But it looked like they did.) Nobody cared that Nintendo was "first". They just knew they could get better quality by going with Sony.

[ezaphlix]

Come to think about it, the means of control for the NES and SNES games could very well be right in front of our noses.  Now what was it called again..........  Oh yeah!  The DS.

[Dryden]

Nintnedo's history of controller innovation:
1. D-Pad (now industry standard)
2. Start/Select buttons (now industry standard)
3. Shoulder L/R buttons (now industry standard)
4. Analog Stick (now industry standard)
5. Rumble feature (now industry standard)
6. Good Wireless (now industry standard)
7. ?  (soon to be industry standard)

Yeah, maybe they should keep it under wraps for a while.

[RABicle]

Going back to Reggie's comments that the controller ahs to be able to play all prior games, lets put togethor what we know it must include to emulate.

At a bare minumun the controller must include but not nessisarily be limited to:
6 face buttons
1 D pad
2 shoulder buttons
1 trigger
1 thumbstick
1 select button
1 start button
1 memory card slot.

So already it's more complex than the N64 pad. Thinking of the N64 pad, it's more than possible that Nintendo could opt for a 'three legged' style controller again. Other features that we can assume it will feature include a second thumbstick and a second trigger, to add more imput and make the system more port friendly. So now, with all this there still has to be a revolutionary part to it.

[nemo_83]

perhaps these slightly fresh concepts will get your gears going.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/nemo_83/ne5xy.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v695/nemo_83/ne5.jpg

Why would they package in a mouse?  It has two USB ports which opens the door for you to use any kind of controller setup you can mod up.  But who is to say Nintendo doesn't create the ultimate gaming mouse?  A mouse with traditonal pad functions would be leaps ahead of what Sony and MS are offering.  Also one in each hand.  No keyboards.  There are a lot of peripherals for PC controls.  Flight sticks, trackballs, gyration, and haptics.  What is important here is not just that Nintendo has a big idea.  What is important is that Nintendo is the one leading the pack on decisions.  If Nintendo put a glowing vibrating falice on the front of the console so would Sony and MS just to make sure they are standardized.  If Nintendo does dual flight sticks, they will try to copy that directly.  If Nintendo does gyration they will try there best to copy that.  If Nintendo just slaps a touch screen on they'll make it optional.  If Nintendo puts a trackball on their controller so will Sony and MS (but not until Nintendo does).  You see where I am going with this?  MS and Sony are not going to do anything new until Nintendo says a certain technology is the best idea.  Nintendo does not have some secret technology.  It is just they are the only ones who can think on their own.  They're the only ones with the forsite and imagination to see the potential in these technologies.  You ever wonder why Sony, MS, or Sega didn't try to compete with Nintendo's analog revolution with the N64 by making their controllers for the PS2, Xbox, and Dreamcast analog flight sticks or include simple functions like a scroll wheel at least to have something unique about their controllers?  The best idea they could come up with was to have the joysticks click.  I think Nintendo can do this.  Even if it is as simple as having a gyro in their controller, that gyro would allow players to control the game through tilting and turning the controller (no mice can do that, especially in the air) while still using dual analog control.

I personally think the feeling rumor will be the one that comes back to haunt us.  Haptics can be implemented into any number of things.  What if the analog sticks have force feedback?  What about the triggers?  There are ways to use force feedback without teathering a gamer to a desk or table.  You could hold a neutral prong/handle in one hand stabalizing the device and in the other hand you control the haptic arm attatched to another prong/handle.

[Michael8983]

At this point, I'm convinced it's going to be a motion sensitive controller.
Nintendo has already been playing around with it for years with Kirby's Tilt and Tumble, that strange Gamecube tech-demo that has appeared at a few shows, and now Warioware Twisted and the new Yoshi game.
It would also be perfect for Metroid Prime 3 which was strangely emphasized at the conference and would certainly allow for the new types of gameplay and genre Nintendo has been hinting at. Most importantly it's something that could seamlessly be added to a somewhat standard looking controller capable of playing old-style games.

[Spak-Spang]

Hmmm.  

I still wonder about Gryoscopic controls.  In some aspects it offers great freedom, but it also offers problems, like what happens if your friend pushes you because you just beat him.  Now your character falls off a cliff.  OOPS.

I seriously think that whatever it is.  The competition WON'T copy it until they know it is a good idea and that the public has embraced it.  Then they will rush to make a similar product.  

The issue for Nintendo showing anything this year is that it at least allows the competition to evaluate what Nintendo is doing and try to judge if the public will like the new controllers.  If Nintendo had demos, then basically E3 would have been market research for the competition by reading what the journalists wrote.  A year is a long enough time for Sony, and even this late in the game Microsoft to come up with a new controller.  

However, right now the mystery means Sony and Microsoft would have to invest money in market guesses as to what Nintendo is actually doing.  They probably don't feel it is worth the expenses.  Specially when they can just see what Nintendo has in a year and copy it if its good.  

But, that gives Nintendo at least a year's time of innovation.  At least a year's jump in designing games for the idea.  And that means Nintendo's second generation games with the controller will be out when Sony's and Microsoft's First generation games are.

