Topic: Nintendo isn't the problem..you are.

[The Omen]

As much as I would like to believe that Nintendo fans are this knowledgable group of gaming elite, i'm finding the opposite to be true.  I just don't get why some of these games don't sell on the GC.  Now, i'm barring obvious games like Hitman 2, Baldurs Gate and the like, in which Nintendo were given shoddy ports late.  But games that are released on all 3 consoles at the same time.  Like BG&E.  I know it didn't sell well on any of the 3, but why wouldn't we Nintendo fans embrace it?  It's just about as close to a Nintendo title as there is, yet we ignored it.  Hell, even F-zero didn't sell all that well.  Prince of persia, again what a typical Ninty fan supposedly likes.  And don't give me we know whats sh!t ands whats not.  Obviously, you don't.  And also don't give me the "First party titles are so good, they overshadow all 3rd party games."  Theres how many must have first party games released each year by Nintendo?  4? 5? And thats being generous.  Eternal Darkness deserved so much more than selling, what,  200k?  RE sold well, but Zero didn't.  The only games that have sold great, as expected , were probably Metroid Prime, WW, SMS, and SSMB:M.  There are many opinions on this, but I think we think we're the gaming elitists, the fore fathers of gaming.  Nintendo created all, and we will dismiss any game released thats deemed beneath us.  So before we bitch about losing 3rd parties, and even 2nd parties now, look at your library of games, and realize you're not open to try new types of games.  You can't be, because theres simply not enough exclusive content to make up your entire collection.  There must be some games that appeal to you other than Nintendos, right?  Or maybe PS2 fans are the real fans, and we are the little niche Nintendo market.  PS2 fans often buy what we consider crap, but back 15 years ago, without all these online and Mag. reviews, we had to buy what interested us, just by reading the box and the Nintendo Power pamphlet.  And we couldn't trade them in, they were ours forever.  That made you finish the game, actually experience the game to its fullest instead of trading it in in 2 weeks.  Some of the best games I bought were games I took a chance on, and WON me over.  Were they perfect?  Nope, some were even below average.  But I enjoyed the game anyway, because it wasnt so easy to dismiss.  You actually grew with the game.  Now, it appears the PS2 userbase has the right idea.  Buying games you want, no matter how crappy somebody else thinks they are, is being the real gamer, not the casual gamer.  Buying what you know is good, or will be good, and little else...well that sounds pretty damn casual to me.

[Berny]

Hey, I *DO* buy games I think are good. Those games just so happen to be, for the most part, Nintendo games. I've heard good stuff about those other "sleeper hits" (ED being one that I *DID* purchase) and I plan on at least renting them this summer. The prices of games although not as high as in the SNES era are still a little steep for my wallet. I have to be very selective in the games I buy.

[mouse_clicker]

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Theres how many must have first party games released each year by Nintendo? 4? 5?

That's $200-250 right there- do YOU have a quarter of a thousand dollars to just throw away at games? Most of us don't.

Aside from that, I largely agree with you- a lot of Nintendo fans are really stick up snobs who only want the best, which I can understand, but not at the cost of quality that isn't entirely perfect, or isn't made by a company you've expected perfection from.  

[Perfect Cell]

I dont know what to say. Ive got F-Zero POP and ED in my collection.  The Current Mainstream Nintendo Fan is simply not the Nintendo fan of yesteryear. The Nintendo Fan of Yesteryear is currently a PS2 fan simple as that i guess.

[Ian Sane]

There's nothing I hate more than when someone writes something from the point of view that I did or didn't do something and that's why something happened.  I DID buy ED and I loved it so how the hell can I be blamed for low sales?  I didn't buy BG&E or POP but I bought something else instead that interested me more.  I don't have the time or the money to buy every Cube game that's even remotely interesting.  I buy several games a year both third and first party so I'm doing my "duty" or whatever.

