Topic: Let's Talk Controller

[ib2kool4u912]

Yeah, or something else stupid, like an analog stick.......

[UncleBob]

Personally, I think some kind of combination Wavebird/Virtual Boy controller is the way to go.  The GCN and VB controllers are my absolute favorite controllers ever... I'm not 100% sure how combining them together would work, but I'm pictuing the VB's basic design, built where you can rest your middle fingers on the shoulders... where, of course, GCN like shoulder buttons would be added.

Both D-Pads would be replaced with thumbsticks (not C-Sticks... blarg) and either GCN or SNES buttons added in place of the A/B Buttons... One D-Pad moved to the left side, in place of the start/select buttons.  The Start/Select button(s) would be placed smack dab in the middle.

That's just my ideas, of course...

[Ian Sane]

" Ok, Nintendo should do what it did with the original Nintendo Entertainment System: They included with the system two different ways for the player to interact with the games: the standard game controller and the Light Gun Zapper, which was the 'gimmick-slash-creative' controller."

I like that idea.  The problem with making an innovative controller is that if it's too innovative this problem appears where only exclusive titles use it well and multiplatform releases, ports, remakes, or compilations don't.  Although I find the Cube controller to be really comfortable to hold after a couple years of using it I've come to the conclusion that it's not a well designed controller.  It's designed too much with only Nintendo first party titles in mind.  The "innovative" button configuration just doesn't work well for genres like fighting games or multiplatform titles designed around a setup used since the SNES (one Nintendo ironically standardized).  And of course the d-pad sucks, likely because Nintendo had no plans to use it and thus put no effort into its design.  When designing a controller you have to think about how everyone is going to use it, not just yourself.  You have to think about games from the past as well and make sure that EVERYTHING ever made works.  Controllers should be evolutionary not revolutionary.

So therefore having two controllers with different functionality works best because then Nintendo can go batsh!t with whatever weird idea they want and not completely f*ck up all the third party games.  There's only one problem.  Multiplayer is more important now than it was with the NES.  With the NES you only needed two regular controllers and one lightgun.  With the Revolution you would likely need four regular controllers and four "wacky" controllers to fully utilize the lineup.  Though it might work out if the "wacky" controller is only used for a few titles like most "novelty" controllers.

[nemo_83]

When I think of alternative controllers I think of the horrible plan to have the GBA as the secondary controller on Cube.  I want one standard for controlling the games and I want it to be packaged with the sytem at launch.  Gyration can simulate steering wheels, light guns, mice, swords perhaps, tilting games, music games, flight sticks, and traditional console controllers.  If they are planning on having some "revolutionary" gameplay device and then force us to buy multiple DSs just so we can use mic, camera, touch screen, dpad, or just the two screens for personal display then count me out.  It is supposed to the Nintendo Revolution, not the Nintendo DS networker.  Everything the DS does should either be packaged in with Revolution or only optional.  With the touch screen and a DS camera one could open the option of customizing their games more than the other consoles could offer.  I feel a microphone for example is something that should come with the Revolution and not be held hostage on the DS.  

I dont think they should put a screen on the next controller because that would mean that the controller would have to be one piece of hardware rather than two independent handles with independent gyration.  Sure steering wheel simulation could be easier if the controller were one piece of plastic but that kills all of the posibilities and flexibilities offered by having two handles.  Imagine operating camera, character movement, aim, and your grappling beam all indepently in Metroid Revolution.  Imagine grabbing anything you want with the grappling beam and using it like a tentacle you can grab, throw, or pull anything while still firing with full aim control independent of camera control.  Sony and MS sound like they are going to go with cameras and traditional controllers.  Thus they leave it up to the developer to come up with ways to control the game rather than supplying a way like gyration would.  It seems Sony wants the success or failure of the camera technology as a controlling mechanism to be on the shoulders of the third party developers.  You give people enough rope and they'll hang themselves.  I would rather have something more accurate like gyration.  With cameras you usually only get two dimensions of data.  Up down and left right.  With gyration you could also get forward and backward tilting and if you use gyration handles in conjunction with a camera then anything is possible.  


