Topic: Good Lord, Another Editorial: Can't Touch This

[nemo_83]

Last night I was waiting for my friends to get ready to go out and there was a girl sitting in the living room with us while someone was playing Halo 2.  My friend asked her why she hates the game, she said she didn't, but she obviously doesn't like it either.  My friend then surprised me with a comment about the controls, he was like, "look you just put your thumbs here."  He was joking and stuff, but all I could think about at that point was I bet she would like the DS.  The thing is traditional gaming is all about hitting keys or at least using primarily your thumbs.  The DS makes you use your hand and I think that is what Nintendo is up to with the Revolution.  Traditional gamers I feel presently are alienated by Nintendo's planning for software lineup for DS and soon the Revolution with not much that is either new, traditional, or complete.  Instead with their software so far the only market they have gone for are nongamers with the DS.  Otherwise we would have gotten a Mario game we didn't already own at launch, maybe a shooter, a RTS, or a RPG to sate our desires for a game that uses the touch screen not just to be using it, but because it is better because of the touch screen.  Instead they are trying to attract girls, which is great for girls and Nintendo; but bad for us gamers.  Just look at cube.ign.com's new Nintendo minute in which Nintendogs and Electroplankton or whatever it is called are compared to Mario and Zelda.  What are they smoking?  I think I might have to pass on their grass.

Nintendo may want to involve the hands more than the thumbs in the most important actions in games with the Revolution, which is great unless they only use it to deliver Jungle Beat, Wario Ware, and a remake of Sunshine to us.  I have a fear that they will think too heavily of the gyro technology, eliminate face buttons, and have us shake the controller to jump.  I sympathize with their want to simplify things, but they need to think about making an impact on the consumers now and not waiting five years for the competition to make it accessable to the consumers by adding face buttons and joysticks on top of the gyro controllers.  Most importantly Nintendo doesn't need to wait five years before they figure out that the competition is going to woop their butts because Nintendo had this great controller for five years and didn't release any games for it that appealed to people who traditionaly play and buy games.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Well for the Launch Nintendo rushed out the DS in order to beat the PSP, which is why the DS has had a dearth of games, however that's changing and many great games are on the way, games that will appeal to the hardcore gamers as well as games which will appeal to new segments.  That's what Nintendo's trying to do move in a direction which will bring more people into the market by changing the way the games are played.

As for games like Nintendogs that type of game is popular with certain segments of the population, remember all those elctronic pet games?

[RickPowers]

I'm going to get the Puppy Times version with the Beagle!  Then Casey can get jealous while I play with my electronic dog.  

[nemo_83]

Quote
Originally posted by: Avinash_Tyagi
Well for the Launch Nintendo rushed out the DS in order to beat the PSP, which is why the DS has had a dearth of games, however that's changing and many great games are on the way, games that will appeal to the hardcore gamers as well as games which will appeal to new segments.  That's what Nintendo's trying to do move in a direction which will bring more people into the market by changing the way the games are played.

As for games like Nintendogs that type of game is popular with certain segments of the population, remember all those elctronic pet games?

i see the benefit of attracting that market, but i don't want to see experimental games like those chosen for production over a new adventure game.

[Avinash_Tyagi]

If you like Adventure games you'll love Another Code.

The basic thing is Nintendo isn't going to ignore its base, its just looking to expand its base.

[Don'tHate742]

Nemo is right in certian respects. If they aren't trying to ignore its base then they would have shipped many games that would pertain to its base. Many Nintendo fans like RPG's, are there any? Many Nintendo fans also like platformers, are they any orignal ones? Many Nintendo fans like Super freaking Smash Bros., is it here? These questions almost prove that Nintendo is ignoring their fans.