The problem is there just isn't a big enough userbase on the Cube to buy all of the titles released.  THAT is Nintendo's fault.  They didn't convince enough people to buy Cubes within the first year.  I and virtually no one else on the forum have done anything "wrong".  There just aren't enough of us.

"Buying what you know is good, or will be good, and little else...well that sounds pretty damn casual to me."

Actually it's the exact opposite of casual.  It's what an informed consumer does.  If there's a game that I'm unsure about I take the risk... by renting it.  And most of the time it's not worth buying.  With Skies of Arcadia Legends and Ikaruga it was.

[The Omen]

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That's $200-250 right there- do YOU have a quarter of a thousand dollars to just throw away at games? Most of us don't.

While I agree that its a pain in the ass to budget, people must not realize that those games will be out the next year, and the year after that.  And buying it a year late would still be considered a sale.  I buy just about 6-8 games a year, I guess, and often times I'll pass over a game, like SMS , for instance, knowing that i'll buy it some other time.  I bought RE instead of SMS, and was fine with that.  I didn't even get ED until February 03.  Full price though.

[Mario]

Well i didn't buy BG&E because i had no room on my memory card for it's ten million block save file, i didn't buy Prince of Persia because Sony got time exclusivity on it for months here, and when it just finally got released on GCN here i didn't really care about it, and I had more important games (to me) to spend my money on, like MGS:TTS. I have plenty of third party games, most of them exclusive, but i still have some multiplatform ones, like Timesplitters 2, Soul Calibur 2, Tony Hawk Underground and Sega Soccer Slam. Eh, whatever. *shrugs shoulders*

[mouse_clicker]

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While I agree that its a pain in the ass to budget, people must not realize that those games will be out the next year, and the year after that.

Hm, that's a good point- I didn't think of that.

[Berny]

Isn't it sales of the first month that really count though? That's what it seems everyone looks at when they want to look at the success of a game.

[The Omen]

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There's nothing I hate more than when someone writes something from the point of view that I did or didn't do something and that's why something happened. I DID buy ED and I loved it so how the hell can I be blamed for low sales?

Oh, so I should just interview every GC owner?  No, we go with a generalization,a majority, and obviously, this wasn't targeted to you.  So why take it that way?  Pat yourself on the back, and stop acting like everything put into print , which includes the word you, means you specifically.

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Isn't it sales of the first month that really count though? That's what it seems everyone looks at when they want to look at the success of a game.

Yes, because thats what the PR department for the likes of EA and Capcom, and Nintendo tell us.   You think Pink Floyd was bitching about Dark side of the moon because it was still on the charts 15 years later?  Its all money, and that first month sh!t is for hype purposes.
 

[Ian Sane]

"While I agree that its a pain in the ass to budget, people must not realize that those games will be out the next year, and the year after that."

Third parties don't take that into account though.  Usually they declare a game a low seller after only a few months.  I got Ikaruga nearly a year after it came out but I doubt Atari has even noticed that sale.  Plus I buy a lot of games used which don't count towards total sales.  Again that's just being a smart consumer.  Why pay more money if I don't have to?  In fact if I don't buy a game when it's first released if I buy it later I almost always will get it used.

Maybe third parties should do more than just look at sales figures.  A game can gain a strong cult fanbase months after it's released that can result in stronger sales for a sequel.  ED2 for example would likely sell much better than the first game because it's gained a strong reputation on the internet.  It's not going to sell huge but it would likely make a profit.  Ebay would be good for research too.  If a game is selling for really high amounts because it's become rare it may be worthwhile to re-release.  Skies of Arcadia recieved no advertising and was largely ignored when it was released yet it remains highly praised and there are a fair bit of gamers who want to buy it but can't.

[yellowfellow]

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Oh, so I should just interview every GC owner? No, we go with a generalization,a majority, and obviously, this wasn't targeted to you. So why take it that way? Pat yourself on the back, and stop acting like everything put into print , which includes the word you, means you specifically.

if you want to go with a majority then you should probably talk about how GCN owners are to blame because they are too involved with pre-school and going potty and the like...

