Author Topic: tribute to the great jfk (Read 9711 times)

nolimit19 · « **on:** November 24, 2003, 04:02:55 PM »

despite the title of the thread, i do not see what is so great about this guy....as far as im concerned the best thing he gave us was his death. everyone loves to give their theory of what happened and its been the topic of books, articles, and tv shows for a long time now. but really, what was so great about this guy....people give him the camelot analogy and all that....maybe im just missing it, but with the mob ties, cheating on his wife, and the most annoying voice known to man....i just dont see what made this guy deserve all the positive attention he is getting. i havent heard one negative thing about him since the talk on the 40 year aniversary came up. he seems like the most over rated president of all time. what do you guys think? maybe you know more.....

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #1 on:** November 24, 2003, 04:10:40 PM »

The man bolstered our economy, he did more for civil rights than any president since Lincoln, he was a strong leader to represent democracy in a time when communism was spreading, he saved us from possibly the most dangerous time in human history, the Cuban Missile Crisis, he was pulling Eisenhower's American troops out of Vietnam, he was on the verge of peace with Fidel Castro, but most of all he was a honest president- after the disaster of the Bay of Pigs, he appeared before the nation and personally apologized, claiming all responsibility for what happened. That couldn't be expected out of almost any politician, much less a president. He gained the trust and love of the American people, and of foreign people- the anniversary of Kennedy's speach in Berlin still draws crowds of thousands upon thousands, and his trip to Ireland shortly thereafter had the biggest turnout of anybody in that country's history. He was someone the American people could identify with, and was a true spokesperson for the superiority of democracy over communism. And he did all of this in only a little over 1,000 days. Kennedy's assasination marked the turning point in our trust for our government- while he was in office we felt that our government had our best interests in mind, and was doing everything it could to make our lives better. Afterwards, we realized our government was concerned with itself and itself alone. Yes, he had his faults, but what man doesn't? What you really fail to recognize is the man's enormous potential, what he could have done in the last year of his current term, and what he could have done when he was reelected.Kennedy is one of the most important men of this century, and certainly one of the greatest leaders of our country. Please, do a little more research about the people you're downplaying.

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #2 on:** November 24, 2003, 04:56:21 PM »

"he did more for civil rights than any president since Lincoln"

You know, that's not really saying much...Kennedy did the best he could to stay off the topic...

But none-the-less, even though he was a cheat, a drugie, and had some shady dealings, he still was a great politician and motivational speaker...I would rather have him back then any of the candidates running for the 2004 election, that's for sure...

RIP JFK

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #3 on:** November 24, 2003, 05:02:27 PM »

He didn't want a radical change so quickly because he knew violence would erupt, and violence DID erupt. He set the ball rolling for the civil rights bill that Johnson would finally pass.

Speaking of Johnson, if you're accusing Kennedy of being a cheat and had some shady dealings, Johnson easily outdid him tenfold. Some even go as far as to say he was responsible for Kennedy's assasination. I wouldn't doubt it- he certainly had the power to cover it up.

nolimit19 · « **Reply #4 on:** November 24, 2003, 05:57:35 PM »

i dunno about vietnam.....a lot of the things i have read pretty much have the war starting under the kennedy administration. i know he did good things, but like you said, he wasnt president for long. one person simply cant do THAT much in that amount of time to warrent all the positive attention he gets. sure he did do good things...maybe even great things, but so does every other president. things like big turn outs in ireland mean absolutely nothing.....he was irish catholic...so obvioiusly he would have a big turn out there. now im not saying he is a bad president, but i am just sick of all the positive stuff about this guy. people just seem to be blinded by some unseen force. my big problem with him is that people always say that he was great for the way he carried himself and the way he made people feel good.....doesnt that seem somewhat shallow?? it seems like a lot of people just try to make him out to something he could have been, or what they think he should have been as opposed to what he actually was...because to me, there really wasnt much there to begin with.

Bill Aurion · « **Reply #5 on:** November 24, 2003, 06:07:08 PM »

"my big problem with him is that people always say that he was great for the way he carried himself and the way he made people feel good.....doesnt that seem somewhat shallow??"

That's how politics works...The best and fastest way to an American's vote is by acting as if you are one of them, though it seems to work more in the local and state elections...

Speeches can make or break a President's reputation...Look at Bush...He mispronounces a few words and everyone is on his back about it...

