Suddenly the staff's discussion become an argument over whether they're being fair and objective when evaluating the Wii U's situation.
Continued from "On Topic: Favorite Announcements from the May 7 Nintendo Direct"
Alexander Culafi
Lets be realistic, Carmine. What's the best case scenario for games coming in the Fall that could actually happen?
Carmine Red
Best case or realistic?
3D Mario and Kart are huge tentpoles that saved the 3ds and are must buys. Don't poo-poo games that compete with C.O.D. [Call of Duty] for audience-drawing potential.
Throw in Watch Dogs and Batman and that's already 4 must-buys on my list. $240 spent, just like that.
Throw in summer's games, assume some delays, factor in new announcements from e3 and its pre e3 directs...
What are people's criteria for excitement? Wii U games to play, or ammo for internet flamewars over world domination?
Jonathan Metts
The best case scenario is Mario, Metroid, and Zelda all within six months. It happened in 2002! Add a price drop, and the field resets.
Carmine Red
Look, I'll say it out loud: you guys sound negative, and I don't understand why. I need to watch this [Nintendo] Direct of course. Things can always be better, but I can't help but wonder if either you guys or I have lost objectivity.
Jonathan Metts
We are negative because things are really bad for Wii U, and nothing shown today can change that. Hopefully something at E3 can.
Dave Mellert
I love my Wii U and I wish there was a game I wanted to play on it. I don't care for Pikmin or that Rayman platformer. Multiplat games are going to be played on my PS3. What do I have to look forward to?
Help me Carmine! You're the only one that can find a silver lining for me! ;)
Thank god for 3DS.
Carmine Red
@ Dave
I sympathize. But don't you think that, objectively, your particular gaming appetites, as well as mine, are exceptional? When the tie ratio of a system after 5 years is 7 games, but people like you and me buy that amount in a year or less, then you're not complaining from a general standpoint but from a personal one.
And that's fine. Nintendo isn't doing as well as they should be, no argument here. Nintendo isn't giving multi-console owners enough reason to populate their Wii U library, no argument here. Nintendo needs to do better, no argument here.
But I'm a one-console owner. So I think I have a very clear view on what I AM getting instead of what I'm not. And personally, as a gamer, I'm currently getting enough to serve my needs, even though I can gobble more down voraciously. So I'm not gorging on games, so what? I'm still playing them. I'm still having fun. And I'm still spending money.
By all means, clutch your 3DS to your chest. I will too. But not because I'm angry about the Vita getting Persona, or the PS4 getting the next Deadspace. I'll clutch my 3DS to my chest because I AM getting Zelda, and because I AM getting Watch Dogs.
And you, Dave, have more reason to be happy than me, since you're a multi-console owner. Where's the shame in buying a game on the PS3, the XBox720, or even the PC? This is not about comparing stacks of game boxes and celebrating which one is higher. This is about playing the darn things.
Nintendo deserves to be criticized. But not to the point that we don't recognize the ways they ARE performing to capacity.
Sorry Dave, I think I sound a little harsh here. But this is my stance: utter CONFUSION as to why people act as if this is a bigger deal than a company doing its best to perform in a competitive marketplace, and sometimes failing, and sometimes succeeding, and always having to wrestle with their own limits.
Alexander Culafi
Are you really in the place to call anyone out on objectivity, Carmine? :p
Now, the tables could turn if E3 drops a huge surprise, but if Nintendo's fall ends up being the one Neal wrote down (give or take Yoshis Yarn Stories if that even matters?), you're trying to praise Nintendo for doing the absolute bare minimum required to keep their system alive.
Neal Ronaghan
[In response to Carmine's question as to how this summer-focused Nintendo Direct makes Neal less excited for the fall]
The Wonderful 101 is coming out HALFWAY THROUGH SEPTEMBER. Yes, that does make me wary of the fall. Especially since we're still short a launch window game (Wii Fit U) and a summer game (Wii U Party) that are likely due this fall. I also am not too excited about either of those games.
3D Land was spectacular, so it did indeed make a fall with not too many releases (It was Kart, 3D Land, Star Fox, and Pokemon Rumble, I think) much stronger. There is a whole lot of pressure on the Wii U 3D Mario for me. That is the game that is something more than (assumedly) safe.
Last year's E3 was the first one I went to where I came away disappointed. A lot of it was that the 3DS was minimized and the new Wii U game announcements were basically just Nintendo Land. This E3 seems to be going down that same road. Yes, it's totally colored bythe fact that Nintendo is showing more of their hand earlier (LTTP2/YI3DS would have been a helluva presser reveal), but that'sstill mostly 3DS excitement.
And Jonny - They should have two of the three, albeit one of them will be a remake. Maybe Retro is making a new Metroid for early 2014 or something and that off-the-cuff comment will be true.
Note: my focus isn't on the Wii U as a whole, but Nintendo as a Wii U publisher/developer. If we start talking third party, it gets even more depressing outside of WB and Ubisoft.
Alexander Culafi
And Mario 3D Land/Kart didnt save 3DS. They assisted 3DS in bringing the system to its full potential alongside a supremely needed price cut, a new and improved model, a careful Ambassador program to maintain loyalty, and a steady stream of games that is only now coming to fruition. Mario 3D/Kart were required puzzle pieces, but they werent the puzzle solution.
