Topic: Mafia XXIX: "It's the Great Pumpkin (Mafia), Charlie Brown" Day 4

[BeautifulShy]

Hey, I get what you're saying, Thatguy. And don't get me wrong, I agree with most of what you are saying. It's just that this is Decoyman's first hosting and I don't want to see him get attacked to much. A first game hardly ever goes smoothly. The Mafia Hall of Fame will attest to that. Most of the games by first time hosts often have some kind of flaw.

But I do want to mention a couple last things. First, telling me your roles wasn't neccessarily a bad thing. This game I wanted to keep the townie roles around as long as possible and as a means of cover since I felt it would help my case of innocence with only townies dying while the roles lived.

Second, I wouldn't have hit Toruresu if he had betrayed us. After all, it would only take Sally's death to make him mafia so maybe the townies would hit Sally first by mistake. If things went south, I'd still want to hold out hope that maybe we could still get that extra mafia member and the number we would need to win. I'd want to take him out for not taking the offer but he could still be made to join unwillingly. You can't let emotion cloud rational thinking.

That is what happened last game to me I was so mad that I couldn't see that decoyman was mafia.

[that Baby guy]

Oh, no, it was a fun game, I'm not meaning to bash Decoyman at all.  It would have been an amazing game with a few minor changes.  The fundamentals were strong, especially, an interesting story every day was a big plus.  The rules were well fleshed out, and any question asked had a pre-determined answer.

To be honest, the cause of the problem was the game before.  From most players experience, being on the mafia causes a little bit of a paranoia, and I think feeling that paranoia, Decoyman overcompensated, believing that the previous game was less balanced than it seemed, just because he felt close to losing for a majority of the game.

Like I said, it was a great game, I just have an easier time talking about the bad stuff than the good.  I'm just glad he kept a consistent story running through the whole thing, something I didn't manage when I did it.  That's the real hard part.

[BeautifulShy]

Yeah I liked that he had a story up each day in the thread. I liked the way he wrote it.  I am glad that the host followed my suggestion.

[GoldenPhoenix]

My opinion of this game:

1. Townies: We lost so it was rigged 
2. I won so it is the best 

[vudu]

It's just that this is Decoyman's first hosting and I don't want to see him get attacked to much. A first game hardly ever goes smoothly. The Mafia Hall of Fame will attest to that. Most of the games by first time hosts often have some kind of flaw.

Yes, and we are trying to help decoyman by explaining to him the flaws of his game so he can improve next time.  There's nothing wrong with a little constructive criticism.

The fact of the matter is, the game was stacked towards the mafia.  I said this waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the sign-up thread.  Sure, there was a path for a townie victory after RAB died, but it would have required a "perfect" game, and the chances of that happening are slim.

Also, LOL at Stevey being good at the game and Toruresu being a "veteran player".  I think this is only his third or fourth mafia game, and I don't recall a time when he was ever given the opportunity to have a big impact on the game before now.

[Spak-Spang]

So when do we get the Super Special Mafia Hawtness XXX signup?

Stevey's still doing that right?

And I think since this is the 30 mafia, if you don't signup you get banned from the funhouse thread.

[Spak-Spang]

Actually Decoyman and I both saw a path to victory for the townies to win late after day 3s successful hit of a mafia member. 

Maxi was gone, and the townies could have won.  I think the roles were balanced.  I just don't think the special rules were balanced well.  Actually let me take that back...once the Great Pumpkin was out of the game, the rules and roles were balanced...and that the only reason the townies lost was because of the special rule for a townie to become mafia.  That member  betrayed the team (although it was completely in his right to do so, and I have no complaint about his actions...anymore.)  So once that happened the townies couldn't win...but before that happened the townies knew 2 mafia members definitely...and all that had to happen was voting them out in the correct order. 

[vudu]

the only reason the townies lost was because of the special rule for a townie to become mafia.  That member  betrayed the team (although it was completely in his right to do so, and I have no complaint about his actions...anymore.)

You do realize that Toruresu still lost the game, right?  Sally was still alive at the end of the game so Toruresu didn't join the mafia.  He lost the game with the townies.  All he succeeded in doing was securing a loss for himself and his teammates.

[Spak-Spang]

Vudu:  The game actually didn't end properly.

Yes, the game is over, but ONLY because Decoyman knew how the rest of the game played out.  Technically, there are still more townies than mafia and therefore days 5, and possibly 6 needed to occur.

The game ended on the assumption that it was a foregone conclusion on how the townies and the mafia would have reacted.  which is a false premise.

So technically Toruresu won, with the mafia.

However, I would like to point out, that I got in trouble from everyone for not playing the townie role correctly of routing for the townies.  technically Toruresu should have acted as a townie up until the last role was killed for him to switch. 

I know my statement is like the pot calling the kettle black, but it is true...the only difference is that Toruresu actually had the ability/chance to switch to the mafia.  If everything played exactly right. 