[The Omen]

Ian , I agree with most of everything you said.  But, what if more than just you bought Ikaruge that week?  What if a few hundred or even thousand bought it?, I assure they notice.  Being in some of these marketing meetings, I can tell you its usually an 18 month window.  If we saw a slight increase in sales14 months afetr release, we'd actually get some print ads out there, maybe one more TV spot.  All because there was an increase of 3 percent in sales.  Games are a business, and I swear, there are two dopes looking over 'Freedom Fighters', seeing if the slight increase in sales, be it from 25 to 150 in a week, can be turned into even more.  We used to call it reincarnation.  I know it sounds crazy, but they do notice.  Maybe not EA, who doesn't have to worry, but I bet you SK followed EDs progress for 2 years.  Also,  I do not, if I can help it, buy used games.  Its ruining the industry.  Simple way to wipe it out is lowering the price of new games to 34.99 or 29.99.  Thats the only way to get sales back to their normal stature.  

[The_GameCube_Dude]

I believe that it's Nintendo's fault for the most part, because only hardcore Nintendo fans own a GameCube, the people who have support Ninetndo for sometime, and those people are the ones who only buy Nintendo's own games.

Nintendo need to be promoting the GameCube to wider auidence, casual gamers, like Sony has been doing, through advertising (there's a stradegy Nintendo, advertise.......). It's up to Nintendo themselves to create a wider auidence on thier consoles.

I don't think you can blame Nintendo fans, it's Nintendo's role to make sure third party games work sell on thier systems, or third party games on a Nintendo console will become non-existant.

I support the third parties and the GCN titles they produce, I own Beyond Good and Evil, Prince of Persia, RE and RE0 and a lot more 3rd party games, but for the most part, my GameCube collection consisits of Nintendo games cause they are the best!! hehehe....
 

[Mannypon]

finally someone who isnt blaming nintendo as everyone is always quick to do.  In light of what has just happened wit SK and how everyone is b*tchin that nintendo is losing so many great companies.  Remember this, SK, Rare and anyone else that used to be exclusive to nintendo were great and only great while with nintendo.  Rare's work before being with nintendo is battle toads and rc pro am that I can think of, good games but nothing amazing.  There quality qot up when they started to work with nintendo.  Rare leaves nintendo and goes to MS, and what do we have? Ghouls somethin or other, garbage.  SK's game before nintendo that I can think of, Legacy of Kain for ps, good game, but nothin amazing.  They got together with nintendo and we get ED and MGS (ED being the more original and unique, worth mentioning)  They are leaving now and I dont know exactly where they'll be goin but we'll see if their quality slips.  Metriod was great and all and I know how everyone likes to praise retro for it, but remember, nintendo had a hand in the process and at one point had most of the staff fired and rebuilt in order to make sure the game came out the way it did.  All I'm gettin at is that nintendo is not at fault and what the omen says is true.  We drive the industry and decide on what makes it and what doesnt.  The majority of us dont buy anything besides nintendo's work.  I for one am lucky enough to own all 3 systems but when I get a chance to get a mutliplatform game, I make sure to get it for gamecube to help the cuase (and becuase I'm a fanboy lol)  Regardless of what anyone says about nintendo and that their quality has been slippin the past few yrs, there games are still one of a kind and you cant find anything with that same feeling in any of the other three systems.  Besides, you have to take into account that nintendo has been alocating resources to oversee alot of other companies in the past few yrs so its only natural that their games have slipped a lil bit.  Unlike Sony and MS, Nintendo has the responsibility of making the systems sellers games themselves and build the lineups for their systems.  When a new nintendo system is announced, everyone is looking first at what nintendo is offering then move on to what the third party is offering IMO.

[the_zombie_luke]

The whole third party situation is mostly Nintendo's fault. I don't see how it is the GameCube fans fault that Nintendo decided it would be smarter to make sure their own studios got development kits at launch, while they didn't rally support from many third parties early on, and get many third parties development kits, instead of relying on themselves and Rare.  