The Wii U is in horrible shape right now, and there's a tiny part of me that wonders if Nintendo can really hit anything remotely close to 3DS success. Yes, it may get some games in a year and a half and I sure will love them, but I wonder if outdated technology and a terrible start will be able to compete with the PS4 and Xbox 3 when theyre two years old. At the bare minimum, Nintendo wont stop production, but I could see it having lifetime sales that wish they were the Gamecube lifetime sales.
Carmine Red
@Alex
Yes, I am in a position to ask if there are things being unsaid here that are affecting whether we see things in a positive light versus negative one. We talk about whether we're excited about Nintendo or not, but what's our criteria for that? When we say we don't see games we want to see, what do we really mean when we have major IPs represented this year? And are we maybe just asking for too much assuming Nintendo is just 1 company?
And if you think this release schedule is bad transport yourself to the N64 days. THAT was the bare minimum to survive. Nintendo releases these days are a smorgasbord compared to that dark age.
And yes, Mario and Kart were only part of the puzzle that reinvigorated 3DS. I'm not saying that Nintendo will have EVERYTHING replicated to replay that success, but I'm saying we SHOULD NOT discount the potential of Kart and Mario because even on their own merits those ARE significant releases.
Also, if we want to have a discussion about the lifetime Wii U potential, then that's a different discussion. But thats a discussion based around the assumption that the end goal is that Nintendo "Wins" a console war. That's not an assumption we should make lightly, and that's why I'm questioning our criteria. Are we responding to this news as if Nintendo should be expected to kill its competitors, or are we responding to this news as if Nintendo should be expected to do what they've always done: make fun games for us to play?
So yes, I know I'm an unlikely advocate for questioning "objectivity", but if it takes this Wii Music lover to ask whether the emperor is wearing any clothes or am I just crazy then so be it.
Is the emperor wearing any clothes?
@Neal
I dont really have any arguments with your last post. &P Except I'm withholding judgement on the fall until E3 is past because then we'll have a much clearer picture of where Nintendo delivers and where they fall short.
Understand, I'm not arguing that Nintendo is doing wonderful, or that the Wii U's future potential is Hunky Dory. Like Alex, I think it's time to start making GC or N64 comparisons. But I AM arguing that given what they are accomplishing, and given the limitations of basic humanity as well as the laws of physics, I think this negativity is emotionally out of whack.
Dave Mellert
My real comment about the Nintendo Direct:
I pretty much buy Nintendo systems for Nintendo games and, even then, only for Mario, Zelda, Metroid, and Smash Bros. Anything else is icing on the cake for me. As disappointing as it is that the Wii U is not looking like it will have a bright future, I know I'll get those games. So...3D Mario. Awesome. I knew it was coming and I'm glad to hear an official announcement. I still can't help but think of how things could be. I am still waiting for Nintendo to announce that they are expanding Miiverse - by far their best (under-realized) idea for this console generation.
Neal Ronaghan
I'm kind of with Dave. If I built out my list of Wii U games I'm really excited for over the rest of the year, I'd probably cry and then hold my 3DS tight.
Alexander Culafi
That's fair, Dave. Mario, Smash Bros, a new eventual Zelda, and what I hope is Xenoblade 2 will all be fantastic video games that can't be found anywhere else and represent why I bought Wii U at launch. It's just that Im realizing that Wii U might not be the console I hoped it was, and Im a bit disappointed that buying PS4 is becoming a necessity rather than something to be hyped for much faster than I expected.
That said, I hope all of us negative people are so wrong and delusional about the lack of games that I have to hang my head in shame in response to the plethora of games that Wii U actually ends up bringing in the last four months. I just dont think that world exists.
Carmine Red
Alex, I'm not saying you guys will be wrong or not. I'm just trying to understand why there's such an emotional tinge to this discussion. I agree with you that we should start making comparisons to the N64 and GC sales numbers concerning the Wii U.
I want to write an editorial for the site about the future of the Wii U console over the next four years. I want to title it "Winter is Coming."
But I don't want to act as if this is somehow Nintendo letting me down personally, or betraying my trust. I appreciate and buy their products. A good game is good forever. But my personal relationship with Nintendo doesn't extend beyond that.
Neal Ronaghan
1) LOL there won't be another Dead Space!
2) They are performing to capacity, but it's just showing that their capacity for HD games is stupidly low and they colossally screwed up.
I'm with Alex. I want to be proven wrong. I want to be proven wrong so bad! But my hopelessly optimistic inner Nintendo fan was finally taken out back and shot in the head when Pikmin 3, Wonderful 101, Wii Fit U, and Game and Wario slipped to summer and beyond.
Carmine Red
@Neal
That's the difference between you and me maybe. Believe it or not, I don't shoot my inner optimist, I force him to sit down with my inner pessimist and have my inner realist mediate.
Honestly, I think you make good points for reasons to not expect much more in terms of surprises for Fall. But honestly, I don't want surprises, I want good games to play.
Neal Ronaghan
As do I, Carmine. And I expect 3D Mario to be great. I'm just not too jazzed about what might just be "Another Mario Kart Game," a tentpole remake of a game I replayed two years ago (I'll totally play Wind Waker again, but it'll likely just be "Wind Waker in HD" with nothing more), and this year's entry in the "will probably cave and buy and play for 2 hours" category with Wii Fit U and Wii U Party.
Will those games be objectively good? Probably. Am I chomping at the bit to play them? Outside of 3D Mario, no.
My tune will change if I get any inkling that Yarn Yoshi is out this year. I'm erring on the side of "probably early 2014."
Continued in "Nostalgia and Launch Windows"