Topic: So what's the deal? No more Revolution news until E3 '06?

[Bill Aurion]

I can't say that that the Cube's games' experiences were as "shocking" as the N64's, but I still enjoy Mario Sunshine and Wind Waker more than their N64 counterparts...

[PaLaDiN]

"Okay, here's the thing. Nothing ever beats one's first time. If you live in some kind of alternate universe where the GameCube came out before the N64 came out before the SNES, etc, then I could maybe understand your opinions. Otherwise, you cannot possibly tell me that anything on the cube beat running around outside peach's castle in Mario 64, or stepping onto Hyrule field for the first time in OOT, or riding Epona for the first time, or flying with the wing cap for the first time......"

No, actually, I played them in order. Mario 64 was nothing compared to Mario 3, Super Mario World was comparable but still worse. Running around in Mario 64 was fun for an hour but as soon as I started fighting enemies I really started missing the precision of 2D Mario. The Wing Cap was cool but I liked the cape better. After the introductory area (which was pretty cool), stepping onto Hyrule field in OoT did nothing for me, I always ran to castle town to avoid getting locked out and avoided the normal enemies because I got no enjoyment out of fighting them... until Epona, crossing Hyrule was a chore. Epona was cool but didn't make up for the rest of the game. Basically, how can I say this gently? After LttP and the ridiculous hype, OoT was a massive disappointment... I had to force myself to finish that game. The feeling just wasn't there. MM was much better but the feeling didn't come back till Wind Waker, which to me felt like what OoT should have been. I'm not sure what to think of Twilight Princess.

So basically the only appeal N64 games held for me was the initial shock of 3D, and after that I started remembering their NES and SNES counterparts and they just didn't hold up.

Anyway, back on topic. More info is probably next month.

[Artimus]

I think OOT is overrated. It's a fun game but I don't think it's a very good Zelda game, or anything special.

[zakkiel]

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Nintendo's biggest problem can be summed up with "Xbox 360 or PS3?" This strategy won't fix that.

It could be a huge problem for Nintendo. On the other hand, the question could assume that the Rev will be the second console of choice (almost certainly true, based just on their current differentiation)  at which point it becomes a huge problem for Microsoft and Sony, engaged in a massively expensive head-on confrontation. I actually went searching for non-Nintendo boards to find the reaction to the new controller, and it's overwhelmingly positive thus far. I lost count of the number of people who said they will now get a Rev, simply because it offers something fresh.

If Nintendo tries to go up in a conventional battle against Microsoft and Sony, they will lose. They have no leverage, plain and simple. Playing it safe and avoiding mistakes will not bring back third parties or gain them mind share. By making their product radically different, they achieve credibility as innovators, visibility in the gaming community (the Revolution really was a nonentity before TGS), and have a chance to grab a whole neglected market. This is, in fact, the only strategy that could fix the problem. It's also the one that actually reflects Nintendo's philosophy of making gaming come first, which is the reason I'm a Nintendo fan.  

Edit: Paladin, you are quite possibly the only gamer in existance who would rate MM over OoT. Personally, I had to force myself to finish MM, and I actually failed to force myself to finish WW, so much did I hate the story, structure and copious amounts of filler.  Seriously, you can't complain about walking across Hyrule Field and two sentences later embrace WW. (And yes, the visuals failed to capture my imagination once in the way OoT did. I never changed my mind on I am a tremendous clownboat., and I probably never will. The extreme exaggeration of Link's expressions to the point I felt I was playing someone with a four-year-old's mental age didn't help).

[wandering]

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as soon as I started fighting enemies I really started missing the precision of 2D Mario.

mario 64 isn't about fighting! It's about mirror rooms and hidden paths behind waterfalls of lava and riding magic carpets over rainbow paths high in the clouds and jumping through paintings and sunken ships and racing penguins and riding monsters and.......

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I think OOT is overrated. It's a fun game but I don't think it's a very good Zelda game, or anything special.

You know, I'm not sure there's a whole lot more I can say on this issue, without going into all kinds of detail (which I'll do if you want). So I'll just say that while I try to respect all opinions, some opinions - like "Roger Moore was a better Bond than Sean Connery" "Hamlet isn't such a great play" or "Elvis was better than The Beatles" - are just wrong. This is one of those opinions.

 

[The Omen]

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No, actually, I played them in order. Mario 64 was nothing compared to Mario 3, Super Mario World was comparable but still worse. Running around in Mario 64 was fun for an hour but as soon as I started fighting enemies I really started missing the precision of 2D Mario. The Wing Cap was cool but I liked the cape better. After the introductory area (which was pretty cool), stepping onto Hyrule field in OoT did nothing for me, I always ran to castle town to avoid getting locked out and avoided the normal enemies because I got no enjoyment out of fighting them... until Epona, crossing Hyrule was a chore. Epona was cool but didn't make up for the rest of the game. Basically, how can I say this gently? After LttP and the ridiculous hype, OoT was a massive disappointment... I had to force myself to finish that game. The feeling just wasn't there. MM was much better but the feeling didn't come back till Wind Waker, which to me felt like what OoT should have been. I'm not sure what to think of Twilight Princess.

