Topic: Wii Owners Need A Voice

[Stogi]

I think Wii owners have plenty to tap into. I don't really agree with Kairon's point but I understand it.

EDIT:

I guess I should elaborate. Wii owners have the most insane fans and the "hardest of hardcore" gamers. They are called Nintendo fans and we have been here through generation after generation. There are networks, sites, magazines, podcasts, groups, and more all dedicated to this fandom. Wii owners don't just include Nintendo fans, of course, but anyone who loves their Wii system enough to look for a group of other Wii owners can easily find one.

I know it wasn't Kairon's intent to give developers an excuse as to why it is so hard to sell a game on the Wii (which I still don't believe). He merely wanted to point out the fact that maybe, just maybe if Wii owners could be heard then it wouldn't be so difficult. But I think his main argument is flawed....that we are silent. I actually believe that we are the loudest and getting louder. There are more and more of us everyday and more and more of us becoming active fans. Why else do you think only Nintendo games sell? It is because they are doing a great job of turning new gamers into Nintendo fans.

If developers really wanted to know what we like, they wouldn't look at "trends" or "demographics" but facebook and forums. Anyone with a brain can put their thumb on the pulse of Wii owners, but it seems to elude developers.

[Stratos]

That's one of the reasons why Wii won't ever be a lead console for a game like Modern Warfare 2 and anyone who longs for that is just setting themselves up for disappointment.

But we don't necessarily want the Wii to be the lead console, but it has been proven with World at War that a decent Wii version can release with the other versions and Modern Warfare Reflex proves that even 'for HD' games can be made to work and work well on Wii. And these titles sell.  No reason we can't see ports in the same launch window as the HD versions and the fact they do not do it is what is most frustrating.

[Pale]

Maybe, but it isn't as affordable as a port between PS3 and 360 for a developer to do it, which in itself isn't very affordable.

How is Reflex performing?

[KDR_11k]

It passed half a million sales a while ago last I heard. Can't expect too much from it since it's a late inferior port that costs WAY more than the original version costs now (Sony would have demanded exclusive content to make up for the delay).

[BlackNMild2k1]

"Sony would have demanded exclusive content to make up for the delay)."

Nintendo is just happy we got the game, and with all the content.

[Stratos]

Maybe, but it isn't as affordable as a port between PS3 and 360 for a developer to do it, which in itself isn't very affordable.

How is Reflex performing?

NPD confirmed more than 500k a while ago and according to VG Chartz its around 880k.

[Kairon]

I think Wii owners have plenty to tap into. I don't really agree with Kairon's point but I understand it.

EDIT:

I guess I should elaborate. Wii owners have the most insane fans and the "hardest of hardcore" gamers. They are called Nintendo fans and we have been here through generation after generation. There are networks, sites, magazines, podcasts, groups, and more all dedicated to this fandom. Wii owners don't just include Nintendo fans, of course, but anyone who loves their Wii system enough to look for a group of other Wii owners can easily find one.

I know it wasn't Kairon's intent to give developers an excuse as to why it is so hard to sell a game on the Wii (which I still don't believe). He merely wanted to point out the fact that maybe, just maybe if Wii owners could be heard then it wouldn't be so difficult. But I think his main argument is flawed....that we are silent. I actually believe that we are the loudest and getting louder. There are more and more of us everyday and more and more of us becoming active fans. Why else do you think only Nintendo games sell? It is because they are doing a great job of turning new gamers into Nintendo fans.

If developers really wanted to know what we like, they wouldn't look at "trends" or "demographics" but facebook and forums. Anyone with a brain can put their thumb on the pulse of Wii owners, but it seems to elude developers.

I think we are, as a fanbase, getting louder, more proactive, and involved Kashogi. Definitely a lot of what you say is true.

It's simply that I believe that, despite our own personal examples, there are still large segments of the Wii owner community that aren't being empowered to speak like we already are, and consequently aren't being listened to. And, because of that, game makers will have extra difficulty in making relevant and successful games because they're used to relying on forms of consumer feedback and connection that aren't as relevant.

But I guess we're not really arguing anyway, just both pointing out how we have different conclusions.

[sigrah0x7ba]

Long time lurker, rare poster... and maybe last time as well.

This is one of the dumbest things I think I have ever heard.

Wii gamers need a voice? Since when? Since when does any console need a voice any louder than the market?

I don't remember gamers needing a voice during the 8bit generation or the 16bit generation or the 32/64bit generation. And the voice this generation was just beginning to form last generation. Where is this so-called voice that the other consoles have that the Wii does not? Or are you talking about the rabbit console fanboys who fall over themselves to listen to every little soundbite that they can find? Because, believe it or not, 3rd parties don't listen to that voice at all. If they did, they'd all be out of business before this generation is over.

[MoronSonOfBoron]

If you don't know there's a voice, then you haven't been lurking enough.