I dont care for a screen that I have to look down at when my eyes shouldn't have to leave the screen.  For god's sake Nintendo needs to go online.  I dont know a person with a Cube that doesn't also have internet.  I also don't know anyone personally that has a Cube but doesn't also happen to have broadband.  But I dont know anyone who plays their Cube online.  

The only alternative controller that has worked for Nintendo on a large scale has been the Wavebird.  It doesn't change anything about the Cube controller, but it offers an alternative way of playing.  I feel that Nintendo will have standard wireless controllers next generation and cords will be the alternative.  They could just package detachable cords that can be used when the batteries are low or you want rumble, buzzing, heat, cold, and other sensations generated by the controller.

[Colyma]

Im thinking about buying the XaviX because im tired of gaining waight sitting on the couch playing. I want the interactive ability and I hate the stupid eye toy... and I'm sure they will bring out more games with better graphics down the road.

[Ian Sane]

Check this out.

Assuming this works okay I think having something like this would be great for the Revolution controller.  Aside from the Cube's d-pad's size one problem is that it's in an awkward position.  Since a controller has to be analog stick centric or d-pad centric something is going to be in an awkward position.  But with this you can just switch where you want the control options to be.

And since this controller only costs $20 we can probably assume that the technology needed to have interchangable controls isn't too expensive.

[Bill Aurion]

It's a very interesting concept, though the important thing to know is just how durable and accurate the controller is...

[KDR_11k]

I like the idea, finally I could put the analog stick on the PS2 where it belongs. Now if they just had these for the PC, too...

[MODE_RED]

I like the flight joystick handle idea as well shy guy. I thought about that when the Gamecube was still only Dolphin rumors.

To add to your list, I think it's about time for controllers to have their own speakers and sound effects to compliment the built-in rumble.

This would heighten the feeling of swinging a lightsabre or firing guns. It also gives your game system a speaker channel that is right in front of you, which is perfect for scaring the crap out of someone. Especially if that someone has been playing so longnon-stop  that he/she is constipated.

[Surge]

you know you look at video game controllers and you notice something about them....Nintendo is always trying something different with video games and how to interact with them.  THey are never waiting for the industry to stable down and profit from it. that is not how a company stays on top of any industry.  Looking at the various controllers Nintendo has developed over the years for each system you notice that the controllers at some point were built specifically for Nintendo games.  They try too much to sway the industry in their direction.  Nintendo created the analog stick for 3-d games and then Sony added it to it's controller very simply (two of them that is).

I really enjoyed the ability to change the face configuration on the Phoenix™ Revolution controller.  Its something different than from the same type of controllers third parties publish and it is defiantaly something that Nintendo needs to take in to consideration when their next console comes out.  Nintendo games have always been awesome, but they have limited their audience way too much for way too many reasons.  So indeed a Revolution is coming now that Nintendo is getting serious [("Touch it")<-----DS]

[BlackGriffen]

While I agree that a modular controller is a novel and potentially very interesting idea, it also presents a major problem: complexity. The way I see it, complexity brings two not insurmountable problems: cost, and reduced durability. If Nintendo can find a way to produce a modular controller at a reasonable price with sufficient durability, then I say go for it. The advantages boggle the mind if they can pull it off. To name a few:

* Custom layouts - the user can configure the controller in a way most comfortable to him/her

* Cheap repairs - main joystick giving out? No problem - you only have to replace the joystick instead of the whole darn controller. Same for other modules.

* Custom modules - Nintendo can produce custom modules specialized for different games, and also permit third parties to include such modules with games.

The downsides:

* Modules will be comparatively easy to lose - but that shouldn't be a huge problem.

* Games will need to be able to deal with crazy non-standard modules.

