Author Topic: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."  (Read 19109 times)

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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #25 on: July 31, 2009, 12:50:07 PM »
We have no data on second month sales for The Conduit so we can't really say much about it. If it falls flat I suspect that the lame SP mode would have killed the word of mouth chances it may have had, many people don't go online so they'd only get SP, not even local MP with friends. Local MP would'vbe taken the focus away from the SP for offline gamers and simultaneously lead to cross-pollination of Wii gamers.

Again I remind everyone that Red Steel sold a million, World at War sold 500k (after a disappointing first month) and WiiWare FPSes shoot high up on the charts pretty quickly (actually not THAT quickly, hyped hardcore franchises shoot up faster but tend to drop back down much faster too while the FPSes had a lot of staying power outside of Japan).

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #26 on: July 31, 2009, 01:08:08 PM »
Tanatoes, it's been a couple years since publishers/devs were struck by Wii's success in 2006/2007, and it's only this year that we're beginning to see some of the big-$ adventures from major publishers come out, and Nintendo using up its Mario/Zelda/Metroid GameCube sequels so early-on highlights the 2008 "gap."  (Kart and Brawl covers a different sector:  interweb multiplayer)

It's just a plain fact that outside Nintendo, companies simply did not commit to Wii, which is why there's "nothing there."

The notable few that did so far include the likes of small Japanese makers that have put out "big" games relative to their own typical output, things like Tenchu4 (Acquire), Arc Rise Fantasia (Marvelous), and maybe Fragile (Namco 5th string).  Sega's original matoor attempts can also fall under this category too.

The major "proceed-with-caution" commitments from actual Big Game Makers are only starting to show up this year.  Monster Hunter (Capcom), Silent Hill (Konami), FF Crystal Bearers (Square), and maybe Cursed Mountain (Deep Silver, if they really are dedicating talent and care to the project).

The Wii's life-to-date has been massive waves of unbalanced releases.  I'm in a similar boat to you where I'll pickup games month to month without hesitation, being more time-strapped than cash-strapped.  I have an arcade-like interest in acquiring and trying all these medium-project "experimental" Wii games (no, not the shovelware) for the sake of checking out different Wii Remote ideas and building a library with a wide variety of arcadey play styles.  I don't regret passing up a lot of solid "play-it-safe" games that would be open to me by being a multi-platipus owner, cuz they look like improved versions of what I passed up last generation.

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Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #27 on: July 31, 2009, 01:23:51 PM »
Quote
Yet to be fair, it's not really Nintendo's fault these games aren't selling. It's either: a) our fault because we bitch about the lack of hardcore games yet WE DON'T BUY THEM. b) 3rd Excuse Makers don't advertise them enough. c) Entertainment value and replayability. Conduit is good for an FPS... it's just so genetic, and Madworld entertains for only six hours.

You know the Wii is a great console when the company who makes it is just as confused as we are. I love you so much, Nintendo. :3

To be fair it really is Nintendo’s fault.  I love the Wii, but I can see it for what it is.  It has great Nintendo Hardcore games.  It has fun casual multiplayer games, and it has some good quality B type games (Madworld, Conduit). 

The problem started with the SNES.  Nintendo was on top of the world.  And because of this they were able to stick to very basic business principles.  Everything that we do makes us money(usually lots).  I’m not complaining, good businesses make money and they rake in a lot of my money.  But the problem is, Microsoft and Sony play differently.  They release consoles with features that far outstrip their price point (whether you want the features or not) and they are willing to pay $$ to get AAA games because they want their systems to be the defacto hardcore game system. 

Developers were forced to deal with Nintendo with the SNES because it dominated the market.  Then came the N64, and the costs associated to deal with Nintendo went through the roof.  Developers came to Nintendo and said we’ll make an N64 game if you will help us out.  And Nintendo said don’t let the door hit you on the way out.  So they walked over to Sony (and then Microsoft) because the others were more than willing to do things to help developers get more sales and develop better games.  Nintendo for their part thought they could fill the void, but 3d games takes eons longer than 2d games do for development.  So us Nintendo fans started getting used to game droughts.

Then Sony domination started.  Almost of the quality games (other than Nintendo and a couple of third parties) were home to the Playstation.  Well, diehard Nintendo fans will most certainly have a Nintendo brand console, but most hardcore players either became Sony fans or And fans (owners of a Nintendo and a Sony or eventually Microsoft console). 

These are the hardcore fans you see in today’s market.  I’m not doubting that they own a Wii, but I’d be surprised if they own only a Wii.  So then what comes up is where do the big players with AAA games put their games.  This is what runs through their head.