[sigrah0x7ba]

If you don't know there's a voice, then you haven't been lurking enough.

There is no voice that matters anywhere near as much as the market. Everything else is superfluous... and ego.

And as for how long I've been lurking here... I won't even dignify that with a response.

[Kairon]

I don't remember gamers needing a voice during the 8bit generation or the 16bit generation or the 32/64bit generation.

I think that most tellingly, Nintendo GAVE the console market its voice in the 8-bit age. More than merely reinvigorating the U.S. console market, they actively created and united a consumer culture, especially around the print magazine Nintendo Power. After that, the following generations basically built from and adapted the existing methods of audience connection without needing to re-invent the wheel as much as Nintendo did in the 1980's.

With the Wii bringing about so much change, and in some ways hearkening back to the NES in how it redefines the people who play videogames, I think finding a way to make the voice of the audience more inclusive and more cohesive would be a great help.

Because, believe it or not, 3rd parties don't listen to that voice at all. If they did, they'd all be out of business before this generation is over.

Actually, there are those on the forum who would argue that that is already happening...

There is no voice that matters anywhere near as much as the market. Everything else is superfluous... and ego.

The market is a SPECTACULAR voice, I agree. But it's after the fact. It takes a long time, money, and effort to learn its lessons.

Oh, it's hard to argue with the market showing what doesn't work, sure, but the market is like hindsight. It's always 20/20. And frankly, after three years of "20/20", I'm sure we're all ready for something a little more proactive.

[sigrah0x7ba]

I think that most tellingly, Nintendo GAVE the console market its voice in the 8-bit age. More than merely reinvigorating the U.S. console market, they actively created and united a consumer culture, especially around the print magazine Nintendo Power. After that, the following generations basically built from and adapted the existing methods of audience connection without needing to re-invent the wheel as much as Nintendo did in the 1980's.

With the Wii bringing about so much change, and in some ways hearkening back to the NES in how it redefines the people who play videogames, I think finding a way to make the voice of the audience more inclusive and more cohesive would be a great help.

Nintendo is following the exact same pattern that you said they followed back with the NES. Why is it so hard for 3rd parties to see that and follow suit? Nintendo has laid out the Wii market for them. They either refuse to see it or simply aren't interested. And considering that there was no need to "make the voice of the audience more inclusive and cohesive" then why would you think it would need to now? Besides, it's impossible to do that. No matter what you do you'll never be able to reach enough people and get enough response to actually ferment this "voice" you're on about.

Actually, there are those on the forum who would argue that that is already happening...

And it will ruin gaming for all. When has listening to a small vocal minority ever been good for the whole? I'm just glad that Nintendo isn't that stupid.

The market is a SPECTACULAR voice, I agree. But it's after the fact. It takes a long time, money, and effort to learn its lessons.

Oh, it's hard to argue with the market showing what doesn't work, sure, but the market is like hindsight. It's always 20/20. And frankly, after three years of "20/20", I'm sure we're all ready for something a little more proactive.

No. Plain and simple no. The market is the only voice of consequence. You may seem to think that there is something else out there but there's not. Yes, there is a voice here and yes, I understand what you are trying to do but it means nothing in the larger picture. You're a whisper in a throng of screaming voices. This "voice" you want, that you want to create, can be little more than that. You will never reach enough people. You will never form a strong enough collective. All you can do is hold on to your little corner of the internet.

And as for 20/20 hindsight. Who would have thought the NES would have taken off let alone completely recreate the video games business in it's image. At the beginning of this generation the Wii was predicted to flop and be Nintendo's last console. Every voice was saying that. Every voice except the one that mattered: The market. The market said nothing. The market showed everything.

All we can ever have is hindsight. Unless you know someone who can predict the future. I don't. No one does.

And the market will go on.

[Kairon]

Dude, sorta depressing to have that outlook. T_T

I don't think I can agree to the idea that we should all just throw up our hands and not try to learn, listen to, and understand the market. I don't think anyone will be ever to tell the future, but man... there's a reason that Nintendo's still around after all these years, and there's a reason they're this successful. They try.

[KDR_11k]

The problem is quite frankly that the market is not being listened to, third parties prefer to follow the voices inside their heads. So our main voice is failing. Third parties keep making shovelware despite the market telling them to stop, if anything succeeds they clone it over and over despite sales dropping pretty damn quickly (i.e. the market telling them that the first game is enough). Things that work like RE4 or Red Steel are quietly ignored while failures like Madworld or The Conduit are pointed at as "proof" that the market wants only shovelware.

[BlackNMild2k1]

Madworld & The Conduit were both profitable and Sega was satisfied if not happy with the performance of both of those titles. I also don't think either of those games are shovelware.

