Topic: PSP vs. DS ... Final Verdict (G4)

[Bloodworth]

You see Rick, I simply don't have this awareness of "drawing a line" that you bring up.  It's just a different control mechanism to me, and like others have said, it seems to be extremely easy for non-gamers (people who I've lived with and were never interested in games) to pick up and start playing for hours.  

What I do hate the fast action rubbing that Wario Ware and Feel the Magic have you do, but you know what, I hate having to tap a button as fast as I can too.   That kind of thing has never been fun to me.

I think what it comes down to is that the current line up is still showing its experimental roots.  Developers are just learning how to use touch control, and the first batch of games feels like an introduction for gamers as well.  (Wario Ware is notoriously bad in this respect, since each character's games are like lessons focusing on a specific kind of motion. -- I do like the game Deg. )  Yoshi takes a step away from that, and gives us something new.  Kirby is supposedly another step.  By the time the holidays come around, I think the games will have the depth some of us are missing.

[Aussie Ben PGC]

Quote
Originally posted by: ruby_onixFortunately, nobody says that every DS game has to be innovative. They don't need to use every feature. Just the ones that improve the experience they want to deliver. Unfortunately, most people (developers included) don't seem to understand that.

Really?  From what I've heard, certain publishers are pushing developers to make sure that some titles use ALL the features of the DS for their game.  And as a result, you get stuff shoehorned into an existing game design that shouldn't be there.

But that's just what I've heard.  You know how all that Internet gossip goes.  It's like Chinese Whispers exploded into an infinite amount of people.

[ruby_onix]

Yeah, I should've said publishers in the "most people don't seem to understand that" part. I tend to forget about them, and the seemingly-invisible power they hold over how things get done.

Real creativity and "inspired design" doesn't just show up when your master orders you to produce it. Developers need freedom to create. But what I've heard for years (and tend to forget) is that most of the videogame industry doesn't have that kind of luxury.

Does this mean that the DS is particularly vulnerable to to an ailment that the industry has largely been trying to conceal? One that Yamauchi/Iwata has probably said on more than one occasion will doom them all, and that the DS was designed to alleviate?  

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Wow, the DS has been out for like 4 months and has had great sales, and the really good games are just starting to come out, while the PSP has had pathetic software sales and average hardware sales and G4 is acting like its won...wow, now I understand how Bush won the election.  

[Renny]

We's be ig'nant in America. :¬[

[Bloodworth]

Please don't throw political jabs in here.  We don't want to ruin threads with a flame war if someone takes the bait.

[PJ gamer10]

Those numbers are only based on the Japanese numbers. Even now the PSP is seeling at almost a 2 to 1 ratio. Im not supporting the PSP right now because I do have a DS, but it's obvious that the PSP is really a strong piece of hardware. I think it is a good device for the casual person. For about $350 (because youll need the 1 gig mem. stick) you could get the same deal as an ipod but you will also be getting a movie player and a ps2 quality game player. The PSP does have some pretty good games. Lumines, Mercury, Untold and Wipeout are all pretty interesting. I did have the chance to try out Lumines and Wipeout and both were real fun to play.

What Sony has done with the PSP was expanded the market of handheld users. Maybe the 35 year old traveler doesn't want to play Yoshi or Wario but prefers to play something like Twisted Metal or maybe a sport title that looks just like their home console. With the PSP they could do that as well as listen to music or watch movies that they can transfer from their computer. These are qualities that I think the American audience wants in their handheld machines. It really is an all purpose multi-media machine.

Personally, I'm not going to get a PSP just yet because its a little too expensive for just one game,(Lumines) but it doesn't mean that I won't look into getting it in the future. I have no doubt it'll have great games to play and when that time comes I'll get one.  

[Ian Sane]

"it seems to be extremely easy for non-gamers (people who I've lived with and were never interested in games) to pick up and start playing for hours."

This is brought up a lot and while it certainly suggests that the DS is being well received in a new market it doesn't prove to me anything about the system's quality.  What do I care what your dad or girlfriend who don't normally play games thinks of the DS?  When someone is unfamiliar with games the sheer concept of playing a videogame is fun.  Just look at the casual gamers that Sony introduced to the market.  A lot of us complain about when they buy Madden every year and buy junk like Enter the Matrix.  Well they don't have the same level of interest that we do and don't know or care that there may be better games available.