1.   The hardcore market is probably greater with x360 and PS3.  As most Wii hardcore owners probably own one of those, and the self declared hardest hardcore wouldn’t own a Wii(image issues and all). 
2.   Sony and Microsoft will probably give us a discount on licensing fees to offset the costs (Nintendo won’t because that’s uncharacteristic of them) and we can charge 20% more than on the Nintendo console to offset the higher developmental costs associated with an HD game. 
3.   If we just develop for all consoles the Wii game sales will suffer because: 
a.   We don’t really have the resources to develop two engines at once (generally an xbox to PS port or vice versa would cost less than rebuilding the engine for the Wii.)  So if we go the 3 game route, the Wii version is going to look pitiful and have poor physics.
b.    The hardcore don’t want the Wii version.  Graphics matter to hardcore fans.  If controls were the same, hardcore would pick up the game with better graphics (budgets aside).  And maybe you can blame this on the 3rd parties but Wii-mote is not accurate enough for most games.  Anything that uses IR (FPS) is the exception but waggle for a serious competition falls short because it is not accurate enough. 

I know I’ll get ragged on for this, but I’m a Madden fan.  So naturally I tried out the Wii version.  I may even try out the 2010 version because it has IR passing and uses mostly button pushes.  But the first versions of Madden sucked because quite frankly there was no classic control option.  An example, I’m Peyton Manning driving down against the Titans looking to seal up the AFC Championship game.  I see Marvin Harrison streaking a post across the middle.  I go to throw… wait, I go to throw… wait, now I’m sacked, oh I fumbled, oh they are scoring a TD to put the game away.  But I’m sure that happens to Peyton all the time.  Going down an important stretch of the game and the wii-mote malfunctions changing everything.

So in conclusion, no AAA developer is going to put their best stuff on Wii.  The only way it would sell is with an exclusive so the hardcore players (which probably have all systems or at least a subset) will have to buy the Wii version.  They know Sony and Microsoft will help them out but Nintendo won’t help them out even for an exclusive.  So some of the extra development costs will be offset in choosing Sony/Microsoft.  AAA games don’t start will 100 million dollar budgets, they start as good concept B games.  Those are the games the Wii will continue to get because you can make a Wii game cheaper and the goal is to have the hardcore purchase it because it is Wii only and they are interested and hope it catches with the casual crowd which the Wii maintains. 

I’m not saying Nintendo should just go throwing money everywhere, but Capcom (a known AAA developer some opinions aside) could have easily developed SF IV or RE5 or DMC 4 or on and on, but Nintendo hasn’t developed the relationship and they certainly haven’t cultivated that market on their own machine.  To cultivate it would take time.  We saw them almost do it when they bought Silicon Knights but again $ spoke to Nintendo with low sales and they decided to sell Silicon Knights to focus on what they knew instead of trying to develop that market.   

Monster Hunter is an exception for two reasons.  A:  The main customer base is Japan and Nintendo is killing in Japan.  And 2, the gameplay is much like Pokémon which means, that Nintendo has inadvertently created an audience for this game. 

Silent Hill is tossing us a bone like Remake.  It’ll probably be good.  But it’s been remade so many times for PS/PSP that they really have no where else to take the series but to hope that they can reach a new audience with the Wii. 

Offline SixthAngel

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #28 on: July 31, 2009, 01:30:16 PM »
You put out B games you get B sales.  These games budgets are probably almost overtaken by Halo's advertising budget.  The real kicker is that if The Conduit sold ten bazillion we wouldn't be getting big budget fps.  Instead we would keep getting low budget fps because they would know that is enough to sell tons of copies.

I find it interesting that the "hardcore" games have essentially become pc games.  Bioshock, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, Halo, Gears of War.  These are all games developed by pc devs who jumped to the xbox usually because the xbox is essentilally a pc, making ports and development very easy and very familiar.
That is one of several reasons why the Wii isn't getting these "hardcore" games, many are basically made by pc developers.

That is why the Conduit was a big deal.  It is a fps which is the pc's and xbox's biggest type of game (and most "hardcore").  Why is it somehow considered the biggest and most important genre despite being small on the most popular console last generation the ps2?

A lot of the arguments I even see for the hd aka "hardcore" consoles seem to be the old pc standby arguments for higher resolution.  Console owners in the past laughed at this argument because they didn't care.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 01:38:25 PM by SixthAngel »

Offline SixthAngel

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #29 on: July 31, 2009, 01:37:08 PM »
These are the hardcore fans you see in today’s market.  I’m not doubting that they own a Wii, but I’d be surprised if they own only a Wii.  So then what comes up is where do the big players with AAA games put their games.  This is what runs through their head.

