Topic: All Haters of Friend Codes REJOICE (at least in the UK)!!

[Deguello]

Quote
b) Dequello trying to compare the DS friend code system to Xbox Live, despite the glaringly obvious differences.

I fail to see them.  One is an online service, so is the other.  You can't conveniently separate handhelds from the gaming spectrum just because you don't like the data.  They still count even though Sony isn't doing well in it.  All I'm saying is, if friend codes are supposed to be some kind of deterrent or something, why is Nintendo Wifi connection zooming up like that, already reaching more than half Xbox Live's userbase?  And that's basically just Mario Kart DS, Animal Crossing, and Japan's Pokemon, In one year.  It was new to handhelds?  Sure.

Pittbboi, your argument is couched in the "giving gamers what they want" logic hole.  What's the hole?  Simple.  Many gamers want different things.  We furthermore do not all want the same things from an online service too.  Know what I want?  To not pay any sort of money for it.  That rules out Xbox Live for me.  Money's tight.  Hey wifi is free?  Neat. I have to put in a number for each of my buds if I want to race exclusively with them?  No problem, because I'm not paying a cent.  THAT is why Nintendo Wifi Connection is soaring upward.  You can take your poll as to whether or not gamers want to put in friend codes in, but at the same time, ask them if they would like to pay $50 a year for it.  Hey that poll has already been taken!  2002 Microsoft asked gamers if they wanted to pay $50 a year for Online play.  By 2007, 6 million people said yes.  In 2005 Nintendo asked gamers if they would want to pay $0 for online play, while having to input codes if you want to play with your friends and not a bunch of random people.  By 2007, 3.5 million people said yes.  In fact it is probably BECAUSE of this setup that Nintendo Wifi Connection is flourishing faster.  And to see why, you'd need to get your head out of the cynical and pansy-sensitive forums and take a look at differing opinions.  Here's mine.

Did you know you actually do have to put in numbers for Xbox Live?  Yeah!  your credit card.  Oh you don't have one?  Better get one.  And after you fill out the forms to get one, you can fill out some more and enter your 16-digits credit card number and set up a profile and persona and join the Xbox Live gaming Community.  But I don't want all that.  Gamercard?  Nah, I don't feel the need to gloat about what games I'm playing.  Achievements?  This is what I'm playing $50 for, so they can keep score for me?  I'll take a picture if I ever find anybody that cares what my time in Excite Truck is.  And you know what, I really don't like voice chat.  Seriously, most of the time I tried Xbox Live at a friend's place I just muted it because I couldn't stand the idiocy or the drama.  This is why I like Nintendo Wifi.  I can get what I want out of online games without paying for stuff I don't.  And that's why Nintendo Wifi is moving faster, despite all the surface bitching about it.

[Infernal Monkey]

^^ Post of the year confirmed.

[Pittbboi]

You completely overlooked everything I said in an attempt to make friend codes look attractive.

You basically made my point for me. The DS, even with it's crappy friend code system, is a HANDHELD that is selling like wildfire. And the service is free. So of course, as odifiend said, it's going to do better than a home console online service that you have to pay for WITH a credit card, and NEED a broadband connection to work with (these are the glaring differences, by the way)...if you look at pure numbers. One thing that absolutely frustrates me with a lot of Nintendo fans is this idea that the Wii and DS are completely interchangeable in EVERY scenario--that it's always ok to speak for one with the other. That is not true, and it definitely isn't true in this case. Yes, they're both online services, but you're kidding yourself if you think the DS isn't more accessible, despite not being out longer. But, being more accessible doesn't always make it better because, feature for feature, Xbox Live slams it. Simple as that.

People play online with the DS but that doesn't mean they LOVE the setup or that Nintendo shouldn't improve it.  People play online with DS because the want to play Nintendo handheld games online and are willing to suffer through a terrible system to do it, and right now what I fear is that they're going to use the raw numbers to convince themselves they don't have to improve it. What I fear the most is that they're going tothink that this is a brilliant system for their home console, and I don't think it is. This is console gaming we're talking about--not an experimental handheld. There are higher standards, and when comparing to Xbox360's brilliant Live services, and PS3's impending Home service which is looking to be more innovative than both Xbox Live and the Wii's online by a mile, as far as online infrastructures go (AND it's free and on a system that is costing Sony money to produce, so that blows the "but friend codes are free!" argument out of the water), the Wii won't have an excuse. And with rumors going around that Xbox Live is going to become a completely free service in the future, I just fear that the Wii's online is not going to stand out in any way. Free doesn't have to mean mediocre. And I think calling friend codes "mediocre" is a compliment.

