Topic: Episode 419: Lincoln Loggo

[Jonnyboy117]

The foursome is back together with loads of cool games and a sprawling edition of Listener Mail!

http://www.nintendoworldreport.com/rfn/39722/episode-419-lincoln-loggo

Hooray, Jon Lindemann is back, and he's got a lot to say! But first, we've got your New Business, and it's a great crop of games this week. Gui opens with Kirby and the Rainbow Curse, which leads to a long dissection of the game's co-op multiplayer. That gives Jon time to prepare for Monster Hunter 4 Ultimate, which he thinks is by far the best game to introduce new players to this uninviting series. James continues his Sony adventures with the Zelda-inspired Ico and Shadow of the Colossus, while Jonny finally gets to blast through Star Fox 64 3D (thanks, Club Nintendo!).

In the Listener Mail segment, we finally get to open up the completionist topic, AND WE AREN'T STOPPING UNTIL IT'S 100% FINISHED. We also pick out the best Donkey Kong Country/Land games from the recent Virtual Console dumping, and we consider the resurgence of Abraham Lincoln as a video game hero. (So, real talk, there's no way we could cover every angle of the first discussion, and we would love to hear your thoughts and suggestions for how to revisit the topic. Please send in your feedback on completing games or anything else from the world of video games!)

RetroActive is officially on for next episode, and by the time you read this, there's only a couple of days at most to get in your thoughts about Pokemon: The Trading Card Game. Hit up that official forum thread ASAP if you want a chance to be heard on the podcast! Oh hey, and you might also want to hear Jonny talk about movies or music with cool people on Crosstawk's Box Office Poison or Discover Music Project, respectively.

[K-S-O]

I thought I heard James make a JoJo reference during the Kirby discussion.

[fred13]

I have to say I agree with Jon on Monster Hunter 4 being a decent entry point. I tried getting into Monster Hunter Tri and it never happened. But I found Monster Hunter 4 on sale for $32 plus I got a free $10 gift card so I decided to take a gamble (worst case scenario it didn't work and I figured if I could sell them for $22 then it wasn't much of a loss) anyway I bought 2 figuring it'd be more fun to play with my wife. Not only do I enjoy it, but my wife also enjoys it.

[lolmonade]

James continues his Sony adventures with the Zelda-inspired Ico and Shadow of the Colossus

should read
 

James continues his Sonic adventures with the awfulness-inspired Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric

I am dissapoint.
 

[pokepal148]

James continues his Sony adventures with the Zelda-inspired Ico and Shadow of the Colossus

should read
 

James continues his Sonic adventures with the awfulness-inspired Sonic Boom: Rise of Lyric

I am dissapoint.
 

We need to send him a copy of Sonic 06 to complete the package. We gotta go for 100% completion after all.

[fred13]

YES, the Donkey Kong Land games are different from the Country games. They are also very fun. DCL 1 uses the same 2 characters as DKC 1. DKL 2 uses the same 2 Characters as DKC 2. DKL 3 uses the same 2 characters as DKC 3, but they are very different games and at only $4 each it's a steal.


Gui says Donkey Kong Land 1 is a great game, but to me 2 and 3 are better so that first night I downloaded Land 3, when I'm ready I'll get 2 next and eventually if I'm still up to it and "having fun" (referring back to Johnny's OCD rant) I'll buy and play Donkey Kong Land 1.


I'm anxious to see if my memories of these 6 games being so incredible is just nostalgia or if I still find them fun.

[Crimm]

I thought I heard James make a JoJo reference during the Kirby discussion.

[azeke]

On achievements:
There are more or less three kinds of achievements:

1. OCD where you have to get all the trinkets and all doohikeys, including achievements

2. Tracking your progress through the game, as in "beat level 1", "beat level 2" and so on (that's like half of all achievements in Ubisoft games). I personally find them pointless, because it's more or less amounts to time you spend on a game and where's the merit in just time spent?

and yes --

3. Virtual e-peen bragging reason should NOT be discarded only because it sounds childish. I worked for this dammit -- why can't i show off the fruit of my work (or play in this case)? When i go above and beyond normal playthrough i want to see that i will receive some, any kind of manifestation of my efforts. Not because i am arrogant (though there is a bit of a pride in that too), but because i want to konw that at any time i can go back and look at it and remember the times i did that or this.

I think it's similar to Scrooge McDuck:

Scrooge bathes in his money not only because he has money fetish (though there is some of that too), but because he remembers the story behind every single penny and how he earned it.