1.   The hardcore market is probably greater with x360 and PS3.  As most Wii hardcore owners probably own one of those, and the self declared hardest hardcore wouldn’t own a Wii(image issues and all). 

So in conclusion, no AAA developer is going to put their best stuff on Wii.  The only way it would sell is with an exclusive so the hardcore players (which probably have all systems or at least a subset) will have to buy the Wii version.

You seriously overestimate the number of people who own multiple consoles.  You act like there are millions of them who are actually responsible for games getting huge sales or small sales.  There aren't that many.
(double post but at least its a different topic then my previous)
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 01:44:25 PM by SixthAngel »

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #30 on: July 31, 2009, 01:53:30 PM »
A lot of the arguments I even see for the hd aka "hardcore" consoles seem to be the old pc standby arguments for higher resolution.  Console owners in the past laughed at this argument because they didn't care.

Not because they didn't care, but because
1.  TV's were typically much larger in size (so they didn't have to sit 1 ft from the PC monitor.)
2.  TV's are generally in the family room where most people spend most of their time and their is room for entertaining/friends. 
3.  In the past almost nobody had a TV cabable of high resolutions. 
4.  PC's don't have the best controllers.

Console owners laughed because they were the "cool kids".  Yeah, go with your high res game sitting right by the screen by yourself with the no name controller.  Most people want higher resolution.  Question is whether they think it is worth the price. 

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #31 on: July 31, 2009, 02:14:49 PM »
These are the hardcore fans you see in today’s market.  I’m not doubting that they own a Wii, but I’d be surprised if they own only a Wii.  So then what comes up is where do the big players with AAA games put their games.  This is what runs through their head.

1.   The hardcore market is probably greater with x360 and PS3.  As most Wii hardcore owners probably own one of those, and the self declared hardest hardcore wouldn’t own a Wii(image issues and all). 

So in conclusion, no AAA developer is going to put their best stuff on Wii.  The only way it would sell is with an exclusive so the hardcore players (which probably have all systems or at least a subset) will have to buy the Wii version.

You seriously overestimate the number of people who own multiple consoles.  You act like there are millions of them who are actually responsible for games getting huge sales or small sales.  There aren't that many.
(double post but at least its a different topic then my previous)

It's really unprovable, but yes, I would believe that the # of people that owns at least 2 consoles in somewhere in the millions. 

My math is approximately 300 million people in the US.  Average household size of 2.6 means about 115 million households. 

According to VGChartz (I know this will get discounted)  there are about 24 million Wiis, 18 million 360's, and 9 million PS3's sold.  Now if there were no duplicate purchases there would be a new console in 44.4% of all US homes.  I believe that is really high.  Additionally, if you look at where they say it ended, there were 50 M PS2's, 16 M xboxes, and 13 million GCs.  That would be 68.7% of all households is where we should end up.  Anyways I was focusing on hardcore users.  I consider those to be people that game >10 hrs a week and buy >10 games a year and I consider there to be less than 5 million of those people.  But if they spend that much time gaming and that much $ on gaming, I would think that yes, one console would not be enough for them.

Offline SixthAngel

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #32 on: July 31, 2009, 02:31:56 PM »
Most people want higher resolution.  Question is whether they think it is worth the price. 

Most people don't even know the 360 can even output hd.Only 30% even know about it.  That means less, probably far less actually use the feature.  How is that going to to be a good way to sell to new people when the current owners don't even know about it much less use it.

Most people don't give a **** about hd.

I don't want to get in a quoting war so I'm going to stop after this.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2009, 02:49:06 PM by SixthAngel »

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #33 on: July 31, 2009, 04:12:44 PM »
I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but if you had two tvs, same manufacturer, quality, cost, etc.  One is 1080p and the other is 480i, the consumer will purchase the 1080p one 100% of the time.  Most of the time, people are not willing to pay the premium associated with 1080p because 480i is good enough.  Not equal, not better. 

I found the article you specified.http://www.ask.com/bar?q=how+many+xbox+360+users+use+high+definition&page=1&qsrc=0&ab=0&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.1up.com%2Fdo%2FnewsStory%3FcId%3D3161833

The article is over two years old.  During that time the # of people with 360's went from about 6M to 18M.  Also, the # of people with an HDTV went from about 20% to somewhere in the 40-45% range.  http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/16014.cfm  You honestly would have trouble if you didn't want at least a 720p tv as my local Walmart has no SDTVs in stock.  So I believe that overall knowledge of HD and things HD has gone up. 

