Topic: EDITORIAL: With Great Power ...

[mantidor]

I was also going to quote the ign article with Perrin Kaplan ( I know, the evil site! but I always want to read what Kaplan says) She also points out that what Nintendo wants to do is to expand the market, and what microsoft and sony are doing cleary wont do that. as she said:

"We don't feel the market is broken -- just limited. Nintendo's goal is to increase the total number of game players in addition to serving current players. I know you're a fan of the iPod, a device that changed the music world while everyone else was focused on trying to create the perfect CD player. Likewise, Nintendo is paving a new road with new adventures on the horizon rather than accelerating down the same old path."

[Ian Sane]

"If you see three systems with identical graphics, yet one is a lot more interactive, which would you pick?"

The one that I feel has the better games.  And the truth is a traditional design is going to have more games I like.  That's personal preference of course.  The DS for example is a lot more interactive but it has no games at all currently available that I'm even remotely interested in.  It doesn't matter if it has a touchscreen the games that use it don't interest me and there's no killer "traditional" game for it right now.

Nintendo constantly talks as if the Revolution is for a different target market that MS and Sony don't yet have.  Attracting non-gamers is brought up a lot.  The problem is I'm not a non-gamer and I'm not interested in junk that non-gamers would be interested in.  So maybe Nintendo can go non-traditional and even make a lot of money doing it.  The problem is they'll be successful with a product that doesn't appeal to me.  And since Nintendo is my favourite developer then pretty much no one will make games that appeal to me.  I want Nintendo to be successful so that they can make games I like but I don't care if they're successful if they do so by making games I'm not interested in.

In a way if Nintendo goes too weird they're kind of selling out because they would be abandoning their current fans for a different group of people that may include some of their fans but not all of them.  I want them to innovate but within the style of gaming I like.  A complete overhaul can be innovative but not necessarily enjoyable.  It's like how I want a rock band to be creative within the rock genre but I don't want them to become a rap band.  I want something that's creative and good not just creative.

It seems kind of premature to declare the DS as having a successful formula yet when the PSP hasn't even launched.  Wow Nintendo is kicking ass against no competition.  Big deal.  The DS formula may fail against more traditional competition so using that same philosophy for the Revolution isn't necessarily a good idea.

I see the direction Nintendo is going in as a huge gamble and one that even if it pays off is going to alienate a lot of fans.

[Bill Aurion]

And the truth is a traditional design is going to have more games I like

Oh, so you've played the Revolution?  I KNOW FOR A FACT THAT I WILL LIKE TRADITIONAL GAMES MORE!  I never thought I'd like gaming with a touch screen...The DS changed my mind...I thought Jungle Beat would turn out crap since you used bongo drums...I was proven wrong...Stop being so stubborn telling yourself that you won't like it just because it's something different...

Attracting non-gamers is brought up a lot. The problem is I'm not a non-gamer and I'm not interested in junk that non-gamers would be interested in. So maybe Nintendo can go non-traditional and even make a lot of money doing it. The problem is they'll be successful with a product that doesn't appeal to me.

Um, no...This logic is ridiculous, as you have already decided you won't like the Revolution...And Ninty has NEVER said they are going to concentrate on potential gamers alone, please stop spinning Ninty's quotes and philosophies around so it fits your argument...

It seems kind of premature to declare the DS as having a successful formula yet when the PSP hasn't even launched.

Um, since when has success strictly meant "winning in sales"?  The fact that the DS is doing so well with a new formula and appealing to old and new gamers alike is the REAL success...Ninty has PROVEN that the tried and true traditional method of gaming is NOT the only means of doing so and that people are willing to give new ways a try...

I see the direction Nintendo is going in as a huge gamble and one that even if it pays off is going to alienate a lot of fans.

Just like the DS was a gamble, noone bought that piece of...Wait a second...

So basically your angst-filled argument is built around you being a stick-in-the-mud that isn't willing to try new things...And this coming from someone who has ALSO complained about Ninty not risking enough and creating new franchises...Ironic or what?

[Ian Sane]

"Ninty has PROVEN that the tried and true traditional method of gaming is NOT the only means of doing so and that people are willing to give new ways a try..."

