Author Topic: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million  (Read 17584 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

  • Animal Crossing Hustler
  • Score: 410
    • View Profile
No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« on: March 26, 2005, 12:27:47 PM »
http://www.japantoday.com/e/?content=news&cat=3&id=332037
Quote

Sony ordered to pay $90.7 mil. in patent infringement suit

Saturday, March 26, 2005 at 15:37 JST
LOS ANGELES — The U.S. District Court in Oakland, California, has ordered Sony Computer Entertainment Inc. and its U.S. unit to pay $90.7 million in damages to Immersion Corp. for patent infringement over controllers used with PlayStation game consoles.

In the ruling handed down Thursday, the federal court also ordered Sony Computer Entertainment and Sony Entertainment America Inc. to stop selling the PlayStation and PlayStation 2 game consoles using Dualshock controllers as well as more than 40 game software products. (Kyodo News)


This has gotta hurt SONY's already bleeding pockets(Cell R&D and PSP losses per unit/warranties)
I don't know why they didn't just liscense the technology like Logitech & MS, or just implement it differently like Nintendo(who also has a patent on their implementation).

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #1 on: March 26, 2005, 12:31:51 PM »
WHAT THE HELL!?  This is just downright dirty, considering Immersion waited this freaking long to complain about it...I HATE companies that patent something just for money...

So how is Ninty getting out of getting sued?
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline BlackNMild2k1

  • Animal Crossing Hustler
  • Score: 410
    • View Profile
RE:No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #2 on: March 26, 2005, 12:35:26 PM »
I just edited my first post but I post it again.

Immersion didn't patent the technology, just the implementation of the technology.

Nintendo implemented differently and then patented it.

Logitech & Microsoft liscense the implementation of the technology from Immersion, Sony forgot to look both way b4 crossing the road & now they got hit by a truck!!

Offline Bill Aurion

  • NWR Forum Loli
  • Score: 34
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #3 on: March 26, 2005, 01:30:14 PM »
Oh, I see now...Well if it's Sony's own fault, then tough luck for them...
~Former Resident Zelda Aficionado and Nintendo Fan~

Offline Galford

  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE:No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2005, 01:51:26 PM »
Why does this case smell like Eolas vs MS?
Wii Code - 8679 5256 1008 2077

Offline Talon

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2005, 04:21:01 PM »
Quote

WHAT THE HELL!? This is just downright dirty, considering Immersion waited this freaking long to complain about it...I HATE companies that patent something just for money...


You'll probably find that this court case has been going on for quite sometime and the ruling has only just happened now. I wouldnt be suprised if SONY has dragged out this in the courts for years.  
Whats at the end?
Whats at the end?
Whats at the end of Satan's rainbow?

Offline Djunknown

  • HEY! HEY! LISTEN!
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE:No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2005, 04:52:23 PM »
So what, they're going to have to stop selling Playstations without controllers? Without dual shock, that makes the PSone and PS2 unplayable.  Are they going to make all gaming retail outlets freeze their stock?

Man, this as shocking as when Greece banned videogames to curb gambling. No doubt, Sony's going to appeal, or at least settle.

If the descion holds up, I can imagine a scenario where some dude behind a game shop with a trench coat saying: "Psst.... I got PS2 dual shocks man. 50 dollars bro, they don't even make 'em like this anymore..."

Not only that, their banning 40 titles? Question is, which titles, and how does this fit with the lawsuit?
Ma ma sa, ma ma coo sa
Ma ma se, ma ma sa,
Ma ma coo sa

Offline BlackNMild2k1

  • Animal Crossing Hustler
  • Score: 410
    • View Profile
RE:No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2005, 05:11:11 PM »
I was curious about which games too, my guess is they are games designed to take advantage of the Dual Shockness(tm) of the controllers, but that still doesn't explain how it would have anything to do with the lawsuit, considering that its just software.

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2005, 10:17:24 PM »
There is only one word that can describe my feelings: PWNED!!!

Nintendo stays unaffected by this since they were the first to invent, implement and patent this stuff. Immersion's patents explicitely reference Nintendo's patents and point out the differences.

Offline Don'tHate742

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2005, 11:56:57 PM »
Oh my god!

I don't know wether to laugh or to cry!

This is possibly the worst news for Sony....well ever. What does this mean for their PS3? Will the controller look totally different from what we have today? If it will, that's a big bummer again. Mostly everyone I know prefers the PS2 controller to any other controller out there. I, myself, like the Cube controller for it's comfortability, but the PS2 has functionality.

