Author Topic: The rumored and newsed specwar  (Read 4420 times)

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Offline ThePerm

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The rumored and newsed specwar
« on: April 02, 2004, 08:07:37 PM »
as of recently i can't get my facts straight..i just can't remember who is working with who.

anyways in the mix there are a few companies
Nintendo , IBM, ATI, NVIDIA, Sony, Microsoft

anyways who is with who supposedly?

so far
Nintendo with IBM/ATI
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Offline Berto2K

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RE:The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2004, 08:13:41 PM »
Sony and IBM

MS and ATI/IBM
*last i heard
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Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2004, 08:15:06 PM »
I believe Toshiba also has a hand in the Cell processor.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #3 on: April 03, 2004, 02:55:50 AM »
Some say Sony runs with ATI as well. I say the "Cell" or "Grid" is the worst idea since... Ah, I dunno, the last, big, overhyped piece of useless technology.

Offline - NintendoFan -

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RE:The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #4 on: April 03, 2004, 08:16:23 AM »
Well, here's some disscussion about the cell CPU over at the T-Break forums.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2004, 09:22:17 AM »
Quote

Some say Sony runs with ATI as well. I say the "Cell" or "Grid" is the worst idea since... Ah, I dunno, the last, big, overhyped piece of useless technology.


I think the concept of the Cell processor is great, but I think sony's a loon to try an incorporate it into gaming- it just doesn't work that way.
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Offline Draygaia

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RE: The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2004, 01:58:23 PM »
Everybody is working with each other except the competitors.  Nvidia is out of there.  C'mon Nintendo take advantage of that!  Use them!
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2004, 10:09:34 PM »
What would Nintendo want from NVidia? ATI is better, cheaper and a long standing business partner of Nintendo's.

Offline mouse_clicker

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RE:The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2004, 12:35:40 PM »
Well, ArtX is a long standing business partner of Nintendo's, or rather is made up almost entirely of long standing business partners of Nintendo's.
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Offline manunited4eva22

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RE: The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2004, 04:40:03 PM »
I heard of some rumors saying sony had asked nvidia on help with the cell graphics synthesizer, but thats about it.

The cell thing is the future of pcs kdr, multithreading is for better or worse how it looks to be going.  Besides, this isn't all that new.  One of the Wildcat OpenGL cards has around 2,000 very small cores on the chip.

Offline Termin8Anakin

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RE: The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2004, 05:30:50 PM »
What is the Cell processor anyway, and why wouldn't it do well in the gamin sector?
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2004, 08:40:39 PM »
manunited: In a demonstration of SMP with 16 playstation 2s two or four of them were required just for load balancing. A high number of processors doesn't necessarily make games faster. In fact almost no game supports multiprocessing. The PS2 is a multiprocessor architecture and nobody can fully utilize it. Multiprocessing (and heavy multithreading) adds a lot more possible errors to the whole job and costs a lot of performance to handle. Your average game can be split up in two ways: One thread per game component (audio, video, physics, control, ...), which is what games currently do, or one thread per entity (enemy, player, projectile, etc), which would create thousands of threads and demand a powerful processor just to ive the work to the rest. Now imagine you're trying to load something and there are two load processes at the same time. Since they're asynchronous and maybe even on different CPUs you'd have a hell of a job coordinating both accesses. Thread interaction in realtime environments can cause trouble with e.g. two threads modifying one object, etc.

This is not a problem in supercomputers, since those don't calculate in realtime, but have a predetermined amount of data which has to be processed. User interaction doesn't happen often and can take time to handle, in a game you'd expect the game to react now, not in five seconds. The whole interaction deal makes the data unreliable, so you can't just throw data at a processor and look again when it's done, the data changes and likely invalidates any results the processor has at that time.

Termin8: The Cell (apparently renamed to Grid) is a scalable multiprocessor that Sony plans to use in any and all devices they manufacture. In theory you can throw any number of those processors at a device and use more where more processing power is required. Supercomputers use similar setups. Unfortunately power consumption and heat production rise with the number of processors as well and each individual unit has to be less powerful than a normal CPU built at the same time (despite what Sony claims) unless you feel comfortable installing an industrial-grade cooling system into a games console that has to run in the living room (and therefore be less noisy than a PC that runs in a work room or office environment). Sony claims they can produce a console that is many (1000) times more powerful than any other home computer on the market. We all remember their claims for the PS2, though.

Offline manunited4eva22

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RE: The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2004, 03:29:35 PM »
KDR: You don't have to lecture to me about the ways a compiler works, I know enough about them to know how they work. My comments about where the industry are heading are fact, yours are complaints because most compilers have problems working with such an architecture.  Why are there so many problems?  1) Most compilers have almost all been designed around single threads, especially in only workstation and down markets, so you are asking a dog that is quite old to do new tricks. 2) This is relatively new to everyone.  When supercomputers are built, they are almost always set in stone as to what they are going to do.  Whether it be nuclear simulation, weather, whatever it is, but the task is usually able to be compiled to.  
However, many of those reasons are are pretty much gone or becoming close to gone.

The thing that irks me the most about your responce is the complaint about AMP.  It is nothing all that new, and has become very well documented in it's set up.

On heat: You are messing with how this is set up.  These are chips that were designed at .18micron being run at 65NM (.065micron).  There is a reason the heatload is significantly lower.  As well as this, the asynchronous model allows for each processor to do only so much work per thread.  

The fact that supercomputers use tons and tons of heat is irrelevant here.  Those are designed around larger chips, designed to output as much heat without any other factors considered.  That is a situation where each chip can very easily output 150 watts.  They are cooled by around 300MW of cooling for god sakes.

Offline KDR_11k

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RE: The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #13 on: April 11, 2004, 09:00:51 AM »
(sorry for the late reply, was on vacation)

Wasn't sure how much you knew about the whole deal, so I played it safe.

The whole micron deal doesn't matter a lot, they probably calculated with 65nm when deciding on the number and power of chips used in the PS3.

Whether you have multiple, weaker processors or one big one isn't that important for the heat levels we can have in home devices. Splitting the thing might help with cooling (since you have more surface), but the overall heat output will remain the same (and heat is pretty much the main limiting factor for processor speeds these days).

The argument that asynchronous processing will allow for sub-100% loads isn't a good one, after all that means the processor isn't used to its full potential. What good is a powerful architecture if you can only use its full power for a few seconds until it overheats? You have to expect top loads for hours on ends unless you really hate your tech support staff.

Offline kirby_killer_dedede

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RE:The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2004, 10:38:06 AM »
Last I heard, ATI and IBM are working with all three of the first parties.
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Offline KDR_11k

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RE: The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2004, 11:16:13 AM »
Yeah, some dispute ATI's connection with Sony, seeing that Sony attempts to make their own weird chip design (I wonder if they add Shaders this time?).

Offline manunited4eva22

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RE: The rumored and newsed specwar for new systems.
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2004, 04:17:11 PM »
I would expect them to have to, unless they really feel like falling flat on their face.  As for CELL, who knows how well the Compilers will work, so it's a wait until we see some demos.