Topic: If this is true...

[mouse_clicker]

Quote
And here's a doozy for you. If monogamy is a human creation does that mean that love is as well?

Love is a chemical reaction to insure the best upbringing for offspring- mothers are much more loving more often than not because they're supposed to be. Love between mates is an illusion created so they'll have sex more often- true love is complete crap.

Quote
First of all, humans lack instinct...Maybe if you replaced "instinct" with "hormones" it'd work out...Second, if this were the case, then why do such species as foxes, for example, mate for life?

Honestly, Bill, don't single out the very few exceptions and ignore on the VAST majority of animals (including mammals) that AREN'T monogamous- a few cases does not mean monogamy is natural for every animal. Hell, most animals that are monogamous aren't even together with the sire of their offspring- humans are one of the only creatures who's sexual partners and social partners are on and the same.

Also, don't tell me humans lack instinct- newborn babies inherently known where their mother's breast almost immediately after birth. Are you going to tell me THAT'S hormonal? Humans are NO different than any other animal- I can't possibly see how we lack instincts. Elaborate on that, please.

Quote
And the main reason for spouses cheating on each other is boredom of each other, which as far as science knows, is a feeling only humans get...

How vague!  What do you think causes that boredom? Being together with the same mate constantly! Don't you think that an animal that is not naturally monogamous would grow bored of the mate they've forced themselved to be with? Even if humans are the only animals that experience boredom, wouldn't that be the logical emotion to assign to forced and unnatural monogamy? A statement like that can work both ways.    

[Bill Aurion]

"Love between mates is an illusion created so they'll have sex more often- true love is complete crap."

Touche...Maybe because you've never felt it? ^_^  I've felt love that was completely non-sexual towards a close girlfriend of mine...

"Being together with the same mate constantly- don't you think that an animal that is not naturally monogamous would grow bored of the mate they've forced themselved to be with?"

Then the question should be, "Why do they force themselves into that position?"  My monogamy example was exactly what you said, to prove that monogamy isn't "unnatural."  But humans are a strange exception...Humans can have either monogamous or syngamous tendancies...And it's not just society that has made room for monogamous relationships in the human race, as there were monogamous relationships long before these rules and religions were established...I myself have monogamous "feelings" so to speak(which may or may not be held back morality alone, but I guess we'll never know ^_^)...So don't put the tab completely on humans as a whole being syngamous, because that's absolutely not true...

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

"I'd have 2 chicks at the same time... Hell yeah, man."

-- that neighbor dude from "Office Space."

[mouse_clicker]

I never said humans can't overcome monogamy, and you do raise a good point that I can't use it as a blanket statement, but I still firmly believe that at our core we are not meant to be monogamous, and it's society that has engrained in us the desire to be monogamous- I'm not saying that we should reject monogamy, just offering my view on why we don't- I'm certain I'll end up in a monogamous relationship as well (if I can ever even get in a relationship ). Keep in mind that polygamy comes just as naturally to some people as monogamy to us. I was wrong to generalize everyone into one category, though, sorry.  

[Ian Sane]

"Love between mates is an illusion created so they'll have sex more often- true love is complete crap."

Well I love my parents and my siblings and to some extent my best friends.  I have no sexual desire for any of these people whatsoever.

"I love you man."
"And I love you.  Because I've learned that platonic love can exist between two full grown men."

[DrZoidberg]

Quote

Touche...Maybe because you've never felt it? ^_^ I've felt love that was completely non-sexual towards a close girlfriend of mine...

moer liek boyfriend am i rite? pro tip, don't get all angsty, bill knows the score

[mouse_clicker]

Quote
"Love between mates is an illusion created so they'll have sex more often- true love is complete crap."

Are your parents and siblings your mates? If not, you quoted the wrong line. I think this is the one you wanted:

Quote
Love is a chemical reaction to insure the best upbringing for offspring- mothers are much more loving more often than not because they're supposed to be.

You're feeling comradery and empathy- you're simply extending the emotion design to help the success of the species to other people. Humans can do that.

[Bill Aurion]

*confusion subsided*

[mouse_clicker]

Another job well done.

[Ian Sane]

MC I think the reason we have different views on these subjects is because you're an athiest and I'm not.  The conclusions we're reaching all rely on the individual conclusion we've come to regarding the existance of God.  Thus we're not really going to go anywhere without religion getting into the arguement.  We also cannot persuade each other on these smaller issues without first persuading each other on that primary issue as these issues are all dependent on that.

[KDR_11k]

From what I understood human love lasts four years at most. It's possible to fall in love with the same partner again, but this seems to suggest that the human isn't naturally monogamous. Many animals stay together for the raising of the child and part ways afterwards.

Now, why does a part of humanity force monogamy on themselves? Hm, why do we enforce rules like "no porn or nudity for children" on ourselves (after all, the child has seen bare breasts shortly after its birth)? Why do we have other rituals like weddings, funerals, national anthems or pledges? There's no real reason for all that, humans just love to exact power by forcing others to behave in a certain way. The Alpha instinct. If your partner is tied to you for life you're exacting some form of power on him which satisfies your Alpha instinct. People buy "cool" things to show their superiority, people beat highscores and win games to show superiority and people live with honor show their superiority. It doesn't matter whether you consciously try to be better than others, you just feel good by doing so.

(I think one of the first people to push this theory was Nietzsche ("Der Wille zur Macht", before that book he assumed the basic instinct was procreation, however, those two seem to be pretty much identical. Power gives you control of partners and better genetic material). Previous philosophers assumed the human is driven by his intelligence and a rational being. Nietzsche  tried to prove this basic assumption wrong, which would invalidate any and all philosophy that came before him.)

[Uncle Rich AiAi]

I hope someone showed the couple a educational film.  Something like: "Fuzzy Bunny's Guide To You-Know-What"!

[PaLaDiN]

"From what I understood human love lasts four years at most."

Wow, somebody's bitter. Who was she?

[KDR_11k]

Dunno. Was second hand talk.

[mouse_clicker]

Ian: I guess you could say our disagreement lies within our religious beliefs, since when you don't believe in god you see man's place in the world and don't get arrogant in thinking we're anything special.

[Bill Aurion]

Quote
Originally posted by: mouse_clicker
Ian: I guess you could say our disagreement lies within our religious beliefs, since when you don't believe in god you see man's place in the world and don't get arrogant in thinking we're anything special.

Woah, wait a second...I believe in God and I feel the same way about mankind... ^_^

[mouse_clicker]

I never said *you* don't believe that way, just that atheists generally don't, almost as a rule of thumb. It's kind of like how all squares are rectangles but not all rectangles are squares.