[sigrah0x7ba]

Dude, sorta depressing to have that outlook. T_T

I don't think I can agree to the idea that we should all just throw up our hands and not try to learn, listen to, and understand the market. I don't think anyone will be ever to tell the future, but man... there's a reason that Nintendo's still around after all these years, and there's a reason they're this successful. They try.

You just don't understand how freeing it is to not have to worry about all the little crap that goes on around the internet. All you have to do is buy the games you like and have fun. The problem comes in when you can't have fun because everyone else on the internet is too busy talking about useless things like this. Sure, you can debate the market and discuss trends and whatnot but that's really all that you can do. However that's not all that's going on here. Everyone trying to have their voice be heard, to make their voice the voice of gaming, is permeating into everything and the games are being pushed aside. How about instead we all just have fun. Get over ourselves and have fun.

The problem is quite frankly that the market is not being listened to, third parties prefer to follow the voices inside their heads. So our main voice is failing. Third parties keep making shovelware despite the market telling them to stop, if anything succeeds they clone it over and over despite sales dropping pretty damn quickly (i.e. the market telling them that the first game is enough). Things that work like RE4 or Red Steel are quietly ignored while failures like Madworld or The Conduit are pointed at as "proof" that the market wants only shovelware.

If you need something to cling to then this. This right here. Cling to this and realize that the real voice of gaming is being ignored and try and help that one to be heard. Please stop distracting people. All you're going to do is hurt the real voice... if anything at all. Most likely you're just going to waste your time which is a pity because it could have been used for something really useful.

Madworld & The Conduit were both profitable and Sega was satisfied if not happy with the performance of both of those titles. I also don't think either of those games are shovelware.

KDR_11K is right though, I've seen developers sight those title to try and support the whole games won't sell on Wii argument. It doesn't seem to matter how well Sega feels those games did or whether or not the games are of actual merit, others believe that they should have sold better (whatever that's supposed to mean) and as such they failed in their duty, which apparently was to completely create a PS360 style market on the Wii all by themselves.

The stupidity I see being vomited up by developers in this industry is staggering. Almost as staggering as the amount of useless arguing I see going on on forms such as this one. However, I do have to admit that for the most part this forum does seem to be more civil than most. It's just that the discussions are beginning to go in the wrong direction. Topics like "What Do we want from the wii successor" and "What We want From the Next DS Hand Held" have me very worried. Almost everyone seems to be throwing technology at the problem. I've only seem a handful of people, at that, saying anything about fun games. Hell, saying anything about games at all. If people here had had their way I would never have bought a Wii or a DS.

Gaming is about games first. Not the hardware. Not the grafixz. Not the bluerays. I'd hate to see them die out because people have screwed up priorities.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I should have mentioned that I think Dead Space Extraction would have been a much better example and much more deserving of the ridicule.

And for the record, I agree with you, about the topics and the discussions.
But when talking about hardware successors, I think we all go with the assumptions that there will be more better games. The amount of tech thrown into the system isn't gonna affect how fun a well thought out, designed and programmed game will be, but it doesn't hurt to want some of the latest and greatest that can be afforded to be powering those games if possible.

[Kairon]

You just don't understand how freeing it is to not have to worry about all the little crap that goes on around the internet. All you have to do is buy the games you like and have fun. The problem comes in when you can't have fun because everyone else on the internet is too busy talking about useless things like this. Sure, you can debate the market and discuss trends and whatnot but that's really all that you can do. However that's not all that's going on here. Everyone trying to have their voice be heard, to make their voice the voice of gaming, is permeating into everything and the games are being pushed aside. How about instead we all just have fun. Get over ourselves and have fun.

Hey, don't have to tell me twice! The Wii is, like, the perfect console for me and my current gaming tastes, with everything from We Cheer to No More Heroes, from Wii Music to House of the Dead: Overkill, from Zelda to Mario to everything in between...

I do admit to liking having a more complex relationship to gaming than merely playing fun games but... well, I feel very well squared away in that regard.

[Kairon]

I think you guys missed the entire Kairon's entire point....

what goes around comes around.....

Hey! I am an adamant defender of the wall of shame! ... which, uh, can be taken in more ways than one...

[Plugabugz]

Did you really throw pasta on the wall as an illustration for us?

I assume the answer to this is yes.

[Kairon]

Did you really throw pasta on the wall as an illustration for us?

I assume the answer to this is yes.

Hehe. I'd love to be able to prove that I'm that dedicated, but it's actually the internet that threw pasta on the wall for me.

[ThePerm]

you know i have never seen a Conduit or Madworld commercial, i watch a crapload of tv too. According to Peter Main in 2000 Nintendo spends 100s of millions of dollars in marketing. Also, you know i don't think marketing is as expensive as people make it out to be, the girls gone wild company can't be worth nearly as much as most of the big 3rd parties and they have constant advertising.

[Stogi]

....at 1 o'clock in the morning...