Topic: It’s like Poetry- it Ocarina of Rhymes (OoT Remake Discussion)

[Evan_B]

I am fully aware of Ocarina of Time’s status as one of the best games ever made.

That doesn’t stop me from hating on it.

I’ve heard the arguments, and yes, I suppose you did just have to be there. For context, the first two Zelda titles I ever completed were Minish Cap and Twilight Princess. By the time I played Ocarina of Time, and I mean, truly got my hands on it, I was like, “this is what everyone lost their minds over? A poor man’s Twilight Princess...?”

Feel free to clown on me. I was young and foolish. To me, the ills of Ocarina of Time were the very innovations it sought to bring to the series in a 3D space: z-targeting reducing most combat scenarios to a waiting game, a context-rich action button that did everything except jump, and grappling with wonder and fantasy using rudimentary 3D graphics. The 3DS version didn’t help these issues much, though it painted the game's textures with colors and detail that hearkened more closely to the character art used to promote the game back during its release. If anything, the 3DS version did as much to repel me with its own limited button number as the original had.

Many of these things that didn't amuse me about the OG 3D Zelda were improved or rectified in subsequent games: more buttons for control, easier inventory management, less 3D platforming, and all that remained of Ocarina's foundations smoothed over with deliberate aesthetic and environmental choices. It is my opinion that Ocarina of Time failed to remain timeless, with the franchise's team heightening its dated nature with each continuous draw from its well of tricks. Wind Waker had beautiful art and a tighter narrative. Twilight Princess was... well, Ocarina of Time, but more tightly designed. Skyward Sword was... a beautiful mistake, something that should be studied as a crisis point between classic 3D Zelda formula and its open-world future.

So what can a remake of Ocarina of Time do for a game that was ambitious, but shows its age? Having cleared my save file with 100% completion over the past four-day weekend, I have thoughts.

Across a 25 hour and change playthrough, I have been enjoying the majority of my time with the remake. Much of why this version of Ocarina of Time is clicking for me comes from its modernity. I feel the other, more polished Zelda titles here, not because of their shared DNA but rather their improvements layered retroactively into the fold. Motion/gyro aiming is a blessing, the jump button is so fundamentally experience-saving, quest-tracking is a boon, and a bigger wallet makes me happy. How much less things feel like vague geometric representations of things and that dialogue is ever-so-slightly enriched as to better sell the toylike fantasy whimsy of this world.

But there are aspects of this game that still rub me the wrong way: fairy notes feeling superfluous most of the time... except when they're not, and they are required reading for puzzles. The over-complicated nature of some of the quest-lines, and the subtle evil of some of the hidden collectables and dungeon elements. Sometimes, the environments are so highly detailed that it is hard to discern essential puzzle elements- though across my entire playthrough, I only encountered three instances where I felt this was the case. I wonder if my breezing through the first two acts of this game was because I've tread this ground previously, my preexisting familiarity with the series' 3D dungeons, maybe both? But as I got into a few of the later, newer dungeons (to me), I found myself scratching my head at a few points wondering where the next switch to be tripped might be.

Zelda Notes feels like a must-have for anyone braving this game's thorough challenges, like heart containers and golden skulltulas: that some of these exist in one time period and not the other is... understandable, but frustrating. I think I probably would have rolled up to Ganondorf (spoilers) a bit more prepared with potions than I was during this playthrough, but seeing as the five great fairies are all relatively easy to access, I would have been rocking reduced damage regardless.

Another thing that feels a bit underplayed here (which makes me wonder how much less it was addressed in the original) is the overarching narrative. I mean, Zelda does admit her fault at the end of the game, but much of your played experience is being spurred on by greater spirits for the purposes of fulfilling your duty. Impa is quick to go along with whatever Zelda says in a way that makes her seem like kind of a dolt. Like, you're not going to second guess the schemes of a little kid at all, Impa? Really? It feels as if fate is conspiring to make the pieces fall into place from square one, and I think it would have been a bit more novel if this all truly felt like an evil game of chess rather than Ganondorf just being like "I never could have imagined that the two people who tried to thwart me would have the pieces of the Triforce!"