It's the same way with the DS.  Your mom might not know or care that there are better games than a stylus focused minigame with half an hour of content.  But I KNOW there's better and I, as an experienced gamer, want something more on par with the GBA's best games.  The DS is doing a great job of pleasing this expanded market that Nintendo wants to attract but it's doing a lousy job of releasing games targetted at people who have owned their other systems.  Sony on the other hand has done a near perfect job of securing a lineup that appeals to Playstation owners.  The PSP is clearly for PS1 and PS2 fans.  The DS is not clearly for Nintendo fans.  Some Nintendo fans will like it but it so far looks like it's designed for a different group.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Quote
Originally posted by: PJ gamer10
Those numbers are only based on the Japanese numbers. Even now the PSP is seeling at almost a 2 to 1 ratio. .

Of course its only Japanese numbers the PSP hasn't been released anywhere else yet, it comes out tonight in the US and we don't have US numbers yet.

Also the software tie-in ratio is less probably than 2 to 1.
 

[Myxtika1 Azn]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Sony on the other hand has done a near perfect job of securing a lineup that appeals to Playstation owners.  The PSP is clearly for PS1 and PS2 fans.  The DS is not clearly for Nintendo fans.  Some Nintendo fans will like it but it so far looks like it's designed for a different group.

Are you freaking serious? How is the DS designed for a 'different' group?  The DS is a hardware with a touch screen that's designed to play games.  That's it. That's all it's designed for.  If you were talking about games then I can see your point, but you're not.  You're basing your statements on the current line-up of games when you and everybody else here knows that more and better games will be coming out soon.  The new Mario, Pokemon, Castlevania games are not for Nintendo fans?  What about the new Mario Kart that will be out this year?

Yeah, so uh, why is the DS not clearly for Nintendo fans?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

I think he's referring to the current crop of games and games like Nintendogs and electroplankton.

Personally I'm glad ninty is branching out, variety is the spice of life.

[Savior]

Yeah, so uh, why is the DS not clearly for Nintendo fans?

elektroplankton/Nintendogs/the Nintendo Educational games...

Iwata has said they want to get non gamers in because the touchscreen makes games simpler...

and to a certain extenct its true. Ive seen many non gamers ask me about the DS and try it out. But making games too simple.. yoshi touch and go for example makes it a tweener

[Myxtika1 Azn]

Avinash: He's talking about the system itself, not the games.

Savior: Pherhaps I'm reading it as "clearly not" and not "not clearly"  Still, the DS itself is designed to execute a program, be it a game or a dictionary.  I don't see why that makes it more of a system for non-gamers than Nintendo fans.

And for the people who say that it's main attraction is for non-gamers and not for Nintendo fans, I ask you this.  Why was the DS so hard to find within weeks of it's US release?  You're not suggesting that non-Nintendo (ie. moms, dads, old Aunt Gretta, people who don't normally play games) fans were running out to buy a DS, are you?  How many units have been sold now? A million? More? Has that many non-Nintendo fans bought a DS because they're non-Nintendo fans? Hell, I'm willing to bet that they  didn't even know what the hell a DS is until somebody who IS a Nintendo fan bought one and SHOWED them what it is.

Not for Nintendo fans? My ass....

[Flames_of_chaos]

Well Ian so why do you want Nintendo to cater to only the Nintendo fans why not everybody? The thing is a company would want to magically expand its share to uncharted territories and succeed or in Nintendo's case the people who thinks games are complex or "casual gamers". Basically Nintendo is trying to do the kill 2 birds with 1 stone approach by basically saying sure you will see Mario,Zelda,Metroid and all of your favorites and on top of that new franchises that would virtually appeal to everyone.

A good example would be Jam with the Band Bros.(or whatever it would be called) It can appeal to gamers who would want to re-create one of their favorite video game scores or to a musician who likes creating music or just anybody who would want to make music seriously or more for fun and have a blast with it.

Another great example is Nintendogs, people like dogs right? And tomagatchi's were extremely popular (with some resurgence currently) right? so you basically can play with your virtual pet everywhere you go and with a engaging experiance like letting you play frisbee or ball with the dog, petting it or saying like good boy or whatever and get feedback like you would get from a normal dog when you praise it or scold it.

