Topic: My Theory On Nintendo In The Modern World

[Sean]

Hear me out.  This, I know, is long, but see if you get me.

Okay, everyone, daily, hourly, constantly is talking about how Nintendo needs to change and do things differently if they expect to "win" the console war, etc. etc. etc.  It's never-ending.

Now, by no means do I mean to imply that Nintendo has never made mistakes.  Their reliance on certain things like Pokemon, for example, hasn't really helped their long-term image, and whatever image it helped to create, Nintendo is now, apparently, trying to downplay or even muddle, or even destroy (probably not DESTROY, but you catch me).

However, Nintendo has a clear image of who they are, what they do, what they are going to do, and how they fit into the gaming world.  This isn't arrogance, and the choices they make, I believe, aren't foolhardy or rushed or small-minded or conservative.  They have two main goals, and they are the two goals that they have always had--these two goals also come with a condition, you might say.

1) Make great games and make them fun.

2) Make money with great games to make more great games.

Condition: Never do anything to compromise your value system.

Now, hopefully since that's clear, you will see what I'm getting at.

Constantly, gamefans hear that Nintendo is "losing touch" (or has lost touch), that they are mired in the past, that they hold too dear the old ways of marketing, that Nintendo isn't paying attention.  This last assumption strikes me as the most ridiculous.  The question you need ask is how do people come to this conclusion, that Nintendo isn't paying attention?  Well, the obvious answer is this: when a new game, like Grand Theft Auto 3, takes the world by storm and sells untold millions upon millions and ushers in a new dawn of gaming (which it pretty much did.  Just read the way critics talk about the game--critics from magazines as various as EGM, Maxim, even Playboy--calling it one of the most "important" games of the 90s, etc.)  This game CHANGED THINGS.  It's a game FULL of plot and gameplay and story events and tasks, and yet watch how the average guy (which was nearly every person who bought GTA3, based on what I've seen) plays the game--he or she ignores the "tasks" and the "story"; they, for months and months, simply drive around town, running over pedestrians and shooting the legs off old women.

(Disclaimer: forgive the obvious comparison to GTA3, which really is terrific game--it's just such a cultural milestone, I can't help but use it.  Realize I am not beating up on it.)

Now, I am not trying to condescend.  If that's fun for you, great!  Really.  But the problem is, people take the current "Big Thing" and use that as the balance for the rest of gaming.  They look to Nintendo, or "Kidtendo" as they might call it, and they ask, "Does Kidtendo have anything like this?  NO?!!??  They must not be paying attention, or they would be all over this like the flesh-eating virus is on Michael Jackson!"  Do you follow me?

Since this obviously isn't the sort of game, however good, that Nintendo is interested in, the average Joe Gamer says they are irrelevant.  Am I rehashing what has been said time and time before?  I think maybe so, but perhaps something is striking you as you read this.

So, where does Nintendo fit into the modern world?  I know a lot of kids (I'm 24, and I have taught junior-high and high school English, so that's where some of my evidence comes from) who still find magic (I know, it's corny) in a game like Super Mario Sunshine.  They also just love running over prostitutes in GTA3 if their parents allow (or, as the case may be, the sneak a copy into their houses as I've heard), however insane that may sound.  A lot of these kids are also yelling about the new Zelda, the prospect of a new Mario Kart, even a few of my students really enjoyed the much-maligned (but in my opinion quite good) Pikmin and yearn for Pikmin 2.

The fact is, Nintendo IS who they ARE.  They will grow, they will innovate, they will make new things, IN THEIR OWN WAY.  It takes a special eye, in the increasingly competitive and flashy gaming war, to note the difference, but it is there.  We are very hung up on exteriors, so it's easy for us to take a single look at a game and literally write it off for good.  This is unfortunate.

Meanwhile, a lot of kids are having a grand old time, and the Nintendo Purists shout and fill up message boards ad infinitum (case in point, here).  Nintendo belongs where they are, and they know it, but most of the world thinks they are being left behind in the realms of the Old Fashioned.  Flaws and all, Nintendo does still matter though.  And for all the true gamers out there, we know to dig a little deeper before we judge, and that's why it's so much more meaningful for us.  And that sort of thinking is as cross-console as you can get.  