Edit:This thread title is so condescending and insulting. For your information, the majority of my games are third party, and GameCube owners aren't different from anyone else. If you put out Soul Caliber 2's and REmake caliber games, they will be successful. Sure, many great third party games were ignored, but Sony is in a similar position. Some PS2 owners gravitate toward Madden and GTA, while ICO and Mark of Kri were ignored. So was Sly Cooper. In that case, Sony is in the opposite position, but still one where good games are not selling, so maybe I should say that PS2 owners are multiplatform elitists.    

[Infernal Monkey]

I can't rent out GameCube games, because every video store here is anti-Nintendo. Nintendo refuse to put out demo discs, and I'm not some sort of cash man, who's made out of notes and goes to the toilet bogging out coins. I have to be careful with third party titles. I infact have more third party titles in my GameCube collection than first, but the greater majority are exclusive to the system (Bomberman Generation, Billy Hatcher, Bloody Roar: PF. Thar' be three b's on the shore)

Plus it's becoming harder and harder to buy third party games on GC in Australia. Finding Harvest Moon or Puyo Pop Fever in a store is like trying to find Blinx in Mario Sunshine.

[DrkStarTTD]

hold up i have 26 gc games and alot of them are from 3rd parties i got ts2, rs:2 and 3, both need for seed ames, 007 agent under fire and yes i got bg&e(great game). i think every one on this board has 3rd party gamesbut we are the few that hear about these games because of lack of advertiseing by nintendo what normal person would bie Bg&e because it was on the self the name is horrible.

[ThePerm]

i bought prince of persia and couldnt afford bg&e...omen how old are you? Olkder then alot of us? So yiu have more money? So you can afford more games? Thought so

[Darc Requiem]

Sorry I'm not the problem. Nintendo is. I do my part and I go out and buy all the quality GC games that I can afford, and thats on top of my GBA purchases. Its Nintendo's job the crack open that 6 billion dollar warchest and make the necessary investments to ensure the success of their consoles. If Nintendo would get off their ass and actually attempt to increase their userbase and broaden its audience they wouldn't be having this problems. From a business standpoint you are going to do whats best for your company. Sony has the largest userbase and MS whores its self out to any third party that will have it. Nintendo has the best leverage of the Big 3 and they refuse to use it. Nintendo may not be able to match MS's money hats but they aren't dependent on licensing fees as Sony and MS. Nintendo should be charging the lowest licensing fees to attract more money and the resulting higher userbase would cause higher sales of their games and more than make up the difference. Not only that they'd severly cut into Sony and MS's revenues. Nintendo could given even lower licensing fees for exclusive titles. They could do what Sony did with its online service. Sony didn't spend the 500 million that MS did. They just provided their 3rd parties with the necessary software to produce online titles for their console and made there network adapter readily available. Nintendo has done neither. Nintendo has been and continues to say one think and do another. Hmm...sounds like Nintendo is the problem to me.

Darc Requiem

[DrZoidberg]

enormous unbroken textblocks make my browser (more like stupid intarweb exploder lol linux) cry.

[Catbus Is Taken]