And how have they proven this?  They have released only two first party DS games.  One is a port.  The second is Warioware which is good by widely considered inferior to the GBA Wariowares which were made on a traditional gaming system.  Nintendo hasn't released a game yet that really sells the DS concept.  So to me that suggests that they have not yet proven anything.  The current DS userbase consists of hardcore Nintendo fans, early adopters, and people who consider the DS to be the next Gameboy.  It's just too early to say "yeah the new concepts of the DS were really well accepted."  When Nintendo releases something that truly demonstrates the DS concept as more than just a gimmick and it is really well accepted then we can say that the DS model was a success.

And it's not just me not liking something because it's different.  It's the fact that I don't want something that's completely different.  I like traditional games and I want to play them.  I might like playing "new style" games too but I won't like playing JUST "new style" games.  So if the Revolution is too wacky to play traditional games then it doesn't matter how cool the new ideas are.  It's still restrictive.  It's denying me something I used to have.  So given the choice I would keep what I have already.  It doesn't help that some of new concepts that Nintendo has been introducing like the DS and like connectivity are not that great.  I don't prefer those concepts to the traditional model.  If I don't like Nintendo's most recent new concepts why would I assume that I'll like their next one?

"And this coming from someone who has ALSO complained about Ninty not risking enough and creating new franchises...Ironic or what?"

I like new ideas and innovation and creativity.  I want Nintendo to make new franchises and experiment in genres they haven't really worked with.  I don't like change for the sake of change.  I don't like completely abandoning old ideas.  I don't like complete overhauls.  Like I said before I want a rock band that experiments and is creative as a rock band.  I don't want a rock band that turns into a rap band.  There's big difference between Nintendo making a new franchise and Nintendo completely changing their whole design process for making games.  Plus they AREN'T creating new franchises.  Most of the announced DS games are existing franchises with touchscreen functionality thrown in.  Warioware Touched for example is nothing new.  It's just Warioware... with a touchscreen.

[PaLaDiN]

Ian, you talk so much about options... Nintendo's giving you the option. They're trying something new. If you really want traditional games after seeing Nintendo's option, then there's always Sony's and Microsoft's consoles out there for you to buy instead.

Think about it this way. If you know Nintendo is able to try out a completely different way to play games... but they stick with the old one, same as everybody else... then aren't they denying you the option of playing the new kind of games?

I like your rock and rap analogy. But what if there ARE no rap bands? What if every single band is rock? Wouldn't it be better for everybody if one of them switched to rap?

"And how have they proven this? They have released only two first party DS games. One is a port. The second is Warioware which is good by widely considered inferior to the GBA Wariowares which were made on a traditional gaming system."

True, they haven't proven it's better yet... but they have proven it's possible and can in fact be enjoyable. The potential is there... that can't be denied.

They've also proven something else. Even with the DS, they can still make ports and traditional games... which bodes well for the Revolution being able to play traditional games as well.

[Ian Sane]

"The potential is there... that can't be denied."

Oh no doubt.  I was very interested in the DS when it was first revealed.  I've just soured on it because Nintendo hasn't made use of the vast potential it has.

"Ian, you talk so much about options... Nintendo's giving you the option. They're trying something new. If you really want traditional games after seeing Nintendo's option, then there's always Sony's and Microsoft's consoles out there for you to buy instead."

Well that's a pretty sh!tty business strategy by Nintendo then.  I mean you can use that logic about online gaming too or third party games or genre gaps.  "Buy the competition" is a cop out.  And personally I don't like that option.  I could take that option now if I wanted to.  I have the money.  I can afford to buy a PS2 and Xbox and get everything.  But I don't.  Partially because the insane amount of time required to get the most out of three consoles and partially because even though Nintendo can be restrictive I still currently like them more than Sony or MS.  I don't just want online games for example I want Nintendo online games like Mario Kart.

So let's say Nintendo makes the weirdest system ever in the Revolution.  I don't like what it is but I can just buy a PS3 right?  Well that's not good enough.  I like quite a lot of PS1/2 games but my favourite games are made by Nintendo.  If they didn't exist I probably wouldn't have enough interest in games to buy a whole console.  So if instead of just not existing anymore they change in such a drastic way that they no longer makes the types of games I love anymore.  To me that's the same as Nintendo no longer existing.  The problem is that if Nintendo completely changes into something else their is no other option.  Sony and MS are replacable but Nintendo is not.

[Bill Aurion]

So you are criticising the DS for not being innovative enough, yet also at the same time criticising the Revolution for being TOO innovative...Riiiiiight...