Platinum-system on Playstation systems caters to OCD reasoning, because the system implies that you can and SHOULD get all achievements to reach Platinum. I think it's a mistake because this devalues achievements into completionist items. Some achievements are supposed to be hard, even impossible. And it's completely okay.

Neither Xbox and Steam make such a big deal around getting all possible achievements.

I think MiiVerse does a good job of catering to point 3, because if game has some kind of in-game achievement or rankings tracker you can make a screenshot out of it to save it, along with some comments.

Some of the achievements on Steam has gone bad too, TF2 in particular is rife with special servers that will help you to get all achievements and where you can spend time "idling" doing nothing (TF2 rewards player for time played with random drops, so some people enter idling servers and leave computer on for hours to get more hats).

[broodwars]

Platinum-system on Playstation systems caters to OCD reasoning, because the system implies that you can and SHOULD get all achievements to reach Platinum. I think it's a mistake because this devalues achievements into completionist items. Some achievements are supposed to be hard, even impossible. And it's completely okay.

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. There's no disputing that the trophy system appeals to the OCD mindset, but there have been notable games in my past such as Bioshock & Final Fantasy X HD where having to get all those trophies also forced me to explore new depths and strategies I otherwise never would have used. It led to a greater appreciation of those games than I otherwise would have had, without forcing the developers to impair the enjoyment of people not seeking that level of complexity/challenge.

But hey...what would I know of the PlayStation trophy system... 

Neither Xbox and Steam make such a big deal around getting all possible achievements.

No, their focus is on quantity over quality, where those who care about achievements play as many shitty games as possible to fill out their Gamerscore because all achievements are boiled down to a generic numerical score.

[azeke]

I'm going to have to disagree with you on this. There's no disputing that the trophy system appeals to the OCD mindset, but there have been notable games in my past such as Bioshock & Final Fantasy X HD where having to get all those trophies also forced me to explore new depths and strategies I otherwise never would have used. It led to a greater appreciation of those games than I otherwise would have had, without forcing the developers to impair the enjoyment of people not seeking that level of complexity/challenge.

This works just fine without encouraging people to get ALL achievements.

In fact this works EVEN better without Platinum system, because then you can create achievements that are supposed to be nearly impossible and unattainable.

No, their focus is on quantity over quality, where those who care about achievements play as many shitty games as possible to fill out their Gamerscore because all achievements are boiled down to a generic numerical score.

?


Steam has no "gamerscore" system.

[broodwars]

?
Steam has no "gamerscore" system.

I was referring to phenomena on the 360 such as the massive rentals of Avatar: The Last Airbender because you could get all the achievement points in that game in 15 minutes. Steam just happened to be in the same sentence.

[gojira]

I'm not saying Jonny is wrong, but I don't know if I'd take the bet that Starfox 64 3D has pop-in while the original doesn't.  I mean we are talking about a N64 game here.

[Jonnyboy117]

Maybe I'll boot it up on VC to check. It certainly caught me by surprise on 3DS and triggered a "that ain't right" reaction.

[nitrama]

Long time listener first time user, I wanted to share my claim to achievements. Before any knowledge of challenges I came up with my own challenge. Beat Mega Man 2 without losing a life.  After long play-through from start to finish I manage to do the undoable. No proof of this awesome achievement except that I know I managed it. It can be done. Thank you for making me remember this great feat.

[ClexYoshi]

Long time listener first time user, I wanted to share my claim to achievements. Before any knowledge of challenges I came up with my own challenge. Beat Mega Man 2 without losing a life.  After long play-through from start to finish I manage to do the undoable. No proof of this awesome achievement except that I know I managed it. It can be done. Thank you for making me remember this great feat.

They actually put that into Mega Man 9's self-contained achievements (Immortal), along with Mr. Perfect (Finish the game without taking any damage)

I've actually done immortal runs of Mega Man 5 and 6. Mega Man 2 I've gotten to like... Wily 3 doing it. made a goof-up falling down the big corridor of spikes before the guts dozer.

[azeke]

Long time listener first time user, I wanted to share my claim to achievements. Before any knowledge of challenges I came up with my own challenge. Beat Mega Man 2 without losing a life.  After long play-through from start to finish I manage to do the undoable. No proof of this awesome achievement except that I know I managed it. It can be done. Thank you for making me remember this great feat.

Retroachivements kinda sorta does this.
I am looking at the page for Mega-Man 2 and there doesn't seem to be an achievement for beating the game in one life.
I personally used RA to play first Mega-Man game, so i used 3DS for "training" and then did it on raNES.