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Originally posted by: The Omen
As much as I would like to believe that Nintendo fans are this knowledgable group of gaming elite, i'm finding the opposite to be true.  I just don't get why some of these games don't sell on the GC.  Now, i'm barring obvious games like Hitman 2, Baldurs Gate and the like, in which Nintendo were given shoddy ports late.  But games that are released on all 3 consoles at the same time.  Like BG&E.  I know it didn't sell well on any of the 3, but why wouldn't we Nintendo fans embrace it?  It's just about as close to a Nintendo title as there is, yet we ignored it.  Hell, even F-zero didn't sell all that well.  Prince of persia, again what a typical Ninty fan supposedly likes.  And don't give me we know whats sh!t ands whats not.  Obviously, you don't.  And also don't give me the "First party titles are so good, they overshadow all 3rd party games."  Theres how many must have first party games released each year by Nintendo?  4? 5? And thats being generous.  Eternal Darkness deserved so much more than selling, what,  200k?  RE sold well, but Zero didn't.  The only games that have sold great, as expected , were probably Metroid Prime, WW, SMS, and SSMB:M.  There are many opinions on this, but I think we think we're the gaming elitists, the fore fathers of gaming.  Nintendo created all, and we will dismiss any game released thats deemed beneath us.  So before we bitch about losing 3rd parties, and even 2nd parties now, look at your library of games, and realize you're not open to try new types of games.  You can't be, because theres simply not enough exclusive content to make up your entire collection.  There must be some games that appeal to you other than Nintendos, right?  Or maybe PS2 fans are the real fans, and we are the little niche Nintendo market.  PS2 fans often buy what we consider crap, but back 15 years ago, without all these online and Mag. reviews, we had to buy what interested us, just by reading the box and the Nintendo Power pamphlet.  And we couldn't trade them in, they were ours forever.  That made you finish the game, actually experience the game to its fullest instead of trading it in in 2 weeks.  Some of the best games I bought were games I took a chance on, and WON me over.  Were they perfect?  Nope, some were even below average.  But I enjoyed the game anyway, because it wasnt so easy to dismiss.  You actually grew with the game.  Now, it appears the PS2 userbase has the right idea.  Buying games you want, no matter how crappy somebody else thinks they are, is being the real gamer, not the casual gamer.  Buying what you know is good, or will be good, and little else...well that sounds pretty damn casual to me.

I know this post is sh!t.

[KDR_11k]

Sorry, but 60 Euros is too much for a new game and 30 is too much for a budget title. If they were demanding less I'd think less before buying a game, but at that price I usually only buy games that seem like something I'd like and will not experiment.
I was very reluctant to get Eternal Darkness, after all I got the cube because I had enough of those "run around in dark rooms and kill everything that moves" games (which was also the reason I chose SMS over TS2 or RE when buying my GC) and I didn't like the genre in general. The screenshots were repelling. I got it because it was cheap and while I don't regret that purchase I wouldn't call ED one of the more important (i.e. best) games of this generation.
Whenever I see a game it triggers an association or feeling (dunno what to call it). The association triggered by most third party (and "mature" games in general) is a negative one. This association is usually stronger than any oppinion I build via reviews and usually determines whether I buy a game or not. BG&E triggered this in a negative way, meaning that whenever I think about buying it, my subconscience tells me not to and I look for something else. Pretty much every game (even first party ones) that came out lately got a "negative", took me some willpower to get Harvest Moon after my mother wanted to buy me a game (and boy, do I hate NoE's QA for letting this game pass). This association seems to be caused by the way a game is presented prior to release, for example Killer 7 is "positive" while Too Human is "negative".

On the other hand, Nintendo's quality seems to fall. After playing through Metroid Zero Mission (four hours on first try! I needed 16 in Prime to get to the boss and about eight in Super to get to Ridley!) I felt this game wasn't only missing something but did some things really wrong. The bosses didn't seem to be designed with Super Missiles in mind, hell, I killed Ridley by barely moving and blasting him with everything I had! The power bombs I didn't even get. The best games on GC seem to be third party ones. Viewtiful Joe, Soul Calibur II, ...

[foolish03]

Nintendo made the mistake of letting its userbase slip away to sony and microsoft.  In their early stages they lacked the aggressiveness needed to come out on top.  When they realized the mistakes they made, it was virtually impossible to change their position.  Instead they are left straddling behind with microsoft(barely holding the monstrous beast off).

[manunited4eva22]

Look, it is not my responsibility to become a fanboy to support nintendo.  I buy games I enjoy, and whether they have nintendo's name on it is irrelevant to me.  I just happen to be loyal to nintendo because of the quality of the games they make.  If there is something wrong with my enjoying games not based on the company making them, but on the quality of them, then why do any of us even buy videogames?

P.S. I have 6 nintendo titles.