And another thing that I'm furiously pushing my imaginary glasses up on my nose over: why does the Temple of Time/Sacred Realm/Triforce tomfoolry mythos change so drastically throughout the events of the game itself? First it's "the Sacred Realm will offer access to the Triforce, so let's definitely try to crack that realm open" until its "eh actually if the Triforce is touched by a jerk, it will split into three pieces. Also you got frozen in time for seven years because Ganondorf is a jerk." It feels like there was a wont to explore a richer depiction of legend and storytelling and folds upon folds of myths and magic here that is not explored enough, even with the extended cutscenes that this game offers.

Which are good, don't get me wrong. Good and not great. I like these more extended moments of the Sages being aware of the scheming of Ganondorf. I like their introductions, their voice-acted personalities- with maybe only one or two awkward line-readings here. But it's just a little bit more added in ways that are inconsequential to the original script- which I suppose I'm okay with, but I guess I just find myself at odds with the original script's narrative conceits a bit more. Shoutout to everything having to do with the Twinrova battle and characters: that rocked.

Oh, and while I might moan about collecting the various doodads throughout the world by having to warp pretty frequently, my playthrough did only take me around 25 hours, so I guess I should give the game flowers for how much unique content it is willing to deliver to players across that time. I was genuinely pleased with stumbling into the Gerudo Training Grounds and finding a whole mini-dungeon of content that was more or less optional. That's in addition to all the little side-activities that yield genuine rewards, something that I feel the open-world Zelda games could maybe take to heart. Give me golden skulltulas, modern Zelda team: those anthills in which they hide also offer spots for magic bean plantings, rather than hundreds of Korok seeds that... expand my arsenal and give me a piece of poop (to be fair, the final reward for your Skulltula hunt has little utility before the final battle). Let me race across the playable space to deliver timed items of import. Let me hunt big Poes in the field for points that amount to decent rewards. Let me give some people masks, dammit, and then give me a mask that unlocks alternate dialogue with nearly every NPC.

Those things are fun.

And so, while some of the busy work does still feel a bit too busy, and some of the puzzles a bit too obscure, and the game is never really difficult in any meaningful way other than the damage inflicted by one's own carelessness, I walk away from this version of Ocarina of Time understanding a bit better why some people might consider it the best game of all time. Those people would have to have it form a pillar of their gaming foundation, to be sure, and in replaying this modern version and seeing how the game itself is a foundation for all of the Zelda titles that I have played and enjoyed since, I suppose I do get it. Much like Link at the end of the credits, I was there without actually being there.

I also think it's very important for me to acknowledge the rather beautiful thematic element of time here, not in its laziest implementations (grandfathering in a solution to your problem via time-travel), but the sense of coming-of-age, departure, the challenges of growing, and the bittersweet yet stoic quality of embracing one's duty. I don't always love its implementation with the sages, a few of which don't really get the chance to develop a meaningful relationship with Link and who are all compelled to embrace their duty due to mystical machinations, but their ending monologues tend to sell the overall pathos fairly well. I love it in the manifestation of this game's hero's journey, where Link and Navi are set upon a journey that takes them from their places of comfort as they come to understand the greater world and all the strange and diverse ways it can change a person. Zelda is just as much a representation of this at the end of her journey as Link, and I think its a beautiful thing that she sets back the clock and gives him a chance to live that experience in earnest. I'd like to think everyone comes out of Ocarina of Time changed, if they give it a chance.

One final note: I think that this is a gorgeous looking game, and is perhaps as real as I will ever want Zelda to look. Yes, the facade breaks down as you are introduced to some wilder-looking characters in the back half of the experience, but this game manages to capture realistic environmental textures and structures while also having that aforementioned magical whimsy in all the right ways. I do think that not all character models here are made equal, but they never lean into realism too much in a way that would jeopardize the spirit of the narrative. When these characters do the dumb things that they did in the original game, like dancing to Saria's Song or shifting themselves over to allow passage, it makes sense in a way that such antics just wouldn't fly in something more live-action. I stand by Twilight Princess and Skyward Sword's commitment to these freakish character designs: Zelda should always be fantasy.

...So what do you guys think of the Ocarina of Time Remake, eh?

Edit: Because I know my previous ranking of Zelda games was controversial enough, here’s an updated list!