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #6 on:** November 24, 2003, 06:11:58 PM »

Eisenhower, I'm almost certain, initially sent troops into Vietnam. Kennedy had signed a bill that would have some 17,000 men OUT of Vietnam by that following spring. After he died, Johnson repealed the bill and sent more troops into Vietnam.

And if you're so hung up on why he's overrated, why DOESN'T he deserve his praise? Yes, a lot of things attributed to him were actually carried out by Johnson, but Johnson was mostly becoming up the pieces of Kennedy's shattered presidency. Why ISN'T he such a great president, nolimit. The only presidents I think ever did as much as he did are Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, Woodrow Wilson, FDR, and Johnson- Harry Truman I might also count among them. Do you think these men don't deserve their credit, either?

nolimit19 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 24, 2003, 06:29:52 PM »

well my point is that he basically did nothing for no one. i understand politics blablabla, but he isnt up for reelection so that shouldnt matter now. my point is when i hear people on tv talk about what a great president he was...buts its not for foriegn policy or for his tax cuts, its for his personality....and that doesnt do anything for anyone now or back when he was president. it may have gotten him elected, but thats about it. and yes there were already troops in vietnam before kennedy was in charge...but for some reason (i dont know exactly why) the war is dated, in a lot of places, to have started in 61'. in the end i suppose that what i really think is that he just gets this attention because he was assainated. i think thats what he is famous for. i just hope his legacy dies down as the people who were alive when he was president die off. he just seems so over rated....and if you know me(which none of you really do) i just cant stand over rated people. like i said he wasnt a bad president.....he did avoid the missle crisis well. its just that there is nothing big that i am aware of in terms of a bill or program or peace treaty, that came out of his administration that is a great positive for our country today. sure he said we would get to the moon....and we did, but after he died. pretty much a missle crisis and an assasination made him what he was, and it just seems to me like history is going to paint him as our greatest president of the century or something. o wait....wasnt he a war hero too....maybe that has something to do with it. i just dont get it.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #8 on:** November 24, 2003, 06:40:42 PM »

nolimit, you have told me a SINGLE reason he doesn't deserve recognition- maybe people are recognizing the wrong thingk, yes, that being his assasination, but YOU aren't realizing what he did for this country. How can YOU claim he was overrated when you can't even recognize what he did during his presidency? He wasn't just charisma, he wasn't just a great personality, the man was a hero and did more for this ocuntry in just 1,000 days than most presidents did in their 8 years. His assasination was important for another reason, but the main reason people remember it is because one bullet ended so much that could have happened. How can you honestly say he doesn't deserve the credit people gave him when you don't even know what his presidency DID? How can you be so insolent as to claim that man is not worthy of his honor? I don't say that because he died, it wouldn't make any difference. If Kennedy had lived and had served his two terms, you'd be hearing far greater praise than you are now. Stop trying to go against the grain and get attention- Kennedy did more than you can realize, and until then you are in no position to claim he was overrated. At the very least, explain WHY he doesn't deserve recognition, DESPITE all he did. Maybe he didn't do everything people think he did, but even when you view the man's time in office alone, he still did some incredibly courageous things. The handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis alone is reason enough for the credit he gets- had any lesser man been in office the human race would be extinct right now. Even if he hadn't been assasinated so horrorificly I'd still give him all the recognition I do already. It's a sad state of affairs when even Americans can't recognize how much their leaders really did for them.

nolimit19 · « **Reply #9 on:** November 24, 2003, 06:58:29 PM »

well i think its fair to say that it should be proven why he deserves the attention. it seems kind of weird to just talk about the things he didnt acomplish...i am open to the idea that he was a great president...i just need to hear why. is it just because of the missle crisis? that is big, but is it worth the attention we give him. it seems like the media treats him like the second coming. i just dont get it. so why dont you explain it. and dont give me personality. give me something he did BESIDES the missle crisis, and make it something with detail (for instance dont say civil rights...last time i checked the guy heading that movment was named martin luther king). i posted here not to get attention, but to try and find out what it was about....one of the main reasons i started it was because my history professor told me he was soooo over rated. and it just got me thinking. so far he seems right.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #10 on:** November 25, 2003, 10:37:27 AM »

His handling of the Cuban Missile Crisis alone makes him worthy of recognition- the US had similar missiles in Turkey at the time, so any percieved action, whether false or otherwise, by either side would have resulted in the destruction of the human race. I believe at that time, the height of the Cold War, there were enough nuclear missiles to destroy the world some 63 times. Like I said- had any less of a man been in office at the time, we wouldn't exist.