Although I don't agree with anything you say, at all,  in that paragraph, it's an opinion, so no sense in arguing.  However, I find it funny you don't mention the incredible number of outstanding third party games, a lot of exclusives.  The RPG releases alone add up to more than GCs entire catalogue! (hyperbole)

We're discussing the Snes being a better system...don't you think licensed games count?

[Artimus]

SNES is the best system EVER as far as games go.

[PaLaDiN]

"We're discussing the Snes being a better system...don't you think licensed games count?"

Did you miss what I posted before that?

[IceCold]

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The RPG releases alone add up to more than GCs entire catalogue! (hyperbole)

I think that Paladin prefers fewer but quality games for the console (GCN), rather than tonnes of fluff surrounding a few gems (SNES).

[Ian Sane]

I consider the SNES to be better than the NES just because the games are better and even though the NES had a stronger marketshare the SNES didn't lose enough ground to the point that the userbase felt it.  With the N64 and Cube you could notice the effect the smaller markertshare caused.  In the 16 bit era when a new game was revealed that wasn't made by Sega there was like a 90% chance it would show up on the SNES.  With the N64 and Cube there was a 90% chance it wouldn't show up.  To me there's a position that's "good enough" where even if a console doesn't dominate the market NES style it's still in a position it's strong enough that you don't get stressed out and go months without a game you like being released.

The Cube's biggest problem was that Nintendo screwed up a lot of little things during a time where people were counting them out because of the N64 and they had to prove that things were going to significantly improve.  Little things like having one less button on the controller than the competition and having a ridiculous puny memory card and making it incredibly difficult to get a demo disc makes you look incompetent.   Nintendo had to prove they were on the ball and they just gave people so many excuses to not buy a Cube.  The marketing was terrible, they used purple as the main colour, they didn't include DVD support.  Little things but you pile up all the little goofs and suddenly the Cube looks like a lemon.

Nintendo's timing was the sh!ts too.  Here's my general timeline on what I feel really hurt the Cube during the first year and a half.  They didn't do so many stupid things later on.  It was just too late to do anything.

1. The Zelda switcheroo.  Nintendo can say that the Spaceworld 2000 demos didn't indicate real games in development but that didn't change the fact that everyone felt tricked.  They say they're making a Zelda game and then they show footage of the coolest looking Zelda game ever and expect us to not freak out when they show a cartoon later on?  Or course Nintendo has since made the Zelda they "promised" five years ago but it will end up being one of the last Cube games released, years too late to make any difference.  Had Nintendo released the Zeldas in the opposite order things could have been way different.  They had their killer app at Spaceworld 2000 and they blew it.

2. Luigi's Mansion.  Not a bad game but a really short one with no replay value.  Microsoft's got Halo and Nintendo's flagship title can be completed in a weekend.  People still played Halo until the sequel came out.  That's what Nintendo needed at launch.  They could have even released the same launch lineup but given the flagship focus to something else like Rogue Leader.  Rogue Leader, like the Zelda demo, was a killer app before it was released yet it received very little attention in the initial ads.  It got like 1 second of footage in a overall console commercial while Luigi's Mansion got it's own ad.

3. The drought.  I'm not sure what Nintendo could have done to avoid this but this is what killed the Cube more than anything.  A lackluster flagship title followed by six months of nothing.  When people talk about Nintendo getting third party dev kits out for the Rev THIS is what they're talking about.  Had they been quicker getting the third parties going then maybe some games could have been released during this time.  The bad part is that the games that were released were HORRIBLE ports made by third parties who didn't have enough time to provide something worthwhile.  That gave the impression that the Cube was inferior because the same games were better on the PS2.

4. Super Mario Sunshine.  This is a big blob of problems.  The big one was no Mario at launch.  They needed him there.  The second was the really crappy marketing ie: the worst commercial ever made and the name "Sunshine".  The third problem was that Nintendo needed the most killer game ever and they basically delivered Super Mario 64 with a very lame waterpack and graphics that looked worse than the launch titles.  This is a rare scenario where I feel Nintendo should have made a different game entirely.  Usually they nail the game and then screw up on the timing of the release or the marketing but this was a game that had to deliver and didn't.  Personally I think it would have been better if Nintendo tried to make the ultimate 3D Mario game instead of trying too hard to be innovative and coming up with a lame gimmick as a result.