It doesn't matter if you personally don't like certain Live features, but plenty of people do. Plenty of people like features that have been commonplace in free online gaming for years that friend codes restrict. If there's a feature you personally don't like you don't have to use it, but why restrict other people from having access to these features? That's what friend codes do. No matter what side of the fence you sit on, there's no denying that. And that's what I mean when I say Xbox Live deserves the credit, because it strives to give games what they want by offering the basics and then some, and giving you OPTIONS. And Sony, surprisingly, is striving to do the very same thing free of charge. You can't say the same about Nintendo with friend codes.    

[Infernal Monkey]

Except, you know, people don't WANT some silly complex online world to walk around and talk to eachother in. That's all Home is. It's like WoW but without anything else to do. And with more nerds. Sims Online bombed for a reason you know.

[Deguello]

Quote
If there's a feature you personally don't like you don't have to use it, but why restrict other people from having access to these features?

BECAUSE WHEN I USE XBOX LIVE I AM PAYING FOR IT AND I DO NOT LIKE PAYING FOR THINGS I DO NOT USE.

God sake's, I never said that Nintendo Wifi Connection was BETTER.  I just said it is growing faster and therefore more successful.  And it is better to me, personally, because I don't like most of the Live features and I will be damned before I pay for it, because I don't like them.

Quote
It doesn't matter if you personally don't like certain Live features, but plenty of people do.

So it's OK for you to blather on and on about your opinions all day long but another poster, a mod no less, is denied his opinion's worth when we are TALKING ABOUT WHAT WE THINK?  Is nobody allowed to actually like the no-strings-attached approach Nintendo Wifi takes?  And what is allowed to be said the next time you find yourself standing alone with your opinion, Pittbboi, which happens quite frequently?  Tough ****?

Friend codes are adequate enough for people who don't spend all day bitching about them, and since Nintendo's Wifi is growing by leaps and bounds, I would say the market has weighed in there too, so who cares what the ivory-tower forum people say?.  Free is better than pay everyday.  Your opinion has absolutely zero effect on the numbers, which are favoring Nintendo's online connection to possibly even grow past Xbox Live, all by being free to the average user, who probably doesn't care about leaderboards or achievements or virtual houses or game trophies, but does want to play somebody in Mario Kart fom Sweden.

[Mario]

Quote
It doesn't matter if you personally don't like certain Live features, but plenty of people do.

Good job contradicting everything you've ever said about the DS online system. This thread is a complete joke, no real person has a problem with entering a code to play someone online, LMAO. If that seriously affects you, you have other problems to worry about.

[mottsc]

Here is how entering friend codes for each game can be made without it being the burden everyone is anticipating. You go to add a friend and it pops up a list of all the Wii friend codes you already have with the option to add a new one. Then in the average case it's just a few seconds instead of the error-prone process of entering the code from scratch every time. It seems like the logical way to implement this scheme, but that doesn't mean it will happen.

[Pittbboi]

Quote
BECAUSE WHEN I USE XBOX LIVE I AM PAYING FOR IT AND I DO NOT LIKE PAYING FOR THINGS I DO NOT USE.

And did you just completely disregard Home, and OTHER online structures that give you tons more functionality for free? FORGET about Xbox Live for a second, it's not JUST a comparison to Xbox Live. You're using Xbox Live as a shield to try and insinuate that friend codes are the entry fee for a free online service, and that just isn't true. Because its been done before...PLENTY of times.

Quote
So it's OK for you to blather on and on about your opinions all day long but another poster, a mod no less, is denied his opinion's worth when we are TALKING ABOUT WHAT WE THINK? Is nobody allowed to actually like the no-strings-attached approach Nintendo Wifi takes? And what is allowed to be said the next time you find yourself standing alone with your opinion, Pittbboi, which happens quite frequently? Tough ****?

Oh, who's denying you your opinion? I'm just disagreeing with you (which I do quite frequently). Maybe this is a bit of insight as to why you seem to get so personally offended every time I disagree with you. Feel free to disagree with me all you want, but you won't see me get so personally invested in it. You can love friend codes all you want, but I don't...and a LOT of people don't (so I highly doubt it's just me standing alone with this OUTLANDISH opinion). The only difference I'm pointing out is that you still have yet to explain to me how friend codes DON'T restrict basic features that other, FREE online structures, have had standard for years.

Quote
Friend codes are adequate enough for people who don't spend all day bitching about them

They're not adequate for the person who, for example, lives in an area or amongst a group where he is the only person with a DS and doesn't have anyone to exchange friend codes with. And it's not as accessible to the non-gamer who is in this same environment who doesn't know enough to go crawling around message boards to exchange codes with strangers.