-Tri Force Heroes
-Majora's Mask
-The Legend of Zelda
-Adventure of Link
-Ocarina of Time
-Link’s Awakening Remake
TAPPED OUT/UnfinishedLINE
17) Oracle of Ages
15/16) TIE: Phantom Hourglass — Spirit Tracks
14) Echoes of Wisdom
13) The Wind Waker
12) The Wind Waker HD
11) Oracle of Seasons
10) The Minish Cap
8/9) TIE: Twilight Princess — Twilight Princess HD
7) Skyward Sword
6) Ocarina of Time Remake
5) A Link to the Past
4) A Link Between Worlds
3) Link's Awakening DX
2) Tears of the Kingdom
1) Breath of the Wild

[broodwars]

Well, Amazon did what Amazon seems to be doing a lot lately: **** up, not delivering my copy until yesterday evening so I'm still pretty early in the game. I'm growing very tired of FF Resonance, so tag-teaming it with this one to try to keep things going.

I'm only up to the start of Jabu Jabu, and I like the game but I can't say it's the most exciting thing I've played all year. I've played a LOT of Ocarina over the years, and while my memory's fuzzy on quite a few things I still generally remember where things are and the order to do them in. I've spent most of my time so far just roaming around gathering up heart pieces and doing minigames/sidequests like the Happy Mask quest.

I like the expanded soundtrack, such as areas now having nighttime variations on their themes where it was just silence in the N64 version.

The item quick select works better here than it did in the Breath and Spirits of Wisdom games, but I wonder why they didn't just give us more quick access item slots. You have 2 shoulder buttons that BOTH bring up the same quick select menu, and I feel like that's not the only redundant button usage that could have been trimmed back. Like, maybe L could be held to run instead of constantly holding A, or just making it a damn stick click like most games. And seriously, what is Nintendo's obsession lately with trying to make "X=Jump" a "thing"? "B" is, and will always be "jump". At least you can swap the 2 buttons like in Tears.

Speaking of the dash, it feels like Link barely moves any faster using it than not. I could also take or leave the manual jump in general. I don't really feel like it adds anything aside from extra steps now to do the overhead jumping attack (which you thankfully can alternatively trigger with a stick movement + A).

Visually, I like how some areas look and don't like how others do. Hyrule Castle switching from pre-rendered backgrounds to a full 3D environment is just an objective improvement. The town feels much more lively now. Likewise, I think the updated stealth section in Hyrule Castle is better designed here than it was on the N64, and it does a better job of conveying that you are moving through an environment rather than just a few one-off guard patrols.

I don't like the very Breath of the Wild-esque decision to stick all these goddamn ruins all over Hyrule field to make the area feel more "busy" now as the devs expanded the area out to feel more "modern". There's enough actual hidden stuff in that area without cluttering it up with cosmetic fluff.

In general, I like the new designs for the interior environments, but I'm really mixed on the character designs. Young Zelda just plain looks weird now, particularly in her eyes, and I didn't think it was possible but Saria seems somehow less expressive than she did in her N64 incarnation.

On a side note, nice touch, character designers, sticking a Roc's feather in Link's cap to explain why he can jump now.

Finally, the game's voice acting is getting a lot of flack online. In general, I'm fine with the dub (though it sounds like Matt Mercer's Gannondorf hasn't gotten any better since his pretty bad performance in Tears of the Kingdom. I blame that on the director), but my main issue with the voice acting is that there's basically no point to it. Nintendo rounded up some pretty big names in the English dubbing scene for this game, only to have them voice very few actual lines. 90% of the dialogue in this game is just the same tired "character makes a noise or breathes" *wall of text* presentation we've seen in so many Nintendo games over the years.

Like, Richard Epcar is not a cheap "get", and you hired him to just spend 5 minutes voicing the Deku Tree, trying desperately (and failing) not to slip into his Kingdom Hearts Ansem voice? Incidentally, I see they decided to keep the Hyrule origin story just as it was in the original game, which is hilarious considering every Zelda game after Ocarina went out of its way to retcon the **** out of it.

I feel like if you're going to have voice acting in your game, you should actually commit to having voice acting in your game.

[Evan_B]

I will respond.

Tomorrow.

[stevey]

I just got the game in the mail but I'm disappointed that Master Quest isn't unlocked from the get-go and seems to need a "DLC unlock". Maybe it unlocks with the Majora's Mask remake or Amiibo (data mining confirms). It would be insane if they're charging money for something that came included with 3ds version and was free on the Gamecube.

[Evan_B]

The item quick select works better here than it did in the Breath and Spirits of Wisdom games, but I wonder why they didn't just give us more quick access item slots. You have 2 shoulder buttons that BOTH bring up the same quick select menu, and I feel like that's not the only redundant button usage that could have been trimmed back. Like, maybe L could be held to run instead of constantly holding A, or just making it a damn stick click like most games. And seriously, what is Nintendo's obsession lately with trying to make "X=Jump" a "thing"? "B" is, and will always be "jump". At least you can swap the 2 buttons like in Tears.