Nintendo needs to realize that it can do both at the same time, get new gamers while pleasing the old....I guess Nintendogs is a good example, but there are way better games that could do the same thing, but of course, better. RTS's and such can attract the market that console companies have always tried to get, PC gamers. What about RPG's like Super Mario RPG or Paper Mario, they definitely appeal to the masses (there easy to get a hang of and are easy to control, plus ALOT of fun). A pikmin game could be a perfect stragety game that could hit big with those "I need something to play other than DAMN SOLITAIRE." It could be easy enough to play since its would basically be "Hit button: Seperate groups, use touchscreen: highlight red group, use touch screen: point in direction to throw, hit button: throw, use d-pad: run away." Plus that again could pertain to the "I need to take care of something" group. A PDA accesory would be nice for the group that doesn't just want a game machine, or doesn't think it's worth to buy. What about the hardest group, the group that loves movies but don't care for games. They could make a game not unlike WarioWare, but instead play out scenes of familiar movies. For example, "Dodge Bullets" would showcase Neo as he dodged bullets, or "Order the hit" Could show you the scene that we always wanted to see in Godfather movie, where he basically orders the assassination of everyone in the movie. Extra goodies, such as never before scenes would attract alot of people (they love that stuff). Of course it would be a pain in the arse to do that (licencing fees and such) but that's why they're the hardest groups.

[Hostile Creation]

They are making RPGs, they are making platformers (Yoshi Touch&Go?; SM64DS, even though it's a port), and Super freaking Smash Bros is a possibility.  Though I may not even get a version on a DS, the controls aren't intuitive enough.  They'd have to really impress me, just saying you want Smash Bros is dumb, it has to be practical.  Unless you want an idiot smack-match, it won't be a fun game on a handheld.

[Ian Sane]

"If they aren't trying to ignore its base then they would have shipped many games that would pertain to its base."

While I suspect that Nintendo is, at least partially, ignoring their base with the DS I don't think the current lineup is a result of it.  I see the current lineup as the result of a rushed launch.  A remake/port and a Warioware game are a lot easier to get ready in time than an RPG.  Nintendo is making a new Advance Wars game and that's not likely going to be something for non-gamers.

Though I do think, likely unintentionally, we will get somewhat ignored because of Nintendo's general attitude towards game design.  Nintendo usually tries to make their games have universal appeal.  While Sony tries to provide a lineup with a lot of variety so that everyone can find a game they like Nintendo's approach is to make it so that everybody can like every game.  That's why EAD never makes mature games or any sort of niche game.  Now Nintendo wants to expand to include non-gamers.  And judging by the way they do things that means that instead of making real gamer's games and non-gamer's game they'll make universal titles for both.  That's why instead of a new Yoshi's Island we're getting a point based Yoshi game because that allows for more universal appeal.  The problem with this is that if the net is too wide and a game has to attract everybody we're going to be left with something that doesn't have much depth.  We won't be ignored as much as EAD (I've noticed IS, NST, and Retro don't do this as much) will just alter our games to appeal to non-gamers and we'll just FEEL ignored because we won't get exactly what we want.

Basically Nintendo may be comprimising their games because of this expanded focus.

[nemo_83]

if their games are suppossed to attract people of all walks of life then why can't those games sell peanuts compared to GTA?  Luigi's Mansion and Mario Sunshine were wastes of money.  Mario Bros. are suppossed to sell twenty million copies.

[Don'tHate742]

Ian's right...that could potentially be a huge flaw in Nintendo's scheme of things.

They need a good mixture, not a solution. From Non-gamers to Gamers, a broad range of games. I mention this in another thread, but if this type of mix existed, Non-gamers would "pratice" playing games that pertian to them. Then, one day they might it exciting to play a real gamers game with the depth and though process needed to suceed. The type of games that are fun, but only becuase of the struggle. Thus, these Non-gamers transform into plain gamers.

This should be Nintendo's strategy. And since it doesn't take long to make non-gamer type of games, it shouldn't hog up resources.

[TheZooKeeper]

Quote
But for the most part, I’m not convinced that the touch screen offers anything useful to the DS that couldn’t be done (and probably better) with an analog joystick.

