Topic: GCN2 = "Revolution"

[Truthliesn1seyes]

Some are throwing around the idea of the multi processor could be used in conjunction with the Sharp 3d monitor.  Since Nintendo is a supporter of Sharp's developement of the 3d monitor (along with Sony, Namco, and countless others) some are speculating that the screen could come packed in with the Rev.  The screen is supposed to be able to display true 3d by displaying 2 images at once that can be seen by individual eyes thus eliminating the need of the 3d glasses we've all come to know.  There are some links to the Sharp monitor where you can see the companies supporting it but I'm too tired to find it right now though lol.  Myabe I'll post it up later.

[nemo_83]

if there are two processors it must mean that there is some new hardware, camera, screen, helmet, and or gyration that requires seperate comands.  also it could simply just be used to double the graphics and speed.  sony is rummored to be putting four cells in the ps3, sounds like things just got real complicated for developers.

[couchmonkey]

The idea of a 3D display is pretty nifty, but I imagine that it would cost an arm and a leg.  It's certainly nothing Sony or Microsoft could copy, though.

[Truthliesn1seyes]

The thing is that I believe Sony is using multi processors becuase they want their ps3 to be more than just a game system.  It will be a whole entertainment station.  As for Nintendo, I doulbt they'll use 2 processors just for the purpose of improving graphics.  Nintendo always creates its systems and controllers with detail.  If there are 2 processors on the Revolutiono, my guess would be that there is a purpose to it.

[Truthliesn1seyes]

Sorry for double posting but I have more info.  Over in the N-sider forums, a member provided the following link of a patent Nintendo filed.

http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.html&r=2%204&p=1&f=G&l=50&d=PG01&S1=nintendo.AS.&OS=an/nintendo&RS=AN/nintendo

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/mentallyerect/image1.jpg

The following is my thoery on what the patent is talking about.  If you look at the first image, you can notice one character has x,y,z labeled next to them. The x,y,z is representing the 3 axis that are used when refering to the third dimention in math. It seems that the top "frame" displays the 2d y and z axis while the bottom one, in relation to the top, displays the full 3d image (x,y,z). Take a look at this quote from the abstract.

"The first frame 77 is set so that selected objects 81 through 84 are positioned inside of the first frame 77 when viewed from a direction of the line of sight. Furthermore, the first frame 77 is deformed in accordance with movements of the selected objects 81 through 84. Specifically, when all of the selected objects 81 through 84 are a predetermined distance away from one side of the frame 77 when viewed in the direction of the line of sight, the side is moved toward the inside of the first frame 77, thereby deforming the first frame 77. "

What I get from that is that in the main frame (77, the bottom frame where I believe the characters would seem to be in 3d) when you move said characters ( 81-84) accross to the end of the frame, the image will, as they call it, distort. By distort, I believe they mean that the whole image will move on foward and the characters instead of being at the end of the frame, will then be in the beginning. An example I can think of is Animal Crossing or Zelda: Link to the Past, where the world is split into grids, when you move from one area to another, the camera would pan over to display the next grid. This is how I envision this 3d display. When you reach the end of the 3d frame, the frame would adjust to show the next grid.

Further along, they make mention of multiplayer games and how they could be inplemented into this display. They basically said the frame would expand much like a camera zooms out, in order to show the full playfeild and all playable characters.

Page 4 is just another demonstration of the 3d plane/"frame".

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/mentallyerect/image2.jpg

Page 7 seems to show the secome 2d plane that only displays the x and y axis thats slightly above the playing frame.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/mentallyerect/image3.jpg

The rest of the pages/images seem to show off how the frame would display mutliplayer games. Also, they mention coordinates alot within the images further establishing the idea of a true 3 dimentional plane since coordinates is a way to pinpoint areas in an x,y,z plane.

Other pages of note are 18, and 21-22 (descriptions of images on all pages)
18 shows what I believe to be the projection of the image through the screens

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v304/mentallyerect/image4.jpg

Another good quote is

"BACKGROUND OF THE INVENTION

[0001] 1. Field of the Invention

[0002] The present invention relates to game systems and game programs that cause a game space to be displayed on a display device and, more specifically, to a game system and a game program that changes a display area according to positions of objects. "

Well, thats how I interpretted what I saw and read off the patent. My guess is that this was originally thought up as an add-on for the gamecube but now is being moved on towards the Rev. The current rumors of a dual processor on a Rev could be to better display these 2 frames. I believe this is so becuase Nintendo always puts alot of thought into the design of their systems. They will not go wit a dual processor just to up the graphics, there has to be a purpose for the decision and I think this 3d display patent could be it.