Sure Nintendo is also making weird ones like electroplankton or that educational game, Nintendo is just trying new things and as I remember Ian always b*tched that Nintendo isn't trying new things and now your b*tching that Nintendo is trying new things wow make up your mind.

[couchmonkey]

Holy hot topic, Batman!

All I have to say is a lot of people are taking an extremely narrow view of the DS.  Looking to the rest of this year there are many games coming out which will be deeper and better than what we've seen so far.  Yes, I agree that a lot of the software released to this point is not offering a ton of variety or innovation (although I think Yoshi's Touch N Go may be the exception...I'll decide on that after I actually play it).

I'm now going to admit that, yes, there may not be any more to the touch screen than a gimmick.  To that I say, "So what?"  If DS has a better lineup of games than PSP in December but only one or two of them use the touch screen well, does that mean the PSP is better?  Unfortunately, a lot of people are judging DS software on how well the new features are used, and while that is fair to a degree, I don't think it's fair when comparing the DS to other systems.  As far as I'm concerned if Nintendo never used the touch screen again but provided a better game experience than PSP, it would be the superior system.  The touchscreen is just another option.  Unfortunately we're at a very early stage in both systems' lifespans and until a year or so has gone by, I guess people will continue to judge them on hardware rather than the pure quality of the games.

[Ian Sane]

"Well Ian so why do you want Nintendo to cater to only the Nintendo fans why not everybody?"

I don't have a problem with them catering to a wider market.  In fact I've wanted them to do that.  I want them to expand into genres they don't normally make games for and target more demographics than just "family friendly that adults can like too if they're open-minded".  I want more variety.  But I don't feel the DS is providing that.  So far it looks like Nintendo has changed their market instead of widening it.  To me it seems with the DS that non-gamers are the target market.  Now it's early but with Nintendo's constant talking about "attracting new types of gamers" and stuff like that combined with a DS lineup that is nearly entirely quirky short gimmick games and has a lot more quirky titles on the way than traditional ones it's looking like Nintendo isn't focusing on experienced gamers anymore.

I've wanted Nintendo to expand their focus for a long time but I have never wanted them to abandon hardcore gamers in favour of casuals.  That's what they're doing with the DS.  "I wish Nintendo released more RPGs and mature games" is a whole lot different than "I wish Nintendo made gimmick games targeted at non-gamers."  I want them to provide similiar variety to what they did with the NES and SNES.  The lack of options was the problem with the N64 and Gamecube.  Releasing games for non-gamers does NOT fix this problem.  I want improvement not just something different.  

[SgtShiversBen]

Could it be that many Nintendo is widening the audience now in the beginning rather than later on?  It could be possible that they're trying to get all the non-gaming people into playing games so that way when they do release Metroid or something later on, it'll be a huge hit.  I could imagine all the people that wouldn't even know about Four Swords if it was just a dedicated gaming machine that had hardcore gaming action right now.  But if a non gamer, say a soccer mom, had one and saw her kid having a blast playing Four Swords DS, and upon knowing that she had a blast with Yoshi Touch and Go which her son did too, she might think about getting it so they can compete.  It's something I thought would also be a good plan, but it just might be hot air.  Like that damn Answer Now and get a free iPod ad on the top.

[RickPowers]

"Are you freaking serious? How is the DS designed for a 'different' group?"

Because Nintendo SAID SO.  The DS is aimed at the casual gamer.  Period.  Like it, don't like it, you can't argue the fact that Nintendo has designed and marketed the DS thusly.  The SOFTWARE, on the other hand, may or may not be designed and marketed that way.  There will be some games designed to cater to Nintendo's fans, but I get the distinct impression that many of those games will be intentionally spaced out compared to the casual gamer shovelware that we're seeing now like Pokemon Dash and other such titles.

Deg ... I didn't mean that you are a casual gamer because you like Wario Ware.  I'm not saying Wario Ware is a bad game.  I'm just saying that the game is not fundamentally different than any of the other DS games at this point.  The DS has pretty much created a new genre: Drawing Mini-Game.  Simplistic, accessible games, but the problem I'm seeing is that while the graphics change, the gameplay is identical.  Those are perfect to attract new gamers (non-gamers), but that's not to say that others can't enjoy them either.  I just don't see how those games are supposed to entertain ME ... but I think that might be the point: They aren't supposed to entertain ME.