If you want MORE things he did, read my first post- I listed a lot of things he did while he was president, and what he began work on before his death.

grassfairy · « **Reply #11 on:** November 25, 2003, 11:19:42 AM »

I had to do a report on JFK and he was a GREAT president...but of course there was also that whole big thing on having an affair with his secretary and I don't think that's a very good thing for a president to do, really.

nolimit19 · « **Reply #12 on:** November 25, 2003, 11:36:17 AM »

i dunno, i still think he was just an average president. he shouldnt be given credit for things he could have acomplished had he not been killed and gotten a second election.

manunited4eva22 · « **Reply #13 on:** November 25, 2003, 11:37:18 AM »

Mouse, no offense, but Kennedy's advisors like Macnamara's whiz kids where probablly the worst thing to happen to Vietnam. You don't try to set a budget on how many bullets a soldier fires off, or go against facts like that M16's did jam. It cost a whole bunch of guys their lives.

As for how he did so well in the Cuban Missile Crisis, look at him compared to Khruschev, when they met to have conferences in europe, Khruschev kicked Kennedy around like a doll.

Him pulling the missiles out of Turkey was not a move of great heroism, no where near it, it's a move of we won't blow you up as fast if you won't blow us up equally as fast. The move didn't do anything for the world. Bombers were in the air all the time ready to end the world, the fact that someone put's missiles on your borders is a move to intimidate, nothing more.

So what at that time the world could have been blown up 63 times, now its only 26, big deal.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #14 on:** November 25, 2003, 11:38:20 AM »

Jesus, nolimit- don't have an opinion like that unless you can back it up, which you clearly haven't. Even IF you disregard the man's enormous potential, he still did, like I said, more in his 1,000 days of presidency than most others did in their full 8 years of presidency.

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Mouse, no offense, but Kennedy's advisors like Macnamara's whiz kids where probablly the worst thing to happen to Vietnam. You don't try to set a budget on how many bullets a soldier fires off, or go against facts like that M16's did jam. It cost a whole bunch of guys their lives.[q/]

BESIDES the fact that Kennedy was pulling troops out of Vietnam (I swear, you guys need to learn how to read), Johnson sent more troops INTO Vietnam, and thousands upon thousands of people lost their lives for a war they didn't believe in BECAUSE of that.

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As for how he did so well in the Cuban Missile Crisis, look at him compared to Khruschev, when they met to have conferences in europe, Khruschev kicked Kennedy around like a doll.

The first time they met- Kennedy never let Kruschev kick him around again- besides, I hardly see how that one little fact does anything towards discrediting the man. Find BIG things, not little nitpicking details.

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Him pulling the missiles out of Turkey was not a move of great heroism, no where near it, it's a move of we won't blow you up as fast if you won't blow us up equally as fast. The move didn't do anything for the world. Bombers were in the air all the time ready to end the world, the fact that someone put's missiles on your borders is a move to intimidate, nothing more.

Obviously you don't understand the Cuban Missile Crisis- it was simply that both America and Russia had nuclear weapons very close, it was their attitude, that they were ready to use them at the first sign of hostility. Any normal man would have broken under the pressure, or launched missiles of his own, effectively destroying the human race. And Kennedy didn't simply remove our missiles from Turkey- that was one stipulation of the agreement that ended the Cuban Missile Crisis. He talked with Kruschev and formulated a plan, and made a big step towards arms control (I believe the first bill of that sort was passed under Johnson).

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So what at that time the world could have been blown up 63 times, now its only 26, big deal.

I swear, you people need to read between the lines. It's the simple fact that enough weapons existed to blow up the world once, and not only that, but both the USSR and America had every intention of using their weapons as soon as it looked like war would break out. That same sentiment does not exist now, so it wouldn't matter if we even had more weapons now than then- the incentive to use them doesn't exist now.

nolimit19 · « **Reply #15 on:** November 25, 2003, 11:42:58 AM »

naw manunited sumed it up well. he did nothing special that anyone else could have done.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #16 on:** November 25, 2003, 11:49:42 AM »

PROVE it, nolimit- instead of riding on the coat tails of someone who is not only younger but obviously more inclined to debate such a subject, since he knows a LOT more about it than you do, come up with your OWN arguments, or else admit you can't support your own opinion. NEVER make a stand unless you have ample reason to do so.