Also, some on the other forum are arguing that this patent is in relation to Zelda:Four Swords.  Here's a quote from one of the other members there.

"1) Considering the GameCube is pictured...

2) Considering little guys with swords are pictured...

3) Considering the individuals who registered the patent worked on Four Swords Adventures....

4) Considering Four Swords Adventures uses a different screen setup to display player's screens... (thanks Z64)

5) The logical conclusion to come to would be that (sorry to poop on the parade) this has absolutely nothing directly to do with the Revolution -- but rather Four Swords Adventures on the Nintendo GameCube. That's not to say Nintendo won't utilize this technology for the next generation...but I highly doubt this patent is specifically for it."

My thoughts on this were.....
The Gamecube being pictured just makes me think this was an addon planned for the Gamecube originally. Remember, at one point, Nintendo said they wanted to extend the life of the Gamecube by providing add ons to enhance the experience.

The use of guys with swords in the pictures is just to better illustrate video games. Knights and dragons are commonly associated to games and fantasy. It's universal, when someone sees it, they picture role playing as a main character. They picture a game, board game or video game. If they had put a cruid drawing of a guy jumping and turtles or goombas on the plane, it'll be too specific to a particular game. The use of illustrations of guys with guns would be too violent. The guy with the sword, archer, pendent/item and dragon were just used for illustration purposes.

The tie ins with Zelda: Four Swords is there but I'm not completely sold on it. Zelda: FS was released June 7th and this patent was put forth on July 21st, a month later. Also, the images on the patent have a date on top for Jan 27th 2005. I'm not sure if thats the date the images were added onto the patent though. I hope someone can give me further info on this date. This just further supports my idea that this was created first as a Gamecube addon to extend its life but now is being expanded upon for an unknown (to us) purpose.

If you think about it, this can tie in to the Rev. A true 3d display can revolutionize things. They won't even have to match the graphics quality of the competition. High end graphics will not be able to compete with a true 3d display. The rumors so far are sudjesting that they are not using new tech but are using something that hasn't been applyed to games yet. Also, the talk of the dual processor makes me wonder. If Nintendo were to go with a dual processor design, there has to be a reason or purpose behind the move. The dual processor design is not just there to up graphics. The gyro/motion controller rumor also would fit into this type of gaming, moreso than on the tradition 3d games on a 2d television gaming.

Also, 3d can't be that far off as everyone claims. I remember playing a Sega fighting game at the arcades back in the 90s that used holograms to create a 3d display. The fighters would seem to stand out of the bottom screen. That was back in the 90s though, technology has advanced since then. Anyways, I'm just brainstorming, I'm not exactly sure what can or can not (realistically and economically) be done for a next gen home console.



 

[Ian Sane]

Would true 3D visuals require a different screen then a TV?  If you required a different screen the cost would be driven up if it was included.  And if it wasn't included the general public would freak out when they took their Revolution home and it wouldn't plug into their TV.

[Shy Guy]

"High end graphics will not be able to compete with a true 3d display"

I don't want to sound stupid (even though I know it's coming off that way...haha) but, what is the difference between true "3d display" and when games are rendered in 3d in this current generation such as RE 4?

[Truthliesn1seyes]

From what I read on the patent, I'm not sure if they will be using the Sharp LCD for this or a projector.  The last Image I posted on my previous post has what seems to be an initial piont (light ?) shining down through the top "frame" all the way down to the display "frame".  This leads me to think that there are implying a projector of sorts.  

Shy guy, when we speak of the 3d display we mean in actual 3d.  The difference from the 3d we have now, ie RE4, is that in RE4 the 3d is being displayed on the tv.  With the setup that I believe is being explained on the patent, the 3d will come out as if a hologram.  Any action going on within the game will be displayed right in front of you.  Just imagine Star Wars and how they have hologram messages where the person would seem to come out of the ground and be in front of you (although in Star Wars its in a much larger scale than what seems to be mentioned in this patent)

[norebonomis]

um yeah, i can't see any of those images, photobucket has serious bandwidth limits, use tinypic.com, fo shizzle.