Well, guess what it probably wouldn't have...because if you would have sided with the townies, Khush would most likely been voted out first or second depending on the GP bomber situation...after that day, it would have been Khush, and still a female player alive. 

[BeautifulShy]

I have a question. When is the next game starting? If it starts before the 5th then I request that on the 5th we have a break that day. So people can play in the Wi-fi tournement that day.I think after this week would be good for people.

[Toruresu]

Well Ive been bashed enough times already

1. I play this and every other game to have fun, not to win. But to be honest, I have more fun when I win

2. The townie alliance had NOTHING. They learned I had a role because I went forward with thatguy thinking that, if he was Mafia, he already knew, because all the mafia knew of me and if he was a townie, he'd hook me up with the townie alliance.

3. He did hooked me up with Vudu, who sent me ONE msg, during the whole game (compared to the numerous msgs Khush and Maxi sent me), that ended in "What should we do?". The so called townie alliance did not exist, or they left me out of the loop.

4. I thought of every possible scenario in my head, and since I am NOT a "veteran mafia player" (I've played like 4, but its been the last 2 games that I've been able to be into it), I didn't see any way for me/us townies to win it, except if we played a PERFECT game. Since I believed there was no townie alliance so to speak and playing a perfect game was a real longshot, I did what I had to do to win.

5. Before accepting Khush's offer, I talked to the host of the game, and specifically asked if it was considered cheating for me to play as a mafia, even though i was still a townie. He said it wasn't, and that I should play however I felt like.

6. Khush didn't just say "Hey, join us" and I said "Oh heck yeah!". It took him effort, lots of PMs and explanations that I needed, so I could make sure it wasn't all a lie just to make them win.

7. On my side, it took a lot of thinking. I'm not accustomed to be the bad guy, EVER. This decision even gave me a moral dilemma.

8. I apologize if I broke the game, I apologize if you feel betrayed, Vudu, Stevey and the rest of the townies. But I do not apologize for playing the game to win.

9. When is the next Mafia game?

[GoldenPhoenix]

I think people take mafia way to seriously. When you lose a game of mafia it doesn't mean your lollipop was stolen!

[vudu]

AND NEVER FOLLOW VUDU! NEVER!

Khush would be dead if it was for you pussying out (that's two game you cost us with your shitty leadership)

I'm sorry, but when did I become the king of the townies?  If you've had a better plan of attack I sure haven't heard it.  KILL KHUSH isn't exactly a well thought-out plan.  If there's anything going on in that brain of yours you sure don't share it with the rest of us.

3. He did hooked me up with Vudu, who sent me ONE msg, during the whole game (compared to the numerous msgs Khush and Maxi sent me), that ended in "What should we do?".

Way not to mention the four paragraphs preceding the "what should we do" that explained my plan.    As I said, I'm not the self-appointed leader.  Democracy rules.  I sent you and Insanolord what I thought we should do.  But I'm certainly not going to order you what to do.  I assume you're old enough to think for yourself.  When neither of you respond to my single PM (and Insanolord doesn't even bother to show up to vote) it's not my fault when things fall apart.  Have the decency to admit some fault.

[Toruresu]

Haha Vudu.

Im not saying its your fault bro. Im saying the townie alliance was nonexistant, and you confirmed it for me

Admit some fault to what? Winning the game?

I'm kidding, I know what you mean. But, as things were, and since 
1. thatguy pointed me to you (or you to me)
2. you took the iniciative to send me a msg
3. knew who the other townies with roles were (at least one, Insanolord)

I assumed you were going to lead. It's not a matter of democracy, but a matter of timing and the information you had (unless you didn't, then I'd understand).

[Plugabugz]

I would like to shout out thatguy. I wasn't playing (and noted that in the signup thread) yet he still PM'ed me. 10 points for not missing an opportunity

[Khushrenada]

the only reason the townies lost was because of the special rule for a townie to become mafia.  That member  betrayed the team (although it was completely in his right to do so, and I have no complaint about his actions...anymore.)

You do realize that Toruresu still lost the game, right?  Sally was still alive at the end of the game so Toruresu didn't join the mafia.  He lost the game with the townies.  All he succeeded in doing was securing a loss for himself and his teammates.

And that bugs me the most. I begged and pleaded with Decoyman to put up the Day 5 thread, even for a few minutes just to show that everything was legal in the end.

The plan for Day 5 was to vote out DrewMG. Toruresu was going to switch stevey's vote from me, presumably, to DrewMG and DrewMG would block Vudu while also voting himself out. We controlled the vote and it showed Toru everything was on the up and up and that Sally would die for him to take her place. I hit Nickmitch and game over. But Decoyman just basically confirmed that was the plan and decided to just call the game now and write all the events in a jumbo story. C'est la vie.


I have no problem with constructive criticism either. I also warned Decoyman about balance issues. I told him that if he is going to have a 5 person mafia, he should get at least 22-24 people signed up. Let's take the great pumpkin out of the game since in a way, it was never a factor.