Second, stop acting as if the Japanese market doesn't exist...Let's look at these Famitsu scores for DS games out in Japan and coming soon to the U.S...

Pac Pix - 33/40
Yoshi Touch and Go - 35/40
Another Code - 35/40
Meteos - 38/40

Noone's used the DS' potential eh?  (And Wario Ware is NOT the same game with added touch screen controls...Each of the minigames is BUILT around touch screen use...Perhaps you should play it sometime, as it really seems you haven't)

Third, PLEASE stop acting like the Revolution will make it so traditional games can't be made...You've already pointed out Super Mario 64 DS, so while you were arguing about the "lack of innovation" on the DS you also completely forgot that it damages your "oh noes the Revolution can only play gimmick games" argument...The DS plays traditional games, with the touch screen added at the developer's will, so why couldn't the Revolution be formulated around that very aspect?

[PaLaDiN]

"So if instead of just not existing anymore they change in such a drastic way that they no longer makes the types of games I love anymore. To me that's the same as Nintendo no longer existing. The problem is that if Nintendo completely changes into something else their is no other option. Sony and MS are replacable but Nintendo is not."

What if they make new types of games you love? How do you know if you'll like them or not? How can you just decide you won't like them beforehand? Remember, this is supposed to be something no other game company has done before. I mean I thought Metroid going 3D would be horrible but I actually like Prime the most out of the Metroid series... If Nintendo didn't take risks, games like Prime wouldn't exist. Sure there are the VirtualBoyesque duds, but do you seriously think the industry would be better off without analog sticks, for example?

How about saving your worrying until we have some idea of what the Revolution actually does? Even if the Rev turns out to be total crap, Nintendo will still be able to recover, just like they recovered from the VirtualBoy. They've got a lot of money, you know. At this point you're just letting paranoia and cynicism twist your panties into a bunch.

If you want traditional Nintendo gaming so much, I'm sure they'll accomodate you. They're notorious for providing traditional gaming (some would say a bit too notorious)... I strongly doubt that's going to change. I'm sure the next Gameboy will be perfectly traditional and should be enough to appease any nostalgia I may have by then, just like the GBA lets me relive the SNES days.

[Ian Sane]

"I mean I thought Metroid going 3D would be horrible but I actually like Prime the most out of the Metroid series... If Nintendo didn't take risks, games like Prime wouldn't exist."

Yeah but how you feel if Nintendo said "okay Metroid Prime is now the ONLY way we're making Metroid"?  I love Metroid Prime but I love the GBA Metroids as well.  The fact that they make both is what I really love.  I would be really disappointed if they abandoned the 2D Metroid design.  I don't want to see classic ideas abandoned and I'm worried I might see that with the Revolution.  I think that's reasonable considering all the things NCL has been saying where they have no intention of using existing ideas and stuff like that.  I'll hopefully feel a lot more optimistic and calm about the whole thing once we get more info but right now Nintendo keeps spooking the hell out of me with their comments.

"Even if the Rev turns out to be total crap, Nintendo will still be able to recover, just like they recovered from the VirtualBoy."

The VB was quite a bit different though.  It wasn't meant to be their next console it was really their "third pillar" at the time.  It wasn't good for them that it bombed but the fact that it was something else allowed them to have a good buzz going about the N64.  They had their real next console just waiting around the bend so it was an easy recovery (well there's the N64's problems but those were unrelated to the VB).  Having Nintendo's next "real" console bomb huge would be much harder to recover from.

"So you are criticising the DS for not being innovative enough, yet also at the same time criticising the Revolution for being TOO innovative...Riiiiiight..."

You're seeing things in black and white.  It's not just "innovation is good/innovation is bad".  There needs to be balance.  Too little is no good and too much is no good.  There has to be a good middle point where familiar ideas are expanded on into something new.

"You've already pointed out Super Mario 64 DS, so while you were arguing about the "lack of innovation" on the DS you also completely forgot that it damages your "oh noes the Revolution can only play gimmick games" argument...The DS plays traditional games, with the touch screen added at the developer's will"

I'm not saying the DS can't play traditional games I'm saying it doesn't have any really great ones yet.  I exclude Super Mario 64 DS from this because I don't have to buy a DS in order to play it.  One thing I like about the DS is that it accomodates classic style portable games quite well.  It doesn't work with all console games but neither would any of the Gameboys.