nolimit19 · « **Reply #17 on:** November 25, 2003, 12:01:14 PM »

well i did know about him pulling nukes out of turkey, but like i said before....its not what he did, but what he didnt do. if you want me to describe things that he could have done warrent the attention he gets i could, but it seems like it would be pointless for me to do that. its not that i believe he had failed policy, but that he just didnt do anything to get all the attention he gets. jimmy carter seems to have done more for world peace then kennedy, and he doesnt get as much coverage as "the kennedy legacy and the fall of camelot". its just so rediculous. camalot fell because it was ran by jackasses as far as im concerned. the kennedy curse is nothing but stupidity and i hate to sound like a broken record, but he is just sooo over rated.

Mutated · « **Reply #18 on:** November 25, 2003, 12:06:16 PM »

We shouldn't really be judging Kennedy. Kennedy did good and bad things, but imagine how hard it is to be president! He did a lot of good things for our country, and in my opinion its really upsetting of what happened in 1963... I think he could have done a lot more for our country if he had the chance, which he obviously doesn't.

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I had to do a report on JFK and he was a GREAT president...but of course there was also that whole big thing on having an affair with his secretary and I don't think that's a very good thing for a president to do, really.

Everyone makes mistakes, grassfairy. And besides, that doesn't affect how well of a president he was during his 3 years in office.

mouse_clicker · « **Reply #19 on:** November 25, 2003, 12:07:20 PM »

I'm done- if you HONESTLY think Jimmy Cart did more for world peace than JFK, I'm through with you. I can't STAND the insolence you have shown a man you could never even hope to comprehend, much less even try, which is what you've decided to do- not try at all. I'm not going to sit tight while one of the greatest and most influential men of the last century is childishly bashed by someone who has no idea what he's talking about. If manunited had made this thread, that would be great, because he actually knows what he's talking about. You on the other hand just mill about, despite being told the contrary, despite providing nothing to back up your claim that JFK was no different than any other human being. I should have realised this "debate" would have gone nowhere from your first post. But maybe I thought I could change your opninion because even you yourself admitted you knew very little about the man you so incessentaly claim does not deserve the recognition and honor he gets, but it's clear now that your opinion will not change. I liken this to spitting on the tomb of Lincoln by some teen prankster. I admire that you're firm in your beliefs, but you should at least have something to base those beliefs on. I'm through.

Mutated · « **Reply #20 on:** November 25, 2003, 12:10:05 PM »

Are you talking to me, Mouse_Clicker?

I didn't say anything about any of that...I think JFK was a great president!

nolimit19 · « **Reply #21 on:** November 25, 2003, 12:15:54 PM »

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Originally posted by: Mutated
We shouldn't really be judging Kennedy. Kennedy did good and bad things, but imagine how hard it is to be president! He did a lot of good things for our country, and in my opinion its really upsetting of what happened in 1963... I think he could have done a lot more for our country if he had the chance, which he obviously doesn't.

you see i completly agree with that. there is nothing there i can disagree with. my whole point is not that kennedy was bad, or wasnt good, or was evil...but that he is just over rated. jimmy carter won the nobel peace prize, so i dont know what you are going off about mouse....you are obviously blinded by the media that i am complaining about. jimmy carter (although i definitely dont take the same political stances as he) did a lot in terms of world peace. i dont know a lot about kennedy, and i think that because there isnt much to know. maybe im wrong, and i want someone to prove me wrong, but it seems like kennedy is just a dream that people like to think about and pretend that the whole situation was better then it was.

Mutated · « **Reply #22 on:** November 25, 2003, 12:18:38 PM »

...Ahhh! Jimmy Carter! He was an excellent president! He has my compliments! Abraham Lincon...there's another president to talk about!

nolimit19 · « **Reply #23 on:** November 25, 2003, 12:23:42 PM »

lincoln is another one that is over rated in my opinion. although he actually did do things, he didnt do them for the right reason. honest abe was more like racist abe from some of the things i have read. and thats really my general point. if we honor presidents, it should be for what they did, not for some fairy tale fantasy that we can fabricate cute little stories from. i dont mean to pick on kennedy, but thats the way it worked out because of the 40 year aniversery.

Mutated · « **Reply #24 on:** November 25, 2003, 01:29:27 PM »

What do you mean racist abe? Abraham Lincon was one of the best presidents! Where's your proof to back it up that he's "racist abe"?

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