I think the other thing that still tipped the advantage over to the mafia was the suicide bomber on our side. This was another thing I warned him about. If the bomber didn't exist and was just a regular mafia goon, then the townies defintely would have had a good chance at winning. There was only way to stop the bomber safely and that was the vigilante and you just can't rely on that person lasting long enough to finally find the correct person and get the hit. So, I think Decoyman is well aware of what can be done for future games. He went his way with this game and now he has a better understanding for future games.

Still a good host.

I don't know why we have to rip players after the game. I'm getting sick of the Vudu criticism. Vudu's a better player than 90% of the people who have played this game. The only reason people think he should have been the leader is that he had the chance to address the townies everyday with his message and organize them and he didn't. Sure, he said vote Nickmitch but that was more a trap than an actual suggestion. But for the townies left out of the loop, it just confuses them. Maybe Vudu isn't use to leading a townie alliance but how many players can even form a townie alliance?

As for stevey, people often marginalize him but I've worked in an alliance with him before and as long as you let him know what is going, he does pretty good and helps out a lot. I wouldn't call him a leader either but he can definitely contribute if you give him the chance. That's why I left him alive. I knew that everyday he would vote for me and with Toru's power, I could change that vote to however else I wanted thus making stevey work for me. I didn't realize Toru could change anyone's vote even if they didn't cast a vote.

Personally, I wouldn't start another game too soon. This game came pretty quick after the last game. I say, give it a breather and let people cool down after this last game. Wait a week and then post a sign-up for the next game for a week and go for there. So, the game should start around Nov. 17. That will most likely be our last game of the year as well I would think.

[vudu]

Admit some fault to what? Winning the game?

You lost.  I don't care what you or Khush says.  The game ended on day 4 because there was no chance of a townie victory.  At the time the game was called you were a townie.  You lost with the townies.

[stevey]

As far as stevey goes, sometimes he plays well, sometimes he doesn't.

I don't try to play the same way in every mafia game. The benefits? How many times have khush, thatguy, spank, vudu, and rab died on day 1? How many time have I died on day 1? (Not counting counter vendetta bandwagons, and Zach's failure of a mafia game .....)

The whole game, he was against Khush because it's what he does, he suspects Khush until there isn't a reason to suspect Khush, when Khush is dead.  That's not a good way to play the game. 

If you look back at day 3, I stop the vendetta votes and sided with Khush for a while (and voted out a mafia member). + you're a hypocrite

Well, I would have to say, you can never trust Khushrenada.  And that 18 Days guy is almost always mafia.  Either one of them would be pretty safe bets.

The fact was, Khush was talking to everyone, but making no progress this game, as far as new friends, new people to work with, or anything like that.  That's what set things off, and why I absolutely believed Toruresu's message, and also why it was all more important to tell Khush my role, to feign belief that he was a good guy.

Whatever the deal is, never trust Khushrenada.

[that Baby guy]

Yeah, those are jokes for me.  In my first games, Khush and I would almost always lead an alliance to victory.

Really, though, stevey, if you'd at least respond a little to people, it wouldn't be a problem.  As it stands, though, you start voting Khush, and don't contribute much until someone else figures something out for you, first.  After that point, you're right, you do play the game very well.  It's just reaching that point can be frustrating on my end.

Anyways, again, you all should back off Toruresu.  He made the right choice.  He made the best choice, and under the rules of this game, he would win.  There's nothing wrong with that.  I don't think you should hold it against him, not in the game, not in any way.  This isn't two games ago.  That's in the past, and most have relatively forgotten that, anyways.

The game was fun.  People have been interested.  It wasn't perfectly balanced, that's been established, but I had a great time playing it.  I think most other players did too. 

The last bit, Toruresu, is that no matter what, on the last day, the mafia's plan would, no matter what, be much more solid than the townie's plan.  There just weren't any great options for the townies to take at that point, and the townies, other than you, didn't know the roles the other players had for certain.  We'll be fair in saying that Vudu, nor any other townie aside from you, could not have formed a solid plan, that's why you didn't hear from him.  I don't blame you at all for choosing to side with the townies, but you were the one in the best position to make a plan for them, so please don't blame Vudu, unless you sent him the same list that Khush sent you on that last day.  That's the honest truth.

Regardless, the game is over.  Keep this game to itself, and please, if anything, don't carry over grudges to the next one.  It makes this messier and more difficult, for example, look at the vicious votes at NickMitch just because he fooled you all in the game before.  That's not a good way to go, after all, so much attention was focused on him this game, most players overlooked a lot of the actual mafia members!

[Spak-Spang]

I think I have the record for dying the most on day 1...but that isn't fair, because the first 4 or 5 games I played in a row I died first day...because I wasn't given a chance. 

It was like a running gag.

[that Baby guy]

Actually, I saw that, looking through the big 'ol mafia thread.  It made me doubt killing you on Day 1 just because...

Then I did anyways, since I thought it would be unpredictable.  At least you died on Day 1 and still won, eh?  Eh?