Again, too bad so sad.
"lol in my language that means poo" - Stevey

"WTF is your languange" - Vudu

Offline ruby_onix

  • Obsessive Sailormoon Fanatic
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2005, 12:27:34 AM »
This won't really affect Sony that much. They're filing another appeal (afaik, this isn't the first go around), and they bawled to the judge, saying that if they couldn't make their consoles with controllers while this was still in court, they'd lose billions of dollars.

So this ruling is "on hold" while Sony appeals it. By the time Sony runs out of appeals, they will have discarded their Dual Shock roots (which they've already said they're doing with the PS3). It won't matter that they will eventually be ordered to stop making Dual Shocks. The only consequence is that their fine will keep increasing.

As-is, Sony has built up $60 billion on their credit line lately. Because of this, it will be $60.09 billion. Sony has bigger problems than just this ruling.


As for why this isn't affecting Nintendo, here's a basic history lesson. Feel free to correct me anywhere I'm off.

Shortly before the N64's launch, word got out that it was going to have "analog". People "in the know" said it couldn't be done. Not yet. Maybe in a few years. It just couldn't be true. But it was true, and it kicked butt.

The PlayStation didn't have analog. Not wanting to be left behind, Sony said "Oh %#$". Threw out their old controller, and tried to one-up Nintendo with their new "Dual Analog" controller (it was only available breifly in Japan).

Then Nintendo was seen frequently talking to Immersion. And was devilishly grinning, pointing at the expansion slot in their controller. Immersion was making "force feedback" devices. They made large joysticks that had complex mechanisms linked to the stick, which could let you do wonderous things, like let you feel what it's like to stir a bucket of paint. They also cost many thousands of dollars. People in the know said "*$@% no. No #&$@ way. I don't care what miracles Nintendo has pulled off, with their '$200 SGI Workstation' and 'analog controls' and all that jazz, there is no freaking way they're putting force feedback into a videogame console. It's just not possible."

Then Nintendo unveiled (and patented) the Rumble Pak. A motor with messed up balance.

The industry started blurting out a mixture of "WTF! That's not REAL force feedback! Ha ha ha! I knew it! I knew I wasn't wrong!" and "That's so simple. Why didn't anyone think of this before."

Immersion apparently said "WTF? It's so simple. And it was right under our noses. We were looking in the wrong direction." Immersion then apparently grabbed all the "old junk" laying around their office and ran to the Patent Office.

Apparently, Nintendo holds the patent on force feedback, by way of an unbalanced motor. Immersion holds the patent on a balanced motor spinning an unbalanced weight. Nintendo was apparently happy to let Immersion have that patent, since they were the ones who unintentionally gave Nintendo the idea for it in the first place, and Immersion began licencing out their brand of rumble technology.

Sony saw Nintendo's Rumble Pak unveiling, and said "Oh %#$. Our controller isn't expandable. We don't have force feedback, or rumble, or whatever you want to call it. We're screwed again. Quick, throw out that Dual Analog before anyone else buys it, and redesign the controller again."

Sony looked at the Rumble Pak and saw that they could seperate the weight from the motor, thus getting around Nintendo's patent. They launched the "Dual Shock" and tried to patent it. The Patent Office said "Bzzzzt! Patent denied! That technology already belongs to Immersion". Sony shrugged, and strolled off, whistling nonchalantly.

When Immersion noticed that Sony's Dual Shock was unpatented, and was using their technology, they started suing Sony.

Microsoft walked blindly into the situation, assuming that it was just "the thing to do" when making a console, but when Immersion called them on it, they apologized and settled out-of-court.  
Poor people should eat wheat!
I'm about to go punk up some 3rd parties so they don't release games on other hardware, ciao!
- Ken Kutaragi

Offline Don'tHate742

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #11 on: March 27, 2005, 02:00:10 AM »
Wow....history made easy.
"lol in my language that means poo" - Stevey

"WTF is your languange" - Vudu

Offline Renny

  • Satin
    666
  • Score: 1
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #12 on: March 27, 2005, 05:56:22 AM »
So what makes Immersion's or Nintendo's patent unique from other things which vibrate? It's all the same principle, right? Is it simply because of its implementation in entertainment? ...Interactive entertainment. ...Electronic, interactive entertainment.
"... i only see pS2s at the halfway house so its those crazy druggies playing them." - animecyberrat

Offline Robotor

  • The Robot Knight
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #13 on: March 27, 2005, 08:45:42 AM »
So sony just completly disregarded the fact that the Dual Shock controller was breaking laws?  Man that's just terrible.  I'm starting to belive Sony has bigger pockets than microsoft, what with all these fines and losses I hear of.  Just disregarding a law, and knowing very well that they will get fined, but still doing it.  That's crazy.

The contorller history is funny to me.  Sony tries to one up Nintendo by adding another stick.  Can you see the executives going over that one, "TWO STICK WILL BE THE WINNAR!"  It's become standard though, so I guess it was a good idea in it's own right.
It may be simple, but it ain't easy.

