Topic: SK developing next Zelda

[Don'tHate742]

Didn't I say its not a hack n slash, read the post before you criticize, plus its an opinion.

[Ian Sane]

That whole rage meter stuff is a neat idea but I don't think it fits in a Zelda game.  Plus the whole concept of a "mature" Zelda is misinterpreted by a lot of people.  Most of the time when people throw around the terms "realistic" or "mature" in regards to the Zelda franchise we mean not a cartoon like Wind Waker.  We mean like Ocarina of Time which was not really a realistic or mature game, just a more realistic and more mature game than Wind Waker.

I just want something with a style and mood similar to the N64 Zeldas.  In my opinion Wind Waker overcompensates on being family friendly.

[Syl]

I personally think that both OOT and Majora's Masks were designed with the cartoon theme in mind to begin with, they just didn't have the hardware to pull it off.  Look at them (espicially OOT) they aren't nearly as "realistic" as some people believed they were.
I'm sure that the official art has something to do with this however.

[Ocarina Blue]

Quote
Originally posted by: KDR_11k
Because any attempts at preventing children from buying games like GTA III and Manhunt were blocked as "violations of free speech" and selling porn falls under the same broad definition of "free speech"...

Breaches of Human Rights can be justified (ligitimatley or otherwise) through the concept that the breach protects the rights of others e.g. jailing someone removes their right to freedom, but it will protect other's rights if the person being jailed would have otherwise commited a crime.

An example of this applied to games can be found here:

Quote
the freedom of expression is outweighed by likelihood of injury to the public good that could result from this game's availability.

The word 'mature' is branded around too much. I don't just mean it's used incorrectly, I mean it's completley out of context and has lost the entirety of it's original meaning. The ratings authourity uses the phrases on the boxes to describe the correct audience, not the game. Mature is intended to mean that the people who play the game should be mature (i.e. old) enough not to take it's content to heart or whatever. The fact the embolded words switch between nouns and adjectives doesn't help the misconception.

I'm personally happy with both the cel-shading and with EAD developing the console Zeldas. It's been so much of a struggle to push acceptance of the WW graphic style, I really couldn't see Nintendo changing their mind. It's too late to stop now.

[ThePerm]

well heres an idea..just because its a zelda game doesnt mean it has to be called zelda, its possible a game could be made without a specific rating and differ fro mthe rest of the series as far as content goes but be called something else entirely which actually would be named based on the events in the said plot, but could still be in the zelda universe.

Iv been pondering doing a metroid series thats not about samus aran or even mentions the metroids but makes at least soem allusions and has a similar style.

[nemo_83]

I don't think they should go for a "realistic" look.  I prefer toon shading as it more closely resembles painting which looks more like the way we see than some crap overdone graphics game like Ninja Geiden with bland backgrounds, uninspired character designs, and overtly crisp textures even at a distance.  Realism is a trend like 3d is a trend.  Realism actually doesn't look real, it looks unprofesional.  WW looks very real because of its consistencies not only within the game but the consistencies between the game and the atmospheric effects found in reality.  WW flat shades of light/dark and color to simulate what has been done in past toons, but those toons simulate the classical traditions of oil and water painting.  Realistic games as they call them are defined by thier "realistic" approach to textures and bumpmapping.  The problem is that in reality you can't see any of that crap.  In reality you see flat shapes with varying size and value.  

So in closing I support the continuation of cel shaded gaming in the Zelda franchise, but I feel that even though WW had the greatest character and background designs of any game ever I think they should change the design style to a more naturalistic or manuristic style instead of a manga style as found in WW.  Also themes, story, sound, voice acting, cut scenes, emotion, deaths (maybe), and other things would really benifit from a maturation.  Difficulty should increase and my own personal complaint of course is that the adventure in WW was so overplayed, straight forward, linear, old, and lacking ambition.  The ocean should have had continents as well as some small islands.  Instead it was a grid with a ton of little islands and never a grid of just open ocean.

In a realistic Zelda I would have Link ride a dragon that eventually can swim and fly as he grows as well as run fast and attack enemies while you ride.

[Djunknown]

 "I don't know trhe laws in the US, though: Is it legal to sell pornographic material to minors? Because any attempts at preventing children from buying games like GTA III and Manhunt were blocked as "violations of free speech" and selling porn falls under the same broad definition of "free speech"... "

Yeah, for the most part, you have to be 18 to buy 'Adult products'. Most 'Adult' shops will card you right at the door. As far as buying violent games, that's still in the air but I digress...