Also, I strongly question the validity of the poll.  The 360 target demographic is 13-25 years old.  Which means that for the 13-18 year olds, the poll probably polled the parents which will never use the device or maintain any knowledge of the device other than their kid wanted it.  For the 19-25 year olds, they probably don't have a land line which means they would have been excluded from the poll.  If 60% of people use xbox online (as indicated by Microsoft), I would think a similiar # of people use the HD capability of the machine.  Maybe that's high, but certainly at this time more than 30% of the people are using the HD status of the machine now. 

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #34 on: July 31, 2009, 07:05:21 PM »
The problem with the HD argument is that even though people continue to buy HDTV's and HD consoles, they are still hooking things up to the TV with regular composite cables most of the time. Most people don't notice the change in resolution until someone hooks it up right for them. THe main drae of the HDTV is the widescreen, the size of the TV and how slim it is in comparison to the TV they are upgrading from. HD is just a buzz word for widescreen for a lot of folks right now.

Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #35 on: July 31, 2009, 07:36:16 PM »
I would agree that most people do not appropriately use their HDTV correctly.  But I don't think it is as prevalent in people under 25 which is the target demographic for xbox360 and PS3.  So yeah, if the 40 year old father hooked up the 360, it may not be optimized, but the college age student struggling with technology?  I'm sure someone can bring up an example of one, but overall getting a 360 online is as complicated as hooking it up correctly to an HDTV.  The differing factor is if the individual actually has an HDTV or just online service.  Additionally, a 360 on a SDTV will look better than the best Wii games.  The 360 just has more power which means more happening on screen, better physics, better antilasing, more draw, etc. 

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #36 on: August 01, 2009, 01:39:59 AM »
But it does contradict the "most people want HD" claim.

Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #37 on: August 01, 2009, 02:39:54 AM »
But it does contradict the "most people want HD" claim.

That's the thing though. People DO want HD, just most people don't realize that HD is more than just a widescreen TV, 1080p is more than a number on the box, and HDMI is an actual cable that needs to be purchased and used.

Offline Plugabugz

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #38 on: August 01, 2009, 07:57:42 AM »
And in the current climate, 1080p means moneyhats that nobody wants to spend.

Offline Tanatoes

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #39 on: August 01, 2009, 09:46:58 AM »
I think the only argument I've seen so far that makes me want a HD setup is that it can be made compatible with polarized 3-D glasses.  I recently bought the DVD special edition for Coraline, which I saw in the theater in polarized 3-D, and was disappointed with how awful the red/green 3-D effects and picture were.  I would seem that the game of the new James Cameon Avatar movie is in 3-D but only to those who are using HDMI cables for their setup.  If this becomes a trend in gaming then I can EASILY see myself investing in a HD television, and even making the leap to blu-ray (which I've seen as largely superfluous until now.)

Until then 1080i and 720p are fine for me.  (My Wii in the livingroom isn't even set to widescreen, it's hooked to an old CRT I bought off a friend about 12 years ago via composite cables!)
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Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #40 on: August 01, 2009, 10:51:43 AM »
And in the current climate, 1080p means moneyhats that nobody wants to spend.

http://www.switched.com/2009/05/28/recession-not-hurting-hdtv-sales/

Apparently, not everyone shares your thoughts.  Obviously alot of people are hurting or scared, but alot of people are still spending $.  HDTVs are cheaper than ever, as well, after the anti-trust fines that most manufacturers got hit with last year.  $500-$600 will buy you a great 30-40 inch TV.  Not that $500 is cheap, but if you have been wanting a new TV or are now going to be spending alot more time at home, consumers haven't been shy to buy in.

Also, 720p is high def.  While certainly 1080p is better quality, most consumers depending on the size of their screen/distance from screen, would not notice as much as a difference as from 480i to 720p.  Another factor is few cable channels broadcast 1080p and only blu ray provides 1080p.  Most 360/PS3 games only come in 720p, with few coming in 1080p. 

I'm not a big fan of 3d television until they make it where I don't have to wear goggles period.  When they start pushing the 3d sets though, you'll probably see them start at $10k and work themselves down to more affordable levels years later.  So that tech is a ways off from mainstream.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 10:53:48 AM by smallsharkbigbite »

Offline Plugabugz

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #41 on: August 01, 2009, 12:01:50 PM »
Interesting! I think in america at least thats to do with the digital transition more than anything else.

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #42 on: August 01, 2009, 02:05:04 PM »
Of course TV sales (I don't think they'd sell SDTVs these days anyway) aren't impacted by the recession, what matters more is whether people actually base their gaming purchases on whether something is HD.

Offline BwrJim!