5. E3 2003.  This is was the last nail in the coffin.  No one thought the Cube had a chance after this.  After two years of dodging specific questions about online gaming and providing vague promises regarding the concept Nintendo revealed that their delayed "online plans" didn't exist.  Instead we got connectivity, a neat idea in theory that Nintendo didn't have any actual ideas for early on.  And the big focus of the show was Pac-Man Vs which was such a minor game that it ended up being given away as a promotional item.  The no online thing was bad enough but the fact that they dicked us around about their "online plans" really made them look like liars.  They promised a feature and never had any intention of providing it, more or less.

6. Wasted devs.  This doesn't fit into any time table but it's a wasted opportunity.  Nintendo could have really delivered killer games within the first few years of the Cube but didn't and went with Mario spin-off junk instead.  Intelligent Systems, Treasure and Camelot have the talent to deliver killer games that are unique and original and totally unlike Nintendo's other games.  They could have provided variety but instead they made Mario games that only appealed to existing Nintendo fans when something new could have attracted other gamers as well as Nintendo fans.  They handcuffed other developers too.  Rare was forced to use Star Fox.  Silicon Knights was assigned to a glorified port (Too Human is now an anticipated Xbox 360 game, if that's not a wasted opportunity what is?).  Nintendo got Square back but they made them make a connectivity game instead of, you know, a GOOD game.  Nintendo even got Sega and Namco to design games for them and what did they do?  They had them make Nintendo franchise games.  ARRRGH!  Nintendo's "everybody" way of making games totally killed variety on the Cube and thus ensured that on one outside Nintendo's hardcore fanbase gave a sh!t.  Devs that provided unique talents were wasted on games that played exactly like something EAD could make themselves.  It was like lineing up an all-star concert and then having every act play Stones covers.

[Rancid Planet]

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Originally posted by: Ian Sane
"I remember when Ian was more positive."

So do I.  Things were so much more fun when I thought the N64 was a fluke and that without the stupid cartridge goof-up Nintendo would be able to make up tons of lost ground.  It really sucks to watch a company you love screw up some of the most easy things imaginable all while eating away at your patience and enthusiasm until you're all cynical and don't trust the company to do anything right anymore.  Being a Nintendo fan for the last five years has been like watching a loved one destroy their life in front of you.

Heh, heh...Amen to that.

You know Ian, you and I see very "eye to eye" with this stuff. Nintendo HAVE screwed up. Your post up there^ with your list of reasons why, has debatable parts for some, I'm sure. But the major point to be made is this. Nintendo have made mistakes. So far as the business side of things go. I'm definately not going to bash the cube's game selection because compared to what I got on the N64 (I never played PSONE) it was freaking heaven.

It is fair to say "Nintendo blew that one" one on several different GCN topics. But I don't think it's fair to say that they haven't brought high quality games to us. We've had plenty.

The difference between myself and Ian Sane is this, I don't let the negatives get me so down. I try and remain unvested (not a word) in some way so that I can just stand back and let my company go. I love Nintendo and want the best for them fiscally, because that means I get to keep playing my precious Mario, Link, Donkey Kong yadda yadda. But I don't want to ever get totally down on them either.

Because  what matters is that I am happy with the games I play. Yes I could list about a dozen different things Nintendo should have done better just over the last five years! And I do, quite often. But through all of that I refuse to not be hopeful, not blind, just hopeful. I will point out the mistakes on the way. But hey, if Nintendo want to go with this controller then damn it, I'm going to get behind them untill they screw up so badly I make empty threats about leaving the Nintendo brotherhood.  

Do Nintendo need to get on the ball in a dozen different ways to save their image and their company's future? YES.

Will I have a heart attack when I see that the next Mario game involves you brushing your teeth with the remote controller and your hair as well as the game had been retitled "Mario Bathtime!"...because clean is better than dirty? YES.

But will I also appreciate the first Revoltuion game to blow me away? To set new standards? To disprove non-believers? YES.

[Bill Aurion]

Ok, it's time for everyone to shut up and realize that this topic has gone off on a huge bitching tangent...

Reggie: "We will continue to pull the curtain back over the next few months and we expect you'll be there."

(cube.ign.com Nintendo Minute)

[Plugabugz]

As far as I'm concerned, the rest of the world need not exist.
Nintendo have done dangerously badly in europe because they focussed so much on America and Japan.
Delaying Metroid Prime 6 months after the American/Japanese release (even though the Japanese don't like Metroid all that much) for seemingly no reason was bad enough because there was little else at the time I wanted to buy.

The only first party game we got ahead of everyone else was Mario Kart: Double Dash, and then that was by 2 days.