I will say this.  Nintendo's games are getting below average reviews, but the criteria hasn't been adjusted for who the audience is.  I have to wonder how that might end up affecting sales.

(FYI: I got to see my PSP today ... but they still couldn't sell it to me.  I've got Wipeout and Lumines reserved, so I should be able to do a head-to-head here shortly.)

[Deguello]

"I'm just saying that the game is not fundamentally different than any of the other DS games at this point. "

I'd say it is fundamentally different from Super Mario 64 DS and Rayman, how 'bout you?

"The DS has pretty much created a new genre: Drawing Mini-Game."

That's like saying the NES created the D-pad Mini-Game.  Or Wario Ware  made the A button Minigame.

"I will say this. Nintendo's games are getting below average reviews, but the criteria hasn't been adjusted for who the audience is."

I gave up on reviews a long time ago.  When I see crap like Game Informer lowering a score because it won't appeal to the casual player or Atari bribes and MS dictating what can be said in a review, I wonder if reviews are doing the reader any service other than to be a long advertisement or a petty rant.

[RickPowers]

"I'd say it is fundamentally different from Super Mario 64 DS and Rayman, how 'bout you?"

You're going to compare Wario Ware to two different ported games, one of which is an atrociously awful conversion?  OK.    Let me clarify, WW:T is not fundamentally different than the other games originally developed for the DS at this point.  

"That's like saying the NES created the D-pad Mini-Game. Or Wario Ware made the A button Minigame."

That's a bad analogy as far as the NES is concerned, but the Wario Ware part is actually right on the money.  Wario Ware is very recent, and was that weird, quirky, "breath of fresh air" on the GBA.  Now most of the games on the DS are practically identical.  That's not a good sign.  Developers are taking cues from Nintendo, and Nintendo is giving them all the wrong cues.  Wario Ware worked when it was all there was, but I have a terrifying suspicion that it is THE game that Nintendo was thinking of when they came up with this "casual gamer" angle.

As for the NES, it didn't create the D-Pad mini-game ... it redefined precision control in videogames PERIOD.  

[Aussie Ben PGC]

It's at this point that I'll be finnicky and say that the D-Pad was seen on the Donkey Kong Game & Watch in 1982.  The Famicom came out in Japan in 1983.

[Deguello]

"You're going to compare Wario Ware to two different ported games, one of which is an atrociously awful conversion? OK.  Let me clarify, WW:T is not fundamentally different than the other games originally developed for the DS at this point. "

Yes, I am.  You never said the games had to be good.  That's the problem with blanket statements.  As for the clarification, and I really think this is a problem with complaining about the DS's library at this point.  It's like you are pointing at some grass ten feet ahead of my lawnmower telling me I missed a spot.  You know this library problem will get solved in the future, in the very near future even.

"As for the NES, it didn't create the D-Pad mini-game ... it redefined precision control in videogames PERIOD. "

How much more precise can you get when you are actually moving things on the screen yourself?

"Developers are taking cues from Nintendo, and Nintendo is giving them all the wrong cues"

At least they HAVE dveeloper support this time.  You are looking a gift horse in the ass here.  And I think Sony is giving developers far worse cues with this "click and drag" port attitude I see from most games on the PSP.  And judging from future games, I'd say you don't have to worry about every game being like Wario Ware.  I don't see much in the PSP's future of being much more than ports.

By the way, I am seriously gonna motion for the word "gimmicky" to become and auto-edit.  I keep seeing in used with negative connotation when all of it's definitions are positive.

[KnowsNothing]

Quote
By the way, I am seriously gonna motion for the word "gimmicky" to become and auto-edit. I keep seeing in used with negative connotation when all of it's definitions are positive.