It seems we're hanging on every word Denis Dyack says.  Every time he does an interview, he's dying to tell you more, but I'm sure the big execs would 'reprimand' him. Shiggy has gone on record the one after Wind Wake 2 will have a different style, so who knows?  

[KDR_11k]

Bill, Ocarina: If you disagree on that matter discuss it with the Supreme Court. They lifted the Washington ban on GTA as a "violation of free speech".

Djunknown: Can you get in jail for providing adult material to minors?

OOT was anime style, noone complained. Why do people complain about WW?

[nemo_83]

The backlash to WW was because of how abstract it was.  Compared to Oot or MM, WW was much more consistent throughout the design process and thus created something more real than what is found in the N64 versions which should have just been 2d like the new 4 swords and expanding the gameplay which none of the three games OoT, MM, or WW do for the series.  4 swords does what needs to be done to the Mario series; it gives us the gameplay that should have been around on the SNES taking the series to new levels of gameplay rather than asthetics.

Another example would be how Mario 64 is a bad move on the behalf of Nintendo as Mario 64 changes the gameplay for the benefit of the looks.  So instead of getting a very fast Sonic pushed Mario with coop on top of all the old stuff such as flowers, shrooms, yoshis, flying, Luigi, stars, huge worlds, and platforming; we got a new kind of game that shouldn't have even been a Mario title.  It should have been Billy Hatcher and not a scavenger hunt in a misleading disguise.  Not that Mario 64 was bad, it just wasn't Mario; and that is the end of my 389th rant about Mario 64 taking Nintendo down the path to franchising every new idea.

[Bill Aurion]

"It should have been Billy Hatcher and not a scavenger hunt in a misleading disguise."

LOL, don't compare a crappy game to a classic, please...

[Ian Sane]

"The backlash to WW was because of how abstract it was. Compared to Oot or MM, WW was much more consistent throughout the design process and thus created something more real than what is found in the N64 versions which should have just been 2d like the new 4 swords and expanding the gameplay which none of the three games OoT, MM, or WW do for the series."

Huh?  OoT didn't expand the Zelda gameplay?  Have you ever f*cking played that game?  I don't recall any horseback riding, z-targeting, first person aiming, day and night, etc in any previous Zelda games.  And unlike Super Mario 64 it didn't change the gameplay either.  Zelda was ALWAYS meant to be 3D it just wasn't able to be made as such until the N64.  The overhead view of the 2D games is to simulate 3D.

"OOT was anime style, noone complained. Why do people complain about WW?"

No one complained about OoT's style because it was a natural progression of the style seen in A Link to the Past.  Some people have since decided it was a change in style but it wasn't.  When OoT was first shown to the public NO ONE complained.  Everyone said "Now THAT'S Zelda".  And it still does look like a natural progression.  Both LttP and OoT had anime style designs.  Everything was just more proportionate in OoT because with 3D the characters didn't have to all be midgets.  OoT is what LttP would look like in 3D.

Wind Waker however is not a natural progression of the style seen in OoT so thus it was not initially accepted.  At best it could be described as a different interpretation of the LttP style in 3D.  Personally I find it to be completely unique and only slightly resembles any of the previous Zelda games.  A lot of people feel it resembles LttP in 3D.  If that's the case then why do LttP and The 4 Swords use completely different sprites?  Surely if they were identical styles there would be no need for that.  If one compares LttP and 4 Swords one can see that the difference between those two styles is night and day.

OoT's style was a progression, WW's style was a CHANGE and that's why people complained about it and that's why I don't want to see that style continue on the next Nintendo console.

[Bill Aurion]

</whine>

Please enlighten us on how a "realistic" Zelda could "progress" any more than WW's style...

[Ian Sane]

"Please enlighten us on how a "realistic" Zelda could "progress" any more than WW's style..."

Um, I never mentioned anything about a "realistic" Zelda.  All I said is that the OoT style (which is not a realistic style, only a more realistic one than WW) is a natural progression of the Zelda style and WW is not.  Therefore I prefer the OoT style and want the series to continue in that direction.  Why whenever anyone says they prefer the OoT style to WW that all the WW supporters accuse them of wanting some super realistic Zelda or a violent exploitive one?

[Mannypon]

people complained bout the ww graphics engine becuase they were originally shown the more "realistic" graphics engine in the demo video where link was fightin ganon.  Had nintendo showed the ww engine from the start, I bet no one wouldve ever complained.