Thus, Nintendo will have to come up with a sensible standard layout. The modules will then have to contain information on what sort of control they are (eg analog stick, X number of digital buttons, touch screen, etc), and preferably a picture that can be plastered onto controller setup screens. There will have to be some kind of standard way to deal with these as well (how buttons map, etc). The games will also have to have a detection system built in to ensure that the controller has been configured with enough digital buttons and appropriate analog components to play the game.

Much promise, but much complexity needed to achieve that promise.

BlackGriffen

[Hostile Creation]

That's some fancy editing, Ian.

[Ian Sane]

Someone started a thread about this that got locked due to being in the Gamecube section and since I've seen more discussion regarding it on other sites I'm revisiting it.

Rumour has it that the Revolution controller will have no d-pad or A/B buttons.

Now it's entirely possible that Nintendo simply is not calling the buttons "A" and "B" so that it doesn't necessarily mean anything (just don't use shapes).  But no d-pad is certainly major.

In my opinion dropping the d-pad is a bad move.  The effectively useless d-pad on the Cube made games that require digital control very difficult to play (Tony Hawk) or in some cases just outright unplayable (Capcom vs SNK 2).  If there is no d-pad then right away most fighting games, shmups, and retro compilations are unplayable.  That's just enforcing a huge limitation on game design for no reason.

Now sure I haven't seen the controller yet so you could say I'm jumping to conclusions and that Nintendo has figured something out I'm just not thinking.  Well that could be true but Nintendo's last two controllers were designed with a "no one but us is going to use this" attitude so history suggests that they'll have a similar attitude this time, designing a controller for them but not third parties.  Plus the DS shows that an alternative method is not always a feasible solution (as demonstrated by unsuccessful attempts to emulate analog stick functionality with a touchscreen).  The Nintendo of the last few years doesn't seem like the type of company that gives a sh!t about removing functionality that they themselves wouldn't think to use.  There's no noticable difference from the Nintendo that designed the inflexible Gamecube controller so why would I think their approach to controller design would be any different?

[Avinash_Tyagi]

Maybe the controller is a series of touchscreens.

Didn't Iwata say that he wanted the Revolution's controller to be like the computer in "Minority Report"?

So maybe its like a series of touchscreens and "Eye toy" like input devices so you don't even need buttons or thumbsticks to control.  

It'll be like a cross between the DS and Eye toy, with voice recognition maybe even have technology similar to the bongo drums in Donkey konga and other non-traditional input devices.

[couchmonkey]

Ian: It's true that Nintendo doesn't care about what everyone else is doing, and that's why I'll probably have to own a Revolution.  If Nintendo can create something truly different that's not just gimmicky, I'll need to own it in a way that I don't need to own a slightly more powerful Playstation.  Of course, I don't want to give up traditional videogames, so maybe I'll have to buy another system along with the Revolution, but Revolution is the machine I'm really looking forward too.

It may be that Nintendo will kill itself off by not caring what the other developers want to do, but I'll be right there enjoying the innovative games while it happens.

One other thing: I wish everyone would take a hint from Nintendo and come up with differently-shaped controller buttons.  I found the Cube controller way easier to learn than either the PS2 or Xbox controllers simply because the buttons aren't all the same.  That doesn't mean they need to come up with crazy configurations, either, they could just copy the SNES design and make half of the buttons curved in and the other half curved out.  It makes a big difference, in my opinion.

[Ian Sane]

"Of course, I don't want to give up traditional videogames, so maybe I'll have to buy another system along with the Revolution, but Revolution is the machine I'm really looking forward too."

That's the problem: I don't want to have to buy two consoles.  The Cube may be slim on third party exclusives but in general I can find at last one game of each type on it.  If the Revolution is too different then certain genres just aren't going to exist on it.  Plus keep in mind that Metroid and Zelda and Mario currently follow "traditional" design.  If the controller is too weird we won't even be able to play those classic games in the form we're used to.  Giving up third party games sucks but it's doable.  Giving up Zelda as I know it for some weird gyro-controller just outright blows and would turn me off of current games for good.  That's an extreme but it's a fear I have.  I also don't want Nintendo to do something that would kill themselves off.  I don't want companies like EA buying Mario and that would happen if Nintendo went broke.