Even though I'm pro-ban-gimmick, the word CAN be used in a negative manner (while still being used correctly).  "A device employed to cheat, deceive, or trick..." - Dictionary.com.  It's mostly supposed to be used in a positive manner, though.  Other defintions include "an innovative gadget" and "a significant feature that is obscured, misrepresented, or not readily evident."  Think "innovative feature" is a dandy substitute for gimmick, even though the word technically fits the the DS quite well :thumbsup:  

[Myxtika1 Azn]

Quote
Originally posted by: RickPowers
"Are you freaking serious? How is the DS designed for a 'different' group?"

Because Nintendo SAID SO.  The DS is aimed at the casual gamer.  Period.  Like it, don't like it, you can't argue the fact that Nintendo has designed and marketed the DS thusly.

Is that a fact? Because it sounds like utter BS to me.  Where and when did Nintendo say so? So just because there's a stylus and touch screen that means that it was designed for the casual gamer?  Where's the reasoning behind that? I don't see why Nintendo would be targeting casual gamers who would normally not know what the DS is.  The only way that I can see the casuals, non-gamers, and non-Nintendo fans get interested in the DS would be if they know somebody who is a Nintendo fan that has the DS.  I think word of mouth advertising is how Nintendo is planning on attracting casuals, not by the design of the system.  I'd dare to say that Nintendo should go the route of the PSP if they wanted to attract casuals with just the hardware itself.

[RickPowers]

"Yes, I am. You never said the games had to be good. That's the problem with blanket statements. As for the clarification, and I really think this is a problem with complaining about the DS's library at this point. It's like you are pointing at some grass ten feet ahead of my lawnmower telling me I missed a spot. You know this library problem will get solved in the future, in the very near future even."

I'm sorry if my high standards offend you.  

Seriously, though ... I never bet on the future.  Projects get cancelled, companies shut down.  We can count on getting some good games from Nintendo, I'm sure.  We can also count on crap like Pokemon Dash.  I'm just worried that the DS could become a haven for shovelware for developers to release garbage that looks innovative when it's really the same game with different graphics.  Having developer support is simply NOT GOOD ENOUGH.  The N64 had developer support too, and we got some really god-awful games out of that.  We don't want developers thinking, "Hey, I can make a quick buck by making a mini-game with stylus support" just to fund their other development efforts.  We want developers to stretch, to come up with new ideas, and I just don't see that happening.  I'd rather have fewer quality games than a bunch of crap cluttering up the library like the PS1 had, and it used to be that Nintendo thought the same thing.  Apparently that's changed, judging by the games we're seeing.

I'm not saying that it's 100% bad to have games that are derivitive of other games.  I'm saying that when several games LAUNCH with a system that all contain identical gameplay, when games come out that are derivitive of other games within DAYS of each other and bringing nothing new to the table ... that's a bad omen.

"I don't see much in the PSP's future of being much more than ports."

Wow.  Depending on your definition of the word port, I could say the same thing for the DS.  If port were to mean a game essentially copied directly from the same version on another console, I count one on the DS (Rayman), and two on the PSP (Tiger Woods, Ape Escape).  If your definition is games that are very similar to games on another system, then one could argue that the DS has Mario, Rayman, Wario Ware, Need for Speed, Ridge Racer, etc.  On the PSP, you've got Tiger Woods, Ridge Racer, Tony Hawk, Twisted Metal ... again, there's really little difference.  But I would argue that both systems are seeing games created specifically to take advantage of the hardware rather than being straight ports, and there is no evidence to support saying otherwise.  There will always be ports, but to say that the DS will get more original software than the PSP is naive.

That said, ports aren't BAD, just like gimmicks aren't bad.  Sloppy, rushed ports are bad, and a gimmick instead of gameplay is bad.  I'd rather have a good port that I know is a solid game than an original title that has 15 minutes of gameplay because it's relying on the novelty of a new interface instead of trying to actually do something new with that interface.

A wrestler's "gimmick" is what they used to call the character a wrestler had (or frequently, the character that they were saddled with by the promotion company) when the wrestler was devoid of anything else they could use to get over with the crowd (i.e. wrestling skill, being a good talker, having a chiseled physique).  That's precicely what we're seeing right now ... games that could in no way stand up to scrutiny, and have absolutely no gameplay without the touchscreen.  The trick is, we have to get the developers to stop thinking of the touchscreen as the gameplay, and start thinking of ways to INCORPORATE the touchscreen into the gameplay.  That's not happening yet.