Offline Grant10k

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE:No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #14 on: March 27, 2005, 09:33:23 AM »
Quote

Originally posted by: Renny
So what makes Immersion's or Nintendo's patent unique from other things which vibrate? It's all the same principle, right? Is it simply because of its implementation in entertainment? ...Interactive entertainment. ...Electronic, interactive entertainment.


Nintendo patented an unbalanced motor, the inside of the moter has more weight on one side than the other, Immersion patented a balanced motor, but with an unbalanced weight on it. The diffrence is, Nintendo made their own special moters, and Immersion used regular moters with extra stuff on them.

If you've ever opened a dual shock controller, as i have (because it was broken, because it isn't very well built) then their controllers have a little half moon shaped weight on the top of a regular motor, same as Microsoft's controller (i opened that one too, same reason but to a lesser extent) they do the same thing. Microsoft probably opened both controller and rumble pak and realized that if they copy sony, it would cost them less money. they wouln't have to make specialized motors, just existing ones with half moon weights on them.

EDIT: oh, do you mean against other things like massagers and stuff? Probably because they don't care. You can only sue for the amount of money that you would have lost had the infrenging (sp) companey not infrenged (sp). console controller sales effect massage sales in no way, shape, or form. So massagers loose zero dollars, so there is no reason to sue.
 Without data, you're just another schmuck with an opinion.
     -Chris Anderson, TEC speaker

Offline ruby_onix

  • Obsessive Sailormoon Fanatic
  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #15 on: March 27, 2005, 09:54:12 AM »
Quote

So what makes Immersion's or Nintendo's patent unique from other things which vibrate? It's all the same principle, right? Is it simply because of its implementation in entertainment?

Yes, near as I can figure. They both patented the idea of using an interactive videogame's input device to output a tactile "force feedback" sensation, by way of... (and then Nintendo and Immersion differ).


I think that Sony's "Dual Analog" was a "gimmick" feature, but when they added the rumble times two, they realized that they could make one rumble weak and one rumble strong (they both use the same kind of basic motor, but one of them has a half-moon weight that's bigger than the other), and they really hit upon something there, because it worked better, and had more depth and control.

The gimmick led to a controller revolution.


Edit:
Quote

So sony just completly disregarded the fact that the Dual Shock controller was breaking laws? Man that's just terrible.

Well, I may have exaggerated Sony's bad faith.

Looking at my grey "PSX" Dual Shock and my white "PSone" Dual Shock, the white one has patent numbers written on the back of it (but probably not one that covers the rumble). The grey one says nothing about patents. I'm sure if I dug up my old PlayStation box (it's buried and I'm too lazy), the interior of the instructions would be plastered with the term "Patent Pending". It means that Sony applied for a patent, but they're waiting to hear back about it.

By the time Sony's attempt to patent their non-Nintendo style of rumble was shot down, the Dual Shock was probably in more homes than their basic non-analog controller was. It would have been suicide to pull it from the market.

The question is, why didn't they just settle with Immersion? I'm guessing they either thought they could win somehow, or they thought that if they dragged it out long enough it wouldn't matter anymore.
Poor people should eat wheat!
I'm about to go punk up some 3rd parties so they don't release games on other hardware, ciao!
- Ken Kutaragi

Offline Don'tHate742

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #16 on: March 27, 2005, 10:25:40 AM »
I don't think two analog sticks wasn't forseen. If you've ever played Golden Eye 64 and Perfect Dark, then you'd know that you use the C-buttons basically as you would a D-pad. Instead, you use it for strafing and looking up and down. So, Sony just replaced the "D-pad" of buttons with an analog stick. Nintedo did too, just look at the C-stick for christ sake......it screams exactly what I mentioned.  
"lol in my language that means poo" - Stevey

"WTF is your languange" - Vudu

Offline BlackNMild2k1

  • Animal Crossing Hustler
  • Score: 410
    • View Profile
RE:No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #17 on: March 27, 2005, 11:55:05 PM »
UPDATE:
Quote

Japan Today reports that in addition to a hefty, $90.7-million fine for damages, Sony Computer Entertainment may be forbidden from manufacturing, using, selling or importing into the United States any of their products that include computer controlled vibrating motors because those products infringe on patents held by Immersion Corp. The products in question:

Playstation consoles, Dualshock controllers, and those games found by the jury to infringe…. A Bug’s Life; Amplitude; Ape Escape; Atlantis: The Lost Empire; Bloody Roar 2; Cool Boarders 3; Cool Boarders 4; Cool Boarders 2001; Crash Bash; Crash Team Racing; Drakan: The Ancients’ Gate; Emperor’s New Groove; Extermination; FantaVision; Final Fantasy X; Formula One 2001; The Getaway; Gran Turismo; Gran Turismo 2; Gran Turismo 3; Grand Theft Auto: Vice City; Grand Theft Auto 3; Grind Session; ICO; Jak & Daxter; Kinetica; Kingdom Hearts; Legend of the Dragoon; The Mark of Kri; Medal of Honor Frontline; Medievil 2; Metal Gear Solid 2; Monster’s, Inc.; Sly Cooper and the Thievius Racoonus; SOCOM Navy Seals; Speed Punks; Spyro: Ripto’s Rage; Spyro: Year of the Dragon; Stuart Little 2; Syphon Filter 2; Syphon Filter 3; Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater 3; Twisted Metal: Black; Twisted Metal 4; Twisted Metal: Small Brawl; Treasure Planet; and War of the Monsters
There are alot of sequels in the list, but why not all of the sequles?
ie. GT 1-3 but why not 4?
ie. GTA 3 & VC but why not SA
and didn't Amplitude have a sequel?? why isn't that on the list?
Final Fantasy X but not VII-IX or XI
Tony Hawk 3 but not THUG 1 or 2?
only one game from the MoH series?

Well anyway this list just seems kinda random, can anybody make a connection as to why these games and what they have to do with the patent that all others games don't?

edit: I think I just counted 47 games on the list, but I could be wrong

Offline oohhboy

  • Forum Friend or Foe?
  • Score: 38
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #18 on: March 28, 2005, 03:48:15 AM »
Probaly because the claim was filed back in 2001 - 2002. Only thoses games existed back then.

To introduce the games that have been produced since then would drag on the case indifinately.

The reason for the baning is that the products are illegel in the sense that they aren't lisensed and considering that a lisence has not been granted seeing that Sony is not interested in even applying this is the only legel consequnce for not having the said lisence.

The damages Sony  has been ordered to pay is for the lisecning fees Immersion would have recived from Sony for the games published up to filing. Immersion would probaly continue the sue after the current order has been enforced for the games pubished since then.

Sony is lucky that the legel system moves slower than game development or else virtually all PS2/PS1 games and dual shocks would have to be pulled from stores everywhere. Ps2 games would be unpublishable unless Rumble feature was removed and console sales hit Zero since you can get cotrollers for them.

I am guessing Immersion won't settle for what they got right now. They have a excellent case and this order is just for the games since filing. Immersion needs speed right now for maximum leverage. The moment Immersion can get it enforced they can take them to the cleaners. 90 Million would look like chicken feed.

Although if Sony does stall long enough for another solution, Immersion would still get 90 Million and probaly more from games produced so far.
I'm Lacus. I'm fine as Lacus!
Pffh. Toilet paper? What do you think cats are for?

Offline Pale

  • Staff Layton Hat Thief
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
    • PaleHour
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #19 on: March 28, 2005, 04:11:51 AM »
That list seems to just be a list of Greatest Hits games.....

This is all too weird.
:: I was an active staffer forever ago, or was it yesterday. Time is an anomaly. Father of two boys.
---------------------
:: Grouvee :: Instagram

Offline nitsu niflheim

  • Eye-Candy Andy
  • Score: 5
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #20 on: March 28, 2005, 09:55:20 AM »
Sony still has to pay a licensing fee to Immersion for the duration of the stay, as ordered by the court.  And Microsoft settled the case in 2003 for $26 million and got a nice 10% stake in Immersion too, but Sony left it up to the courts.
Currently Reading:  Odd Apocalypse ~ Dean Koontz
Currently Watching:  ?

Offline nemo_83

  • Dream Master
  • Score: -1
    • View Profile
RE:No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #21 on: March 28, 2005, 03:00:42 PM »
Is that the same company as http://www.t-immersion.com/?

This may have something to do with next generation controllers.  This court decision surly will have some affect on Sony's plans.  
Life is like a hurricane-- here in Duckburg

Offline Shorty McNostril

  • Blue text is gone :(
  • Score: 4
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #22 on: March 28, 2005, 08:41:30 PM »
Is this the U.S. only?? Or everywhere??

Offline KDR_11k

  • boring person
  • Score: 28
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #23 on: March 28, 2005, 09:17:20 PM »
It's US based so other countries can theorewtically ignore it but the WIPO will try to enforce it. Usually the only country free to ignore the WIPO is the US.

Offline Don'tHate742

  • Score: 0
    • View Profile
RE: No More Dual Shock - SONY fined $90.7 million
« Reply #24 on: March 28, 2005, 11:23:56 PM »
hahaha isn't that ironic.
"lol in my language that means poo" - Stevey

"WTF is your languange" - Vudu