Quote
Free is better than pay everyday. Your opinion has absolutely zero effect on the numbers, which are favoring Nintendo's online connection to possibly even grow past Xbox Live,

Of course free is better than pay. But should we not expect a higher standard from Nintendo just because what they're offering is free? Home may offer a Sim Online-esque atmosphere that some people might not want to go through to play a game online, but is that ENOUGH to overlook the fact that Home is providing tons more functionality to online play for FREE? Should we overlook the fact that the Dreamcast provided more functionality over a modem for FREE? Should we also overlook that compared to PCs, ALL consoles are late to the party?

And you continue to disregard that maybe there's more of a factor here than just numbers. Or that the DS is a HANDHELD that provides the service for free at a cost of friend codes. Most people pro-friend codes can really only argue that they're not that bad. Very few people actually prefer them.

[Shift Key]

Quote
This is console gaming we're talking about--not an experimental handheld. There are higher standards, and when comparing to Xbox360's brilliant Live services, and PS3's impending Home service which is looking to be more innovative than both Xbox Live and the Wii's online by a mile, as far as online infrastructures go (AND it's free and on a system that is costing Sony money to produce, so that blows the "but friend codes are free!" argument out of the water), the Wii won't have an excuse.

No, you're wrong. Live is not brilliant. It has features. But the interesting and useful features are what the games have implemented, such as matchmaking and setting up games. I still feel that I spend too much time sitting in lobbies waiting for people to join in and configuring games and all that rubbish, and given the choice I'd rather jump into any random game for a couple of quick matches. But the options are there. Its just that you're confusing one game that started the more console-friendly online games (Halo 2) with the entire Xbox library. I'd be surprised if you could name any more games that built on the innovative potential of online gaming for consoles.

And Home is nothing more than Second Life with fewer penis attacks. Well, I can't speak much about what the future will hold. And that's the wrong path to take with online gaming - building an online world. Because that's not what I want to do - I want to play games on my console. I have a computer and a life. Home brings nothing innovative to the table aside from a new attempt to raid my wallet. Pity it was in the form of digital furniture and digital brands. Yeah, that's your subscription. Oh, and the advertising.

Online gaming has potential, but there's nothing really appealing to me. Its currently either excessive or absurd depending on the product.

[ryancoke]

I've never used live before. How does it differ from the average PC game lobby?

[Pittbboi]

Quote
But the options are there.

And that's my ENTIRE POINT in a nutshell.

Just because I'm saying Xbox Live is better doesn't mean I love it to death or something. It's not the second coming or anything, but it strives to provide OPTIONS. The games CAN offer these things within the system. With friend codes, not so much.

Quote

And Home is nothing more than Second Life with fewer penis attacks.

But there's a fundamental difference. Second Life is a world all in itself. Home might be doing a similar thing, but it's an interface for Sony's online gaming platform. All the features that Second Life and Home have in common are only integral to Second Life. In Home, they're just extra bells and whistles in addition to online gaming that, from what I know, you don't have to make use of. I could be wrong about that though--I've never played Second Life.

[UltimatePartyBear]

What exactly is part of every XBox Live game and what's implemented on a per game basis?

I think there's really only one thing that Nintendo's system as we know it really doesn't support that I would like to see.  If I play in a random matchup against a person who turns out to be really fun to play against, I'd like to be able to play against him again in the future.  Nintendo has provided for that with the rivals list, but it is game-specific.  If I add people who display skill and sportsmanship in one game, I'd like to be able play them in other games, too.  Also, without any means of communication, I can't know whether he adds me as a rival.  Furthermore, without communication, it's impossible to upgrade to friends.  I think it would be better if parental controls could allow or disallow communication with non-friends, at least with rivals.  If they were on by default and protected by a random, strong password that can only be obtained by contacting Nintendo and verifying your age, maybe that would be enough to C Nintendo's A.  I don't know.  I'm just thinking out loud... er, typing out... just typing what I'm thinking.

Per-game friend codes are redundant on the Wii insomuch as I've already OKed personal contact with people through the Wii, so I hope that in games it's as simple as pulling them in from the main list.  That would make a lot of sense, really, since it's possible that I might like to play certain games with some of my friends but not with others.  The same could be true of rivals, so per game lists do make sense as long as it's easy to fill them in.

[Plugabugz]

Would this argument be any different if it weren't per game friend codes but per game username?