Nintendo honestly thought that promoting Donkey Konga like THIS, and the £79.99 price drop will honestly attract attention? Advertise the cube now being £80 and show the purple one instead of black? I know very few people who liked that colour coz it sticks out too much.
Having seen that ad, particuarly the DK one several times when it launched, I reckon someone at NoE needed to be shot. More than once.

Someone listened it seemed because when the DS hit (6 months later than everyone else), the ads improved vastly, and they even spent some money sponsoring some Friday evening TV shows on Channel 4 (which air right after Big Brother UK - the lead-in from BB meant, potentially, at least several million see the promo's). See the sponsorship ad, and the the DS launch ad.

Yes Nintendo made mistakes, but given their complacent nature they became bigger ones here. We don't want to wait 6 months for the DS (that said, we waited 9 for the PSP!), 2 years for Animal Crossing (which apparently was changed very little), and an eternity for the biggest first party games, when a quick hop over the pond (along with a freeloader) causes little problems.
Nintendo made Pennant Chase and Mario Baseball for the Americans, and while one has vanished, anyone who has a PS2 can simply play Pro Evolution Soccer 4/5 on the PS2 or Xbox. Neither PC/MB fit the European market, and Konami isn't interested in making PES for the Cube (or any other title for that matter), so why hasn't Nintendo made their own equivalent?

The problem I'm seeing is, Europe and the USA clearly are different markets and need to be treated differently but with the same urgency involved. Just because we aint selling as well, because no one around here fancies a purple GameCube next to a silver TV, or wants to play Mario Sunshine, it's no reason to abandon us in the way that it is has happened.
Apple, for example, are stamping on Creative with the iPod because it's aesthetically better (technically no, but never mind) and their marketing has a clear label. When you see the ads, you think Apple with them. People are choosing them over Creative products because of how they look and their appeal they now garnered, vs Donkey Konga whose ads nobody understand because there's dancing monkeys and an announcer who's talking too fast to catch anything.

Yes Nintendo have made mistakes, but I'm hoping next generation they'll realise that as long as Europe has a different attitude to things to how THEY like it then we're in for better things to come - There's been hints, for example, that Twilight Princess will launch worldwide simultaneously. Metroid Prime 2 already did that. It's a start.

Nintendo quirk doesn't work here.

[wandering]

I never understood why Nintendo couldn't launch english PAL games around the same time as their North American counterparts.

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Nintendo honestly thought that promoting Donkey Konga like THIS

That. Was. Awesome.

[The Omen]

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   Quote
   The RPG releases alone add up to more than GCs entire catalogue! (hyperbole)

I think that Paladin prefers fewer but quality games for the console (GCN), rather than tonnes of fluff surrounding a few gems (SNES).

Excuse me?  There are far more quality games for the Snes than the GC, that's for damn sure.  Sometimes I get the feeling some of you have never played the older systems, and have only heard they were good or bad.  There were literally dozens of 'gems' for the Snes.   Take a gander yourself:

SNES GAMES LIST

/ off topic

[PaLaDiN]

"There are far more quality games for the Snes than the GC, that's for damn sure. Sometimes I get the feeling some of you have never played the older systems, and have only heard they were good or bad. There were literally dozens of 'gems' for the Snes. Take a gander yourself: "

Okay now you just sound like an elitist jerk. I did play the SNES and I did like the games but apart from Super Metroid there was nothing I liked as much as Mario 3 or (later) WW, Metroid Prime 1/2, Tales of Symphonia and RE4. Your list of games doesn't change my opinion because as far as I'm concerned the only shining gem on the SNES is Super Metroid. The rest may be gems but in my opinion they're not comparably shiny to the games I just listed. And the N64 had nothing worth comparing.

That's the last time I'm gonna try to explain my opinion.

[Don'tHate742]

Blasphemy....all of it....blasphemy

[The Omen]

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Okay now you just sound like an elitist jerk.

For someone who claims the only great game from the Snes days is Super Metroid, I'll take the statement to mean the exact opposite of how you intended.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

This thread is failing.

HOW ABOUT SOME OCTOBERTON, EH?

[nickmitch]

Octoberton? Hmmm. . . October. . . Halloween. . . Octoberfest. . . drunken germans eating chocolate in strange costumes? Connection? Nintendo ONLINE connection!

[PaLaDiN]

So just to recap, did Iwata confirm Wifi details next month or was I imagining that?

Are there any shows planned next month or are they going to issue a press release?

[Bill Aurion]

Only the DS' WiFi details have been officially confirmed to be revealed next month, though one would think Ninty would talk about the Rev's as well...

[BlkPaladin]

It seems from what has been said that more on the Revolution will be included in the announcment. Though it is correct when you said it is mainly to push the launch of the online service for the DS which follows. As for shows Nintendo basically has decided not to restrict themselves to shows, and have press days. It doesn't cost as much as a big show and it garentees you have the press undivided attention.