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #43 on: August 01, 2009, 06:33:19 PM »
ugh.. so much too read..   first things first..
"and the self declared hardest hardcore wouldn’t own a Wii(image issues and all)."  talking about a certain shia are we?

the use of HDMI is just security protocol.   its too bad they are ususing that for the polarized 3d effect.  (speaking of which, I just got a 8800gt coming to me new for 71 dollars.. now if only my tv can output at 120hz.   hmmm) because a lot of people wont realize they need a very impressive piece of monitor..   

with the wii are confused.   Nintendo bankrolled on the penetration market back in 2006 on the TV..  its actually done rather well in that reguard. and in the next transition, nintendo will bump up to the 360 standards most likely and be good with that.   Why isnt the gamecube.. hehe, that was a true mistake, I ment wii.. hehe.. thats funny.. anyways my guess is as good as yours, but it most likely has something to do witht he super duper 64.  (did you know that the 64 was the first in nintendos line that offered a grfx chip that can adapt new tech as they come out!  its continued to today with the wii, even if it cant process it well, it can still do it) 

I love my wii, its my favorite system, its just too damn bad Street Fighter isnt on it.. YET!!!
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Offline smallsharkbigbite

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #44 on: August 01, 2009, 09:50:15 PM »
ugh.. so much too read..   first things first..
"and the self declared hardest hardcore wouldn’t own a Wii(image issues and all)."  talking about a certain shia are we?

Lol, did you see his quote about his mom.  http://perezhilton.com/2009-05-04-shias-mom-naked-and-scary

I think everyone is reading too much into the HD effect.  Yes, it matters.  I have a PS3 and a Wii and if the game comes out for both, I am 95% likely to buy it for the PS3.  Some people will look at the 360 being HD and buy choose the 360 over the Wii thus causing less demand for hardcore titles on the Wii.  So yes, HD has an impact.  I don't know how much but it is certainly there.  It also doesn't help that review sites always compare Wii graphics to the HD systems.  The best they typically say for Wii graphics are clean, artistic, and good colors.

I think the more important issue is that Nintendo has not tried to get those types of games on their systems for years.  Nintendo is top class.  But take away their games, and the only thing I can think of as must have titles is Bond/Perfect Dark for the N64, then Resi series for the gamecube (which technically all the games except 0 are on the PS2).  When you ignore the hardcore market for 2.5 generations (N64, gamecube, Wii thusfar) the hardcore jumped ship.  Most of us die hard Nintendo fans started with the NES/SNES glory years and have stuck with Nintendo through.  The playstation generation would rather have the Halo's/Devil May Cry's/Metal Gears/GTAs than Mario/Zelda/Metroid.  When Nintendo has a an equivilent of those series, and it's exclusive, then they will start to get the hardcore back.  While Conduit is fun, it's certainly not an equivelant of what is available on other systems.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2009, 09:53:00 PM by smallsharkbigbite »

Offline rbtr

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #45 on: August 01, 2009, 10:36:49 PM »
Monster Hunter is an exception for two reasons.  A:  The main customer base is Japan and Nintendo is killing in Japan.  And 2, the gameplay is much like Pokémon which means, that Nintendo has inadvertently created an audience for this game.
Allow me to interject...

Monster Hunter plays NOTHING like pokemon.  I'd compare it more to zelda, but even that is really far off.  It's a super difficult, unforgiving, clunky controlled (in true capcom style) action RPG, where you SLAY (not capture and use) monsters.  Nintendo has nothing that even resembles this game (except MAYBE zelda).

Continue the other argument as normal...

Offline mac<censored>

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #46 on: August 01, 2009, 11:02:34 PM »
I agree that 3rd parties are "tending towards" crappier games on the wii, and this obviously hurts sales.

3rd party devs simply seem very confused about what to do with the wii, and futz around randomly releasing half-hearted attempts at games.  Making a good title requires focus, dedication, time, and money, and often all of those seem to be missing.

It's a shame because obviously some of these devs are very capable of such, but indecision and fear about what exactly the wii market is seems to be making them very reluctant to dedicate the resources required to make truly good titles.  The massive sales of the wii tempt them, but the fear paralyzes them....

Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #47 on: August 02, 2009, 02:16:41 AM »
They seem to be stuck in this mindset where they need something to copy. Since they consider the Wii completely different from other systems they'll only copy Wii games which obviously limits their options.

Offline NinGurl69 *huggles

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #48 on: August 02, 2009, 05:36:56 PM »
Samus destroys planets for her own selfish indulgence.
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Offline KDR_11k

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Re: Nintendo - "Wii are confused."
« Reply #49 on: August 03, 2009, 01:47:07 AM »
And she only does it AFTER all possible threats on the planet have been laboriously eliminated.