[couchmonkey]

According to IGN's hands-on with the Revolution box, the system has to use Gamecube controllers because the new controllers won't be backwards compatible.  Now, I don't know if they heard that from Nintendo representatives or made it up in their boggled brains, but if it is true, I'm a little concerned.  Will there be any room for traditional games on this system?  Even if Nintendo allows developers to make games that use Cube controllers, will the critics and gamers pan them for not using the system's revolutionary features?

As for other companies copying Nintendo, I agree that it's a concern, but I hope Nintendo delivers something worthy of hiding, as opposed to some of the games it released this generation.

[Artimus]

Couchmonkey, if the controller can do NES->N64 then it can obviously do normal games. And IGN says 'likely' not 'that is why'. A ton of people here wanted GCN ports, and since the new controller is wireless it's a sensible thing to do. I think it's safe to assume thye're not going to try and sell GCN controllers for the Rev to play the old games.

[jasonditz]

My take is that the cube controller ports were required for functionality that backwards compatibility requires (connectivity with the GBA, Bongos). But then its interesting to see how they'll handle peripherals for NES/SNES games.

Surely there's no simple way to play Duck Hunt with the new controller. Or maybe you can aim with the gyroscope? Then it becomes like some kind of weird, retro FPS?

[Arbok]

Quote
Originally posted by: jasonditz
Surely there's no simple way to play Duck Hunt with the new controller. Or maybe you can aim with the gyroscope? Then it becomes like some kind of weird, retro FPS?

Unless Nintendo releases a light gun for the system to play Duck Hunt and all those Super Scope games, hell, I wouldn't mind... My Super Scope got trashed anyway (RIP), and it's a area that Nintendo hasn't done much in.

[slingshot]

The REV has ports for the CUBE controllers.  We read it on IGN- and it was announced.  They are under the flap- also under the flap is where you put the CUbe memory cards.  Since you can use the old controllers, you can play all the old games- because the Cube controllers have a d pad, and a and b buttons- that goes all the way back to the nes.  Cube controllers also have all additoinal buttons that ALL preceding controllers had- plus extras.  

My money is still on gyros.  NOT just for some easy control features- but I really think that NINTY has found a way to give US feedback through the gyros.  Like you r controller feeling bouyant on the water in WAVE RACE.  OR feeling the moguls under your skis in a ski race game- or when you play a skateboard game you feel the controller dip down and then rise up (breif weightlessness, and then another plummet down)  We are not just talking about tilting the controller around to emulate the analog stick- this is going to be really big.  After all- we have heard many times that playing is key here.  My faith is in the big N.  Simplification has to come from gyros, but also the type of feedback that I mentioned is possible- I know they have done it.

[Ian Sane]

"Come to think about it, the means of control for the NES and SNES games could very well be right in front of our noses. Now what was it called again.......... Oh yeah! The DS."

The DS can't play N64 games though.

"Cube controllers also have all additoinal buttons that ALL preceding controllers had- plus extras."

No they don't.  Again you can't play N64 games with a Cube pad.  You can play some of them but not all.  The N64 has six face buttons but the Cube only has four.

I think people are coming in inane conclusions about the Cube controller ports.  Do you know why Nintendo added those? Because it was a nice thing to do.  The Cube ports ensure 100% backwards compatibility.  If they didn't put them on there you couldn't play Donkey Konga or Four Swords Adventures.  It's called being user-friendly and being on the ball.  It's not evidence that the Rev controller is a worthless piece of crap that can't play traditional games.

I think the controller itself is normal and the innovative thing is either just added on to existing controller design or is something extra that's included like how the NES came with a light gun.

[Artimus]

For once Ian is the voice of sanity

[OptimusPrime]

Maybe this would cheer some people up. In the Gamespot interview with Reggie, Reggie stated that the Rev controller is so designed you can perfectly play NES, SNES, N64 and Cube games with it. So it is capable of controlling traditional gamedesign....yeaaaah!

[Pale]

The more I think about it, I really think its going to be gyroscopics like everyone has expected.  The revolutionary part will be in how they are used.

1. people can use it for basic character control.  This has been done before and isn't really that intuitive, so I don't think it will be it.

2. You could use it in place of the c-stick in many instances.  For example, looking in a game like Metroid prime.  You control with the stick, but the way you tilt the controller decides where you are looking.  I think this could be a cool bonus feature.

3. The key feature (much like the mouse idea) is you use as you would a touch screen.  I offer this link as an example. http://www.gyration.com/ultragt.htm  Using a system like that, people could play games like RTS with a really inuitive feel.  Make the controller break in half (with the gyration part coming off) and it could make for really comfortable, laid back, one handed gaming.  Perfect for turn based rpgs and strategy games, as well puzzlers and 'non-games' that will help pull in the non gamer.


If Sony or MS hear that Nintendo is putting a gyroscope into their controllers, they could throw one in really quickly.... Even if it isn't as sophisticated a plan as Nintendo's, it would still take the uniquness away from Nintendo's console.

How much you want to bet I (and the many others with a similar idea) am right.