[Bill Aurion]

I'm not saying the DS can't play traditional games I'm saying it doesn't have any really great ones yet. I exclude Super Mario 64 DS from this because I don't have to buy a DS in order to play it. One thing I like about the DS is that it accomodates classic style portable games quite well. It doesn't work with all console games but neither would any of the Gameboys.


I was pointing out the fact that the DS can play traditional games, so it should be taken into account that the Revolution has a high chance of playing such games as well...Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough...

[Avinash_Tyagi]

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I'm not saying the DS can't play traditional games I'm saying it doesn't have any really great ones yet. I exclude Super Mario 64 DS from this because I don't have to buy a DS in order to play it. One thing I like about the DS is that it accomodates classic style portable games quite well. It doesn't work with all console games but neither would any of the Gameboys.

Sorry Ian but you're wrong:

Meteos
Yoshi Touch and Go
Another Code
Pac-Pix

Were all given high scores by Famitsu, with Meteos nearing a perfect score, I think this proves that great games are available for the DS.

[Ian Sane]

"I was pointing out the fact that the DS can play traditional games, so it should be taken into account that the Revolution has a high chance of playing such games as well...Sorry if I didn't make that clear enough..."

I see.  That makes sense.  Next time Nintendo says something weird I'll just say to myself "The DS can still play normal games. The DS can still play normal games."

"Sorry Ian but you're wrong"

All right then.  Sorry 'bout that.

I'll wait until those games are released here before I decide anything about them.  After all what Nintendo does in North America is all that really concerns me.

[PaLaDiN]

"Yeah but how you feel if Nintendo said "okay Metroid Prime is now the ONLY way we're making Metroid"? I love Metroid Prime but I love the GBA Metroids as well. The fact that they make both is what I really love. I would be really disappointed if they abandoned the 2D Metroid design. I don't want to see classic ideas abandoned and I'm worried I might see that with the Revolution. I think that's reasonable considering all the things NCL has been saying where they have no intention of using existing ideas and stuff like that. I'll hopefully feel a lot more optimistic and calm about the whole thing once we get more info but right now Nintendo keeps spooking the hell out of me with their comments."

You just hit upon your solution without even realizing it. The next GBA will most likely offer traditional gaming in the same way that this GBA does. You're forgetting to take the next GBA into account when thinking about the Revolution.

[Earthbound_4ever]

Perhaps the Revolutionary component of Nintendo’s next system has absolutely nothing to do with the interaction and presentation of games to the player. What if the radical change is the interaction and presentation of games towards game developers? Think about it, what is the number one problem with contemporary game development? It's the reality that to make a decent product like Half-Life 2 or Windwaker on today's high-tech machines require unprecedented quantities of time, talent, and most importantly money. Shiguru Miyamoto programmed Donkey Kong like by himself in a few days I believe, Half-Life 2 took 6 @#$!&* years! Think of how many copies Value most move before they begin to see a return on HL2. Perhaps Nintendo is creating a system that revolutionizes how games are programmed. Making it vastly quicker and easier and cheaper to make a high quality game. The shackles that currently repress developers would be lifted and they would finally be able to truly explore the possibilities that next-gen technology could hold! Now that would be revolutionary! Also such a move would fit with Vexx's most accurate description of Nintendo “You forget how conservative Nintendo is….. They want to remain an all ages company and remain profitable without great risk” so much more so than VR gaming or even an all new controller. Also it would eliminate Nintendo's most serious problem from the last two generations, the lack of 3rd party support. Programming games would be so simple and cheap that only an idiot wouldn't port the latest PC or PS3 hit towards the Rev.
Anyway I would really like to see what you all think about this. I know very little about the specifics of game development, I'm just throwing something at the wall and seeing if it sticks. (And I'm really tired of great multi-platforms games not being released on the 'cube)

[Bill Aurion]

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Perhaps the Revolutionary component of Nintendo’s next system has absolutely nothing to do with the interaction and presentation of games to the player.

Um, no...I do think programming for the Rev will be easier, considering Ninty and their "Developer's System" (the DS), but it is definitely a new way to play games...

[Ian Sane]

I've never heard Nintendo suggest anything to do with developer stuff.  At the very least it is something that the general will interact with.

Though it could be something like a portable/console in one or they've done with a download model or that they've licenced out the technology for other electronic companies to integrate Revolution playability into mainstream electronics.  Both of those wouldn't affect how games are played yet would clearly impact the general public.  Though they've heavily hinted that it will have to do with the controls and such.