To counter this, I feel the need to mention the game Zoo Keeper. The game would be painfully tedious to play without the touch screen. In fact, the touch screen allows for more complexity in the game since its speed and accuracy allow for quick combinations. As an interface for this game, the touch screen surpasses even mouse control (which you can try using the free flash version of the game) making it by far the control method of choice. As for the argument of the stylus being a "concious" or "invasive" control, I recommend spending 15 minutes with this game. You will see how this becomes a completely transparent control method, one that is not only reserved for buttons. (I'm still confused as to why the author seems to have forgotten how every new button and control added to a joystick requires a learning period - give even a simple 2-button controller to a non-gamer and they will definitely hunt and peck, knowing full well that they must push a button to activiate something on the screen. It only becomes transparent with time).

You might say that my Zoo Keeper example is the only example of a valid use of the touch screen so far. But that is partly my point. The experimentation period will eventually end and the valid uses of the touch screen will be known and implemented by developers, making the touch-screen another control method option which will add a new layer of interaction and accessibility to gaming.

I must also add that I have watched a number of non-gamers quickly learn to interact with several DS games (and continue to play them, sometimes for hours). I have also obeserved several very-casual gamers play more often than they did ever before. Witnessing this, it is impossible to deny the effectiveness of the touch screen when applied to the right game the right way.

So, my feeling is that we should give it some time before we judge it. And if it's not the interface for you, then move on.

TheZooKeeper
(Keeper of the Zoo)

[KDR_11k]

Jep, an analog stick is relative control (controls the speed of movement, holding it in one position results in a contiuous motion), a touchscreen is absolute control (controls the movement directly, holding it results in no motion). Additionally, a touchscreen is non-continuous, meaning you can move from one point to another without touching the ones in between. You'd need an A-stick and a button for this to work since the stick alone can't determine whether you really want to touch this or just move past. Traditional PC games that are meant for the mouse will be much more workable on the DS. Additionally, hitting something with the tip of the pen is a lot easier since it's an everyday life action unlike pressing a button or moving a stick to do something (unless your work involves heavy machinery). Why are wheel controllers so popular for racing games? Because they replace an abstract motion with one your reflexes already know. Letting my parents play Burnout 2 was a desaster because they couldn't get used to driving with a stick.

[SgtShiversBen]

I've said this before, and I'll say it again.  The touch screen is a new form of gaming and it IS bring out new gamers.  My girlfriend, for example, can't get enough of Mario 64 DS.  And she's playing the actual game.  She plays that thing for hours at a time.  Then me and her duke it out on the minigames in which I get my ass trounced.  This is a good thing when compared to Smash Bros. I kill her 15 times and she kills me once.  This allows people to realize that they are good at games rather than being hindered because they havne't been playing for the past 18 years.  She loves the fact that I can't even come close to her Level 30 score in Puzzle Panic but it makes me want to beat her.  If games keep on doing this, then Nintendo has done what they wanted with their little experimental brick.  Now when the next Game Boy comes out, her ass will be MINE!

[KDR_11k]

Now when the next Game Boy comes out, her ass will be MINE!

Ah, so you're playing for the privilege of backdoor entry?

[TheZooKeeper]

Quote
Originally posted by: SgtShiversBen
Then me and her duke it out on the minigames in which I get my ass trounced.

Good to know I'm not alone.

[SgtShiversBen]

Hey, never enter the backdoor without asking, it's just rude.  Even more so uncomfortable than the back of a Volkswagon.  TheZooKeeper, it's sad isn't it.  Playing games for so long, then to get whupped by someone who's younger than me, a girl, no videogame experience, and hasn't ever had a palm pilot.  The whole world (gaming world) is against me.

[PaLaDiN]

I need to start losing to girls more often... playing together just makes them hate me for a while.

[Hostile Creation]

"Even more so uncomfortable than the back of a Volkswagon."

Mm, Mallrats.