[Stimutacs Addict]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane the DS shows that an alternative method is not always a feasible solution (as demonstrated by unsuccessful attempts to emulate analog stick functionality with a touchscreen).  

i'll say this one more time: analog touchscreen control is NOT hard to operate... it takes 20 minutes (tops) to learn how to effectively move Mario around. All it takes is a little coordination. even the turnaround jump that everyone complains about is not that hard to pull off if you watch the analog target.

but oh wait! watching the bottom screen and the top screen is too difficult, right? get better.


(that's the end of my rant. it's short and bitter and not neccessarily directed at you, Ian, but I notice that you seem to be the most outspoken DiSsapointed DS fan)

[Jensen]

Quote
Originally posted by: Stimutacs Addict

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane the DS shows that an alternative method is not always a feasible solution (as demonstrated by unsuccessful attempts to emulate analog stick functionality with a touchscreen).  

i'll say this one more time: analog touchscreen control is NOT hard to operate... it takes 20 minutes (tops) to learn how to effectively move Mario around. All it takes is a little coordination. even the turnaround jump that everyone complains about is not that hard to pull off if you watch the analog target.

but oh wait! watching the bottom screen and the top screen is too difficult, right? get better.


(that's the end of my rant. it's short and bitter and not neccessarily directed at you, Ian, but I notice that you seem to be the most outspoken DiSsapointed DS fan)

Fighting with the controls should not be part of the game.  The controls should be as simple as possible to make the on-screen character do what you want him to do.   The controller should be a transparent layer between you and the game.  (this is part of the reason I dislike games like street fighter 2).

Most of the Mario 64 DS mini-games are incredibly easy to control, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they are easy games.

This doesn't mean I want to simplify games.

 

[roxics]

I like the gamecube controller. I like the way it fits in the hand and I like the feel of the L and R buttons. I also like how the analog stick is up top and not down like it is on the PS1 and 2.

The only things I would do different is allow for swappable controls like the example revolution control for the PS2. That is a very cool and useful idea. I've had it before myself and I'm glad to see it made it to a controller. I would also take out the Z button and add a clickable scroll wheel on each side above the L and R buttons. That would be great for scrolling through menus and even changing viewpoints on first person shooters. One of the things I don't like about Halo for the Xbox is how you need to use the second analog stick to move your viewpoint. It's too difficult to get it exactly where you want it. But if you were able to use the scroll wheel on the top right to swing your characters eyes up and down and the one of the top left to swing your characters eyes left and right it would be easier.

I would also make the cord detachable. Then you could buy a wireless unit that would snap into even the standard controllers. It would have the wireless unit with an outside mounted lithium-ion battery. I say outside mounted battery so that you could get different sizes. A big one for longer gameplay with a heavier feeling controller or a slim battery with a light weight feel. But the wireless unit would be optional to keep the cost down on standard controllers. Yet at the same time not requiring you to buy a totally new controller to go wireless.

Another novel idea would be to have buttons that light up. Each button would have a bright colored LED to use as guide lights. That way games can show you button combinations or games with certain special moves you have to wait for can suddenly have a blinking button telling you that you can now use that button to perform that action.

I would also like the see a headphone and mic jack at the botton of the controller between the two handles. With a volume knob and mute button. It would be great for when you just want to wear headphones or when you play online games that require a headset with mic.        

[Spak-Spang]

IGN has reported a story from a Japanese source stating that the Nintendo revolution won't have a D-PAD or A/B Button Combo.

Hmmm.  

This is very interesting.  The Button Combo makes me wonder what the new configuration is.