[Truthliesn1seyes]

Do you mean the images don't show up or they are showing up too small?  Also, IGN.Cube has some of the images up also and a short article on this rumor if you care to go see.  The links have been working for me, they just tend to show up small where then I'd have to click on the risize icon on the bottom right of the image.

EDIT: Okay, I noticed what was wrong with the address I proviced.  The links should be fixed now.  Also, I got some new ideas to throw in about this patent but I'll post that in a few, dont wan't to keep double posting and re editing lol.

[Bill Aurion]

Just so it's known, the pictures that Ninty uses in their patents are purely coincedental...A little guy with a sword does not mean it has to be Zelda-related, and just because a Gamecube is shown does not mean it will be, or used to be, for the Gamecube...What would they have there, a Rev?  

[Spak-Spang]

I don't like the idea of a true 3D game system.  

Here is why:

One of two things would happen.

1)  You will have to wear goggles, or Nintendo will find away to make that illusion without goggles (with may be impossible) then the system is just one big gimmick from the get go.

2)If it actually projects a 3D world up then I would be worried that the view would be too limited because of how little space would be available to view the image.  As well would I have to design my room around the system and the image for me to have the perfect experience?  Too many variables to make it viable to play.

Something like this would actually be great for an arcade system, but I have my doubts as for an actual home system.

[Truthliesn1seyes]

3d display without goggles is already possible, look up the Sharp 3d lcd screen.  Also, am I the only one willing to go through the "hassle" in order to experience true 3d gaming?  Is everyone so content with playing games on a tv that they won't accept 3 dimensional gaming unless its presented to them in a perfect solution with no problems whatsoever.  If you think about it, today's set up for entertainment will never work once 3d displays are the norm.  Thats becuase todays entertainment setups are designed around tvs.  There is going to be a hassle when converting over to true 3d displays.  Theres no way around it.

Anyways, a 17 inch display isn't too small as long as the view is panned out to where you can see a good amount of the playing feild.  It may not be up close and detailed as we are used to but its good enough considering its true 3d.  

EDIT: Well after another thorough read through, this time using the images whenever the text called for it, I've come to realize that the naysayers are right, this has nothing to do with a 3d display for Rev.  They are just talking about a specific prog for a camera angle.  I don't see what the point of the patent is.  I'm sure Sony (or any other company) can find a loophole in all this and create practically the same thing for their games.  

[nemo_83]

sounds like the next Zelda's title will read Four Horsemen.  i've been saying for years that LttP had the most ideal camera for a game.  the pattent sounds like the camera will move around exposing the surrounding areas as the focus character or characters do.  in other words the character or characters stay center frame allowing you to see all around you.  


by the way, did you provide a link for that cube.ign article http://cube.ign.com/articles/583/583559p1.html

there are some things on this board though that they didn't include in their speculation

they barely touched on new sensation output technologies built into the controller like new rumble, hot/cold, buzzing, and speakers in controllers

they also didn't offer any opinions on what would replace the dpad or face buttons, they only speculated it had something to do with gyration which hopefully it does but they still didn't offer an answer as to what they think might go in place of those missing parts.  they did mention a track ball, but what about mice wheels, floating analog sticks, touch pads, or a flat disk you rotate with your thumb?  

[Hostile Creation]

Thank goodness.  That seemed like a very doubtable idea to me.  It could have interesting possibilities, a game like that, but it'd be a huge mistake to make an entire console based off of that.

[Bill Aurion]

i've been saying for years that LttP had the most ideal camera for a game.

This describes pretty much every 2d Zelda...

[jimbojim]

unless 3d screen become the standard as a television, I don't see Revolution using something different than the well-known tv or maybe revolution is just a console with regular games and all (an upgrade from gamecube) but with some add-ons like gadgets to enhance gameplay.

[PaLaDiN]

You guys are forgetting that the Revolution will be compatible with a normal computer monitor.

How about we at least remember the confirmed facts.