[The Omen]

I'm an old-time gamer [29] , i still enjoy all of Nintendos games[1st party].  I played Super Mario for 17 straight hours on christmas day, 1985.  The only reason i buy nintendo systems is because their games have never let me down.  Games like GTA3 are great for my friends[and me sometimes]  who are casual gamers.  [madden,gta3,nhl,]  Nintendo, unfortunately, is becoming a cult for hardcore gamers.  [I say unfortunate because of the market they're missing out on.}  What they should do, and the only thing, is force all these companys that ride the GBA into cash heaven to make GC games as well.  Like KONAMI.    

[Sean]

I first saw Super Mario Bros., I believe, during the summer of 1986, when my family was visiting my grand-dad in such an unlikely place as Crossville, TN (which, by the way, isn't exactly known for technological advances, if you didn't guess), and my distant cousin, whom I had never met, lived across the street.  Walking in there for the first time, I was in heaven.  I played through the first level, pulled a spread-eagle face-first into the flagpole, and my life was changed for good.  Haha....

Wouldn't it be great if, in the next Mario game, it was sort of linear and you had to run quickly up these steps at the end and jump onto a flagpole?  Actually, that's not really sounding like a great idea.  But I will admit that that sort of surreal, unexplainable event is sorely lacking from Mario.  I guess I should just embrace realism!  Haha...as if it were realistic to carry a talking water pump or to ride a purple yoshi.  And where are the Hammer Bros.

[Gamefreak]

GTA3 was not one of the most important games of the 90's, I'm sorry to inform you. Now i'm off to play GTA3 on my PC, cya...

[Sean]

Actually, when you're talking about history, decades aren't literally bound by exactly ten years, as weird as that may sound.  I consider GTA3 sort of defining moment that capped off the 90's Gaming Decade, if you catch me drift.  It sort of helped to usher in a new era of gaming.  Perhaps it could've been better said, but I think my point is still valid.

Edit: Or were you simply saying that GTA3 wasn't an "important" game in general?  If so, I certainly disagree.

[Matt]

GTA 3 didn't even come out in the 90's

[Hemmorrhoid]

Well to me Nintendo is so awesome and near perfect that I cant put it in words.
And while I might be bummed out time to time because of games i miss out on other plattforms Nintendo games are always better and I wouldnt even have the money for more AAA games then there are going to be on GCN. So technically the GCN has TOO many good games for me, especially in the next year.

WHAT A 2003 LINEUP OMG

[Rancid Planet]

Quote
Originally posted by: Sean
I first saw Super Mario Bros., I believe, during the summer of 1986, when my family was visiting my grand-dad in such an unlikely place as Crossville, TN (which, by the way, isn't exactly known for technological advances, if you didn't guess), and my distant cousin, whom I had never met, lived across the street.  Walking in there for the first time, I was in heaven.  I played through the first level, pulled a spread-eagle face-first into the flagpole, and my life was changed for good.  Haha...

My very first Super Mario Brothers moment happend not to far from Crossville. In a town called Maryville, in a Pizza Hut parlor I fell in love.


...A boy remembers such things.

[Cerberus]

Well I'm not as old as you guys but I first played Mario on an original Gameboy. I think it was Super Mario World. I played it for so long (I must have been 5 at the time) but then came the time where we had to leave my cousin's house, and my cousin was the one with the GB. But I got a GBC about 2-3 years later and bought Pokemon Pinball as my first game because the store didn't have Super Mario World. I was very unhappy but I found the game next year in a Sears so I finally got to play my first exposure to Mario again.

[Marufy007]

ha ha, since we are talking about our first time playing mario bros. heres my little addition.

it was 1987 and i was 7 years old. i remember going to a friends house on a friday and he started showing off his nintendo he had just bought. his whole family hogged the system the entire time i was there. i got to play once, but no one told me how to jump! so instead of pressing A, i kept hitting up hoping i would stomp on that goomba in the first level. unfortunatly i died. that was my first experience with mario and nintendo...i later became known as "Mario" and "Nintendo Nut" among my peers once i got a NES for my birthday in 88. i even dressed up as Mario for Halloween. i didnt want a store bought one so i kept begging my mom to make one. it turned out pretty good. i had to wear thermal underwear so i could stuff a pillow in my gut and look fat without it falling out. boy was i hot! hehe, oh the memories!

[Ian Sane]

Well this topic has gone ridiculously off-topic.  Though I'll admit it's pretty funny how people will say GTA3 is "one of the most important games of the 90s" when it came out in 2001.  That's, um, not between 1990-1999 so it therefore isn't a 90s game.

Anyway Sean makes a pretty good point.  Nintendo isn't the type of company to make a game like GTA3 so we shouldn't expect them to release one.  That's fair enough.  I don't expect Nintendo to release one.  However you (and many other people) are making the assumption that Nintendo the developer and Nintendo the console maker are exactly the same thing.  That's not true.

No Nintendo isn't going to and probably shouldn't make a game like GTA3.  BUT that doesn't mean the Gamecube shouldn't have a title like that.  Nintendo doesn't have to make any ultramature games but they can try to get third parties to make those sort of games on the Gamecube and they're not.  Nintendo games are only released on Nintendo consoles but that doesn't mean that Nintendo consoles only have Nintendo games on them.  The Gamecube can have ANY game on it and if Nintendo doesn't make it it doesn't compromise their principles.

The Gamecube should have games like GTA3 on it just to fill in genre gaps in its library.  Nintendo doesn't have to compromise their image to do so.  

[Gamer Donkey]

Firstly: 1999-1999 doesn't quite make a decade

Secondly: My first NES came to me at the age of 2, in 1989 and was a life-altering experience. Despite my sister hogging it.

Thirdly: I think the people at Nintendo are doing their job well. I do understand, however, that even though I don't see the point of beating random people on the street, doesn't mean Nintendo can't make or release a game like that. But Ninendo's success doesn't seem to be in one ground-breaking game, but rather many qualituy games. Right now I'm only have money to buy one of the four games I want, with more I anticipate to be released soon. I just can't be satisfied with one game, there are so many diverse titles. I want to go on, but I know that would be boring to you, fair reader. So please keep an open mind to my opinions.

[RickPowers]

I've said it before, and I think it bears repeating.  It is not Nintendo that has changed or is losing touch.  It's the gamers who are growing up and developing different tastes and are no longer in Nintendo's target market.  It is impossible for a company to continue to cater to an audience that is growing up and maturing.  Those of you wonder why Nintendo is no longer making the games you want to play need to realize that it's more a function of your changing point of view than anything Nintendo is doing different.

[Clonester]

Great points Sean. You are very right. Period.

I started out on the Nes (everyone seems to be including this, so I will too). First game was Super Mario Bros. I also got (and still have) RBI Baseball, Grand Slam Golf, Final Fantasy, Legend Of Zelda, Dragon Warrior IV, Tecmo Bowl, and Tecmo Super Bowl (which is still my most favorite football game ahead of Madden 2003, and the Tecmo Bowl series is the only ounce of respect I give to Tecmo). I also borrowed dozens of games from my friend for the system (less money for me to spend, hehehe). Those games are still fun to play. The Snes is still my most favorite console ever. So I think it is complete and utter nonsense that Nintendo is stuck in the past. Game cartridges, CD's, and DVD's age, but the games that are on them and the fun you have playing them lasts forever. Fun knows no boundaries, BUT, the concept of what is fun has been twisted and changed.


My most favorite games are the long, epic, great games, the top two being Chrono Trigger and LOZ: Ocarina Of Time (read my sig). Nintendo makes great long, epic, great games. Mario Bros. started this long line of games following this standard. Such game series Nintendo made or helped on that fit this bill include Mario, LOZ, Metroid, Donkey Kong, Earthbound, and many more. It's console has also been home to many other series that fit that bill. Nintendo also makes great games that are fun and are great to play with friends. They make games that may seem unusual like a Pikmin or Animal Crossings, but once you play these games you have no regrets. I know I didn't. Nintendo makes great games. Period. They make great consoles and hardware. Period. All I can say is: Long Live Nintendo!!!  

[Gamer Donkey]

Amen to that.

[Sean]

Guys, this thread's going very well, I think, but please, let the "GTA3 didn't come out in the 90's" thing go.  I actually do explain what I was getting at by saying that, if you read my third post.  I am well aware that a year that starts with a "20" isn't in the same decade as one that starts with a "19".  Really, I am.  Call it a huge lack of judgment on my part, but there was a method to my madness.  As is the case with history, I wasn't being all that literal when I said 90's, but if you ask me, GTA3 capped off the 90's and ushered in a new era more apparently than any other game, whether you like the game or not.  Ya dig?

Ian Sane, you make a GREAT point in reminding people that Nintendo doesn't have to make a game like that when 3rd parties can do it for them.  Great point, and well noted.  That's where a few of the errors on Nintendo's part (capitalizing on Pokemon, for instance) sort of began to SLOWLY tell 3rd parties that their games weren't wanted on Nintendo's system.  Of course, Nintendo denies this, even in the face of the "white blood/sweat" debacle way back in Mortal Kombat on SNES, and they say, I have read, that they do not discourage "violent" games.

I would also like to say that if Nintendo did make a game as violent as GTA3 (and not via a 2nd party like Silicon Knights), I wouldn't hold that against them, necessarily, as long as they brought to it their usual touch.  It would be a little hard to bear, perhaps, and we might all question their motives, but I won't say that it would be WRONG of Nintendo as that would be limiting them.  

Still, I think the point has been made a few times here already that Nintendo is still (mostly) catering to who we were 10 or 15 years ago, and believe it or not, there's a whole new generation who needs them just as much we did.  Perhaps we need them now more than ever, not to be too over dramatic.

[rpglover]

nintendo may not change the way teenagers want them to
the problem is that these kids think that the only way you can make a good game now is with lots of blood, shooting, ect...
thats why gta is such a hit now...........but i bet none of those kids that love gta 3 ever played the original gtas
i am 19 yrs old and have had nintendo systems since 89
my first games were mario brothers and duck hunt
ever since then i have owned every nintendo system
and after seeing all these years of nintendo games i think nintendo is making some really good moves now
they are starting to release AAA titles closer together now (mario,metroid,zelda within 8 months of eachother!)
they are making new franchises (pikmin,warioworld)
they are taking risks in some of their new games (1st person in metroid,pikmin's gameplay)
people do not always realize these moves because they are so caught up in what is "cool"
i know lots of people with x-boxs and i like some of the games on that system
but those games do not have all the charm nintendo puts into their games
to me there is something about the cuteness of some of nintendos games that makes them very appealing
all i hope for is that nintendo makes the right business moves to stay in the business
i dont care if they are 1st, 2nd, or 3rd in the console race
i dont care if they do not do what all the people want them to
i just hope they stay in so i can still play those awesome nintendo exclusives for years to come
long live nintendo!

[Gamer Donkey]

I'd have to agree, Nintendo just puts something into their games that you don't see other places. I first think of Waverace: Blue Storm, in the loading screen that little bubble just absorbs my attention for however long it takes. Who knows why, maybe I'm simple-minded, but that give every game something.  Maybe its because they got started the earliest of all the next-gens, maybe its their Japanese ownership. I don't know, but whatever it is will keep me coming back to Nintendo for the GC2 and so forth.

My, so many Simpsons qoutes

[Termin8Anakin]

I think Rick said it best. We are growing up, and therefore out taste in games will grow, and not just depend on Nintendo's games to fill our needs.
I myself only realised this last year, when I bought my Gamecube. I wanted to buy Mario Sunshine so bad, but when I played the demo at the shops, it just didn't seem to grab me and suck me in as much as MArio 64 did all those years ago. Sure Sunshine was the better game, but I realised that I just wasn't interested in these sort of games as I used to be. So, I go Eternal Darkness, Nightfire, Rogue Leader, Extreme G3 and Harry Potter (for my sister).
Zelda will always be captiating, and I'm sure Metroid Prime will do for me just fine, but the way in which Nintendo operates is not in need of a change. We are always hoping that Nintendo will "see the light" and make a mature game, but we know that's not gonna happen anytime soon. And we are always trying to find games that capture the essence of the first game we ever played that got us into games. But is that always possible? No. I'm sure that when we first played Super Mario Bros on the NES, we were just dumbstruck, but has that really been the case with Mario Sunshine? It sure was with Mario 64, because it was the first 3D Mario game, and it was done VERY well and that is what a revolution is, but Mario Sunshine is just EVOLUTIONARY and that is why it doesn't really capture that essence.

[telaris]

Many good points here. It's always nice to have an intellectual conversation, especially when the admins add their 2 cents. If I wasn't so tired I would add something.

[Marcus Arillius]

Quote
Originally posted by: Gamer Donkey
I'd have to agree, Nintendo just puts something into their games that you don't see other places. I first think of Waverace: Blue Storm, in the loading screen that little bubble just absorbs my attention for however long it takes. Who knows why, maybe I'm simple-minded, but that give every game something.  Maybe its because they got started the earliest of all the next-gens, maybe its their Japanese ownership. I don't know, but whatever it is will keep me coming back to Nintendo for the GC2 and so forth.

My, so many Simpsons qoutes

OMG!!!! I thought I was the only person that was entranced by that little bubble.  I always think if you put it on a certain spot on the screen, maybe it unlocks something....but alas, it doesn't, well, I don't think it does.  Personally, I love everything about Nintendo, and although I may not agree with some things that they do (cel-shading zelda I know, its innovative, refreshing, blah blah blah...whatever) I trust everything they do because they know what they are doing.  I'm so glad they haven't changed what they do, and how they make their games, and it will be a dark day when they do.  Just as someone stated before, I don't care what place they are in the console race.  Does anyone really care? Thats just something the ney-sayers make a big deal out of to make themselves feel better for buying an x-box. ( the previous sentence was just a joke, and I hope everyone is aware of that.) Nintendo still makes the big bucks.  I'm sure if they went by profit, Nintendo would be in second.  Even still, that doesn't matter.  In short, I love Nintendo........Nintendo, will you marry me?(once again, a joke, sort of ruins it, just like the last, but I don't want to be whined at)

 

[Kai]

When I say "I want Nintendo to make more adult games." I am not thinking GTA or (horrors) BMX XXX. These games, imo, are marketed and sold in great numbers to teenagers (yes, I know they aren't rated for children or teens, but you would have to be blind not to notice that they are at least partially marketed towards teens and older children. In any case, quite a lot of parents seem to be happy to pick up games for their kids that are rated for adults.

What I am thinking of are games which are intelligent, absorbing, have adult themes....like Deus Ex, System Shock 2, Silent Hill, Eternal Darkness, Resident Evil, Metroid Prime...and so on.

What I hope that Nintendo doesn't do is throw together some crass, exploitative junk just to throw off the "kiddy" image. Not that I think they would, but just thought I would define what I mean by "adult."

What I like about Nintendo is that they don't dumb down their games, but also manage to make them very accessible.  

/edit - I just wanted to concur with what other people have mentioned about Nintendo's 'attention to detail" in their games. It's excellent.

[BlkPaladin]

Nintendo has a alway will do things the way they did in the NES make games for their consoles that appeel to the largest market possible. That is why we are see Nintendo invest in some second parties that will make some games for certin target audiences. They did this from day one because it makes them money. And it will make them money in the future.

As for Gaming Nastolgia my first experience with Nitnendo was Donkey Kong on the Atari at my second cousin's house. My first experience with the NES was Legend of Zelda at my first cousin's house. And finally what drove me over the edge was staying over at my best friend house playing nothing but video games on the NES. (Salome, SMB, Duck Hunt, Ballon Fighters ahhh.....)

[Sean]

Quote
 What I like about Nintendo is that they don't dumb down their games, but also manage to make them very accessible.  

I love what you say here, Kai.  It's so utterly true.  I know we're all tired of the "kiddie argument" against Nintendo, but it bears repeating that they aren't "kiddie" while they ARE accessible.  Yes, exactly.  Great point.  The same people who yell "childish" at Nintendo all the time would be shocked at how "mature" the gameplay is in nearly any Nintendo game, if, that is, they ever bothered to play it.

But, most people argue from a very second-, or third-, or fourth-hand view of the so-called truth, and the internet is perfect for that sort of thing because it's so instantaneous, hence the millions of inane posts we read every day.  Anyway, I don't want to beat this into the ground, but it's all about perception, and this, my friends, is a pity--because the games are so much better than to deserve a write-off thanks to a half-hearted perception.

Sometimes I wonder why we spend all this time talking about this sort of thing, and the naysayers like to throw out derogatory terms like "fanboy" and "loser" (I guess), but the truth is, if you love games, and if you really can tell a good game from a bad game (which goes beyond differences of taste and opinion SOMETIMES, doesn't it?), you feel compelled to TELL EVERYONE that they should play what you love, because you just can't stand to think that someone would miss out on such fun and greatness.  That's what drives us, I guess.

I've really been impressed by the posts here--so many people, especially, saying things like "I don't care if Nintendo 'wins' the race, I just want them to survive."  This is so clear-headed and sensible that I just want to cry...haha.

[thecubedcanuck]

I just got back from playing the Zelda demo down at EB.
I must say I got that feeling again, the one I had playing Mario64, that feeling where you forget its a game and you litterally become one with the character.
All I can say is wow.