Speaking of the dash, it feels like Link barely moves any faster using it than not. I could also take or leave the manual jump in general. I don't really feel like it adds anything aside from extra steps now to do the overhead jumping attack (which you thankfully can alternatively trigger with a stick movement + A).

I understand the frustration in being unable to equip multiple side-weapons simultaneously, but I really feel that the game is just not designed for access to multiple tools. The exception might be the hookshot, which just feels beneficial to have queued up for exploration in general, but so many items are able to replace the function of others (the megaton hammer just making all explosives redundant) that I didn’t really find the need to switch back and forth all that much.

And I guess I’m a madman, then, because I found the jump button to be my route to accessibility. I absolutely hated how many positioned jumps you had to make in the original and 3DS version and it should come as no surprise that the Shadow Temple was the one that broke me.

Visually, I like how some areas look and don't like how others do. Hyrule Castle switching from pre-rendered backgrounds to a full 3D environment is just an objective improvement. The town feels much more lively now. Likewise, I think the updated stealth section in Hyrule Castle is better designed here than it was on the N64, and it does a better job of conveying that you are moving through an environment rather than just a few one-off guard patrols.

I don't like the very Breath of the Wild-esque decision to stick all these goddamn ruins all over Hyrule field to make the area feel more "busy" now as the devs expanded the area out to feel more "modern". There's enough actual hidden stuff in that area without cluttering it up with cosmetic fluff.

In general, I like the new designs for the interior environments, but I'm really mixed on the character designs. Young Zelda just plain looks weird now, particularly in her eyes, and I didn't think it was possible but Saria seems somehow less expressive than she did in her N64 incarnation.

I found the environments to be fine, and I suppose I’ll need to take another loop around the original Hyrule because I didn’t feel like there was a propensity of ruins. While I agree somewhat on young Zelda’s looks, she grows into them quite well, and I think Saria gets more time to emote in her second appearance. Hyperbolic statements aside, I understand that the art style has mixed impressions and I don’t want to say my feelings are more right than anyone else. I think the disparity in the detail among NPCs is the real sticking point, as I do think characters of greater import just have higher amounts of detail, which is a bit disappointing.

Finally, the game's voice acting is getting a lot of flack online. In general, I'm fine with the dub (though it sounds like Matt Mercer's Gannondorf hasn't gotten any better since his pretty bad performance in Tears of the Kingdom. I blame that on the director), but my main issue with the voice acting is that there's basically no point to it. Nintendo rounded up some pretty big names in the English dubbing scene for this game, only to have them voice very few actual lines. 90% of the dialogue in this game is just the same tired "character makes a noise or breathes" *wall of text* presentation we've seen in so many Nintendo games over the years…

…I feel like if you're going to have voice acting in your game, you should actually commit to having voice acting in your game.

I am glad I’ve avoided the online vitriol. I had no issues with the voice cast other than Matt Mercer’s Ganondorf really just having no range whatsoever. The character model really sells the overall vibe more than his performance, which is saying something. But I just can’t believe that the people who are critical of these voice performances are making those arguments in good faith, or that they’re particularly qualified to judge voice acting, especially in an age where (questionable) anime and game voice acting are rampant. That’s just my opinion.

I do remember the original game having a bit more teeth than this version, and some reviews out there seem to confirm a loss of spikes in some boss arenas. However, much of the conversation about puzzle complexity and difficulty seems to be hearsay at best and overreacting at worst. I would be curious to hear the thoughts of others as they play, though, because while I found the whole experience quite cozy, it was far from frictionless- just not in the combat.

I just got the game in the mail but I'm disappointed that Master Quest isn't unlocked from the get-go and seems to need a "DLC unlock". Maybe it unlocks with the Majora's Mask remake or Amiibo (data mining confirms). It would be insane if they're charging money for something that came included with 3ds version and was free on the Gamecube.

I hope Nintendo is going the “hey, here’s an update” route that they have gone with Star Fox, but the addition of Master Quest seems a bit more ambitious than multiplayer map updates. Either way, Nintendo has had more egregious DLC additions on the Switch 2, so I could imagine dipping into the well to come back to the game again if it were offered, even if it sucks it’s not packed in.