[31 Flavas]

I'm guessing not. You could use a centralized nickname like XBL (which would intoduce setup hassel for the user), but I know Nintendo and they will want to maintain the double lock on "friends". Which is the main point of frustration for many are expressing. So you'd still have people vehemntly trashing the system.

[SixthAngel]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi

Quote
But the options are there.

And that's my ENTIRE POINT in a nutshell.

Just because I'm saying Xbox Live is better doesn't mean I love it to death or something. It's not the second coming or anything, but it strives to provide OPTIONS. The games CAN offer these things within the system. With friend codes, not so much.

The option I see is to pay 50 dollars or not play online.  Where are the multiple options?  Many people, like me, think that nintendo wifi is better because it is free.  Whether or not the problem you have with it can be fixed while keeping it free doesn't matter, because even with flaws we find it better then a pay system like live.  

[Pittbboi]

I'll reply with the same thing I said earlier:

Quote

And did you just completely disregard Home, and OTHER online structures that give you tons more functionality for free? FORGET about Xbox Live for a second, it's not JUST a comparison to Xbox Live. You're using Xbox Live as a shield to try and insinuate that friend codes are the entry fee for a free online service, and that just isn't true. Because its been done before...PLENTY of time

Also, it's not as though Nintendo made friend codes in order to keep online free--as far as I know that has nothing to do with the purpose of friend codes. It's mostly about keeping online safe for "everyone". I challenge anyone to find a quote of someone from Nintendo saying one of the purposes of friend codes is to keep online free. I mean, I may be wrong and that may very well be a reason; but from everything I've read it doesn't seem like keeping online free is the point of friend codes--so the free defense doesn't really work.

[Shift Key]

Quote
Originally posted by: Pittbboi
Just because I'm saying Xbox Live is better doesn't mean I love it to death or something. It's not the second coming or anything, but it strives to provide OPTIONS. The games CAN offer these things within the system. With friend codes, not so much.

What options besides "live" friends lists and instant messaging are so fundamentally critical to your ideal online gaming environment that you consider them key options? I can't think of anything that the Live service does that can be implemented using friend codes.

I reckon its not a feature issue you're complaining about, but a privacy issue. You want a massive list of random people you meet through randomly generated games to play with. And that's got nothing to do with the friend codes. That's a privacy issue.

Quote
But there's a fundamental difference. Second Life is a world all in itself. Home might be doing a similar thing, but it's an interface for Sony's online gaming platform. All the features that Second Life and Home have in common are only integral to Second Life. In Home, they're just extra bells and whistles in addition to online gaming that, from what I know, you don't have to make use of. I could be wrong about that though--I've never played Second Life.

From the homebetatrial.com site

Quote
Home™ is a real-time 3D, networked community that serves as a meeting place for PLAYSTATION®3 (PS3™) users from around the world, where they can interact, communicate, join online games, shop, share content and even build their own personal spaces.

Its more than just an interface. Its excessive and ridiculous. If they were going to focus on the online gaming service rather than the social side of things then perhaps I'd be more welcoming. Because it sounds a lot like they're more interested in those Second Life concepts.

[AwesomeMan]

Quote
Originally posted by: Shift KeyI can't think of anything that the Live service does that can be implemented using friend codes.

it could do a scoreboard/achievement thing, between all your friends, which i would actually prefer over one with everyone who plays it, with a universal scoreboard you would have no idea if it top scores were hacked.


I'm quite indifferent to friendcodes cause i only recently got a DS. They suck for Mario vs DK2, but i like C:PoR's wfc. ive played online games on pc and DC and i couldn't stand them, too many idiots ruining the experience(kicking you because you are actually doing good or being load and obnoxious). Also i only played one online game that was remotely worth it(diablo2), the rest seem like the devs couldn't make a passable game so the threw in online to convince people it's good(and sadly it works).

maybe it's just because I've never liked competitive games genres though.

[Shift Key]

Quote
Originally posted by: Shift KeyI can't think of anything that the Live service does that can't be implemented using friend codes.

That's what I meant to say. Carry on.

And yes, scoreboards are easy to implement, but require servers to track the game information. Halo 2 has a web interface where you can view your standings or even detailed summaries of games you were involved in.

[vherub]

For me, the problem isn't friend codes, but what friend codes stand for, and that is nintendo's resistance to online gaming. The online gaming system they have proposed seems far less robust than Live. If there must be friend codes, I would like one friend code per system, not per game. I just do not see online play getting as much attention and support from nintendo as it should. This might have been the right strategy for the gamecube (maybe not), but it will be the wrong strategy now, and this atttitude/confusion no doubt affects 3rd party publishers.