[odifiend]

I bet if Nintendo showed the WW style at Spaceworld 2k, it would have killed the small amount of hype the Gamecube had when it launched.  I can tell you right now seeing a WW demo at spaceworld to show off the abilities of the Cube would not have made me happy, but yeah manny I do agree with you.

[Mannypon]

thanks I understand what you mean that the spaceworld demo did build hype but if you really look at the video, it does look nice and all but it isnt anything out of this world.  It looks like a cinematic which every other system is capable of reproducing.  The ww engine is unique and not anything you've really seen on any other system yet.  Anyways true artistry is not appreciated by the masses so the original cgi demo in spaceword served its purpose in building hype lol.

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

I reckon FFCC gives us a glimpse of how OoT's visual style might have translated graphically to GameCube.  Would characters' limbs still be disproportionately small compared to their head?  That can go either way; I don't mind.  But I'd imagine the level of detail of the texture artistries to be similar.

[Bill Aurion]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
Um, I never mentioned anything about a "realistic" Zelda.  All I said is that the OoT style (which is not a realistic style, only a more realistic one than WW) is a natural progression of the Zelda style and WW is not.  Therefore I prefer the OoT style and want the series to continue in that direction.  Why whenever anyone says they prefer the OoT style to WW that all the WW supporters accuse them of wanting some super realistic Zelda or a violent exploitive one?

I meant "realistic" as in the OoT sense(not in a super-violent sense)...And I think Wind Waker's style fits the Zelda universe much more...

[mouse_clicker]

What really annoys me is how people claim Wind Waker's art style was truly a change, then go back and say it was A Link to the Past in 3D- pick one and stay with it. Zelda's art style has always been changing and until Nintendo does a truly realistic Zelda game we'll never know if it will work or not. End of discussion.

[Termin8Anakin]

Miyamoto said that he wouldn' be happy with a realistic Zelda until EVERYTHING was perfect. No clipping, no small graphics and polygonal mistakes.
I would agree with him to an extent.
I really don't think we'll see anything like this 'perfect zelda' until next gen.

We'll have to see if SK can make a truly unique and original 3rd person game (no fixed cinematic cameras ala ED) with a good camera system before we'll be able to think if they can do a realistic Zelda, even though we know EAD woulf be helping.

[Rich]

I'm gonna have to agree with Ian Sane on the idea of the progressive graphics. I actually saw a picture of the cartoon Link before I knew who he was and it took me about ten minutes to realize that that was Link. To be honest I didn't really like it at first, but when I first saw the Spaceworld2000 video I knew that was Link there was no need to tell me who it was. Also its very obvious that people want a realistic Zelda. Look at Soul Caliber2, since when does a big game like that sell better on Gamecube then PS2, whose intall base is over double GameCubes.

Despite the fact that I think the Zelda series looks better as a realistic game i think that the WW would have looked stupid as a realistic game. I mean its not exactly normal to see wind, which was very important to the game, not to mention it would be ridiculous to see a talking boat. So as The Wind Waker goes i like the direction it took but i would like to see a realistic Zelda next time.

[ThePerm]

to me prince of persia had a proper balance of style, in some respects it was cartooney and whimsical and in others it was realistic and gorgeous.

[Djunknown]

Quote
Can you get in jail for providing adult material to minors?

I believe for the first offense no.  They'd lose their job, and get slapped with a hefty fine.  And if said vendor looks for another job,  the employers see that they made an 'unwise' descion. I can imagine if they're stupid enough to do it again, I wouldn't be surprised they'd do some time.

Looks like we're having the classic Oot vs WW argument again. I believe we can go at it until the end of time, but I'd like to focus on the possibilty that if they let Silicon Knights do the 11th incaration of Zelda(Remember that #10 is WW2).

I think they would 'mature' the franchise, not by adding blood n guts, but by telling a genuine, tight-knit, in-depth story.  As far as visuals, whatever works to suit the mood, and I'll leave it at that.  

[WesDawg]

I have this dream of a Zelda set in modern times, with a Golden Land thats set back in Midevil times. I think it'd be cool to ride a horse around New York City or something. I call it, A Link to the Present. It will probably never be made, and even if it was, it would probably be hated by all, but I think SK has the dilligence to do something like that well. They were really careful in ED about making sure the story was well done and that everything fit well with the style and period. Then again I'm also a fan of people putting less story in games, and more gameplay.

[Bill Aurion]

See?  This is the reason Ninty doesn't like taking gaming input!