[nemo_83]

when i think about holograms i think about how the view would be similar to LttP with objects with form presented in shallow depth but we would not be able to view the game in anyway from behind the character or in the eyes of the character.  by that i mean that there could not be a horizon line.  the game camera would be top down just like LttP rather than behind the character like OoT.  instead of having a flat screen allowing us to look ahead into the distance we would best play games from a bird's eye view.  i think this is better because it takes out the space, makes things graphic, and allows players to judge true depth in games.  it means games would return to their 2d perspective, players would suround the projector able to see from any direction, and camera problems would nolonger exist.  an other option would be a vr helmet that projects small scale holograms before the eye that have the illusion of great size and depth at a fraction of the cost of releasing one big unit that people don't have room for.

interesting thing about this new pattent though is the mention of warping the image so that you could have the area the character is in focused upon from a top down view towards the center of the image, but all of the edges of the projection would be curved upward like the lense of the eye so that even though one's view is above the characters one can still see an illusionistic/ traditional projection of the horizon line viewpoint.  this could be used in shooters to get rid of tunnel vision.  in other words you have your hologram projector creating fully 3d scultural characters in a space that has shallow depth surrounded on all sides by a panoramic 2d display of the game world just a normal tv would do.  the projector, if it weren't a vr helmet, could be round (you rotate the device or just the projections to change the view point, hence the name revolution) so that the 2d panoramic display of the horizon would be continous.

[Talon]

Everyone has seemed to assume that the whole idea of Nintendo's 'Revolution' is about the consumer....

Yes I'm sure Nintendo will give us new ways in which to play games like the DS and the bongo's etc...

But has anyone thought about the Revolution might have something to do with the development of games?

We all know that the cost to develop games is increasing to a point where a lot of smaller developers just arent going to be able to afford to make games as attractive and expansive as the big game players.

Maybe as part of Nintendo's Revolution they have found someway or created a stratedgy to lower the development cost of games. I do relise this is a big if, but if they can produce games of the same if not higher quality (imo they are always of higher quality) as their competitors in the Next Gen at a cheaper cost, it will mean bigger profits for them as well as a nice incentive for smaller developers to jump on the nintendo band wagon. (The more the merrier)

With cheaper development costs it might also entice some of the developers that have practically snubbed Nintendo in this round to port (Ports may not be as good as the original but its still a good selling point) if not develop games for the N5.

While im on the subject of developers, Nintendo may have improved relations with other big name companies that have currently not supported them, and the 'Revolution' may also have something to do with franchises moving from the other companies across to Nintendo.

I believe that new ways to interact with video games is only part of the Revolution... Cant wait to see what their whole take on this Revolution is.

[odifiend]

Talon:  While that would be great and I hope is true to some extent, why would they advertise the Revolution openly to the public, most of whom are consumers, if that were the case?

[couchmonkey]

Talon: I'm assuming that it's going to be consumer-focused because Nintendo has been talking about coming up with new ways to play games and telling us that it's taking the D-pad and buttons away and Iwata is constantly saying that the market is tiring of traditional games.  Easier development doesn't explain any of that.

I'd also like a "revolution" in cheap game development, but a couple of decades of research into software engineering says it's not going to happen.  Still, that would definitely be appreciated as well.

[norebonomis]

http://joystiq.com/entry/1234000310030297/


i've got it i've got it i've got it!

revolution = wireless HUB for wifi devices... including DSbrowser, DSemail, DSonlineplay, DSphone and of course. zelda. i dunno, random. shoot me.  

[Ian Sane]

Gamespot's got a blurb about the Revolution from Ken Toyota (I wonder if anyone has teased him by saying stuff like "where's your driver side airbag?").  It looks to be the same thing that norebonomis linked to only in more detail.

Like all Nintendo quotes regarding the Revolution there's the traditional "scare the crap out of Ian" line: "We don't have the slightest intention of making a machine that follows the same path as conventional game hardware."

Slightest intention?  Geez that sounds harsh.  That sounds like our way or the highway.  "Slighest intention" to me sounds like "we don't plan at all to accomodate traditional game design".  Every time I get myself into the mindset that, like the DS, the Revolution will allow for both wacky and traditional game design Nintendo pops one of these quotes on me and fills my head with Virtual Boys.

If Nintendo doesn't have the slighest intention of being conventional then a lot of gamers might not have the slighest intention of purchasing a Revolution.

Evolution = good.  Compete change for no reason = bad.

[Bill Aurion]

Like all Nintendo quotes regarding the Revolution there's the traditional "scare the crap out of Ian" line: "We don't have the slightest intention of making a machine that follows the same path as conventional game hardware."

UH OH , being different is SCARY...Evolution is boring and pointless...It's called the Revolution for a reason, and I'm waiting for something that is more than just the same old conventional gameplay with a facial...