The D-PAD could mean anything.  It could just mean that Nintendo managed a way to combine D-PAD control with an Analog control stick...or that Nintendo just wants to simply the controller and take the D-PAD element that is hardly used out.

However, the A/B button thing is baffling.  It begs the question will there be buttons at all?  

[Truthliesn1seyes]

I've talked bout this rumor on another forum.  My thoughts on it is they are not getting rid of buttons all out but ditching the old standard of D pad and A/B action buttons.  In the other forum someone stated that they could be trying an all analog controller.  Analog stick and analog buttons (moreso than what we see today) along wit maybe some motion sensor aspects to it are what I'm expecting.  The button layout will prob be moved around a bit and ditch the typical patterns.

What I can envision is 2 analog sticks and no face buttons.  One analog stick on the left like Gamecube's and one on the right in the exact same spot (centered, not off to the the bottom left)  The buttons would be 4 or 3 R buttons and 4 or 3 L buttons.

To visualize this just picture how your fingers curl up behind a controller and put an analog button for each finger (shaped for your finger like the Gamecube's R and L buttons) and you'll get the picture.  I know it's a little far fetched and completely out of the norm but with this layout, you'll never have to move your finger to reach a button since all your fingers are already on top of a button.  This could go against their idea of simplifing things though and I am not exactly sure how easy it'll be to adapt to a controller of that nature but I would sure love to try one out lol.

The last poster (sorry forgot to see their SN) mentioned some good features for the controller but I have one other one that hasn't been mentioned.  I would KILL lol for memory card saves to be implemented into controllers thus eliminating the need for memory cards.  You can save your games direct to your controller.  Whenever you visit a freinds house you can take your controller, which already has your custom control settings and game saves, and not have to worry bout memory cards. Maybe even put a small screen on the center of the controller to manage your files instead of on the TV screen.  Another nice feature would be to let you put your name as a screen saver on the small screen so people know who's controller is who's.  It'll personalize your controller in a way, making more of a connection lol
 

[nemo_83]

One night I had a dream Nintendo's controller had two yellow circles on the top of it and nothing else.  You pushed down on the outer rim of the circles to use them like analog sticks.  It was like using a round dpad because you didn't use the center to move in a direction you pushed the outside.  The center had a dip that was slick and had a digital clicking function like the other consoles' analog sticks that only worked when you pushed down the center.  The outer rim had a rubber grip with four dips in it.  The dips were slick like the center of the circle.  You could rotate the entire circle like a steering wheel with your thumb in one spot.  

[Morien]

Gee.... I'd hate to tell you what I dream about...

[Spak-Spang]

Hey I really like the memory in the controllers idea...however it begs a few questions.

When creating character profiles and game files would it just default to controller 1 or do you choose?  What happens when your controller gets old or messed up, or you want a friend to borrow a controller?  

Right now memory sticks are getting cheaper and cheaper and more stable than ever.  I still like the idea of memory stick saves than a hard drive.  I guess you could have both but that seems like overkill.  

The idea of full analog buttons are interesting...but it also makes controlling games more complicated than simplier.  Nintendo is trying to bring gaming back to an easier style of play not more complicated.

As well Analog buttons will work for certain games and not others.  PS2 tried to have analog buttons that could do both functions, and it isn't very successful.  The analog feels just off and hard to determine where you are on the button.  

If Nintendo could figure away to get D-PAD responses from an analog stick and still have analog stick functionality that would be an awesome improvement, but I do not think the same is possible with the buttons.

I also understand what Ian Sane is worried about with Touch Screen controllers not having the ability to have the same response that buttons have, because you can't feel when you are pushing the buttons in.  However that is one single (albet large) downside, to an otherwise pretty amazing setup of allowing you to design a controller with unlimited button configurations.  Will it work?  I have no idea, but it would be revolutionary.

[nickmitch]

The controller should be an inflatable  pengiun that you punch and squeeze in certain spots to play.
On a serious note: the memory controller idea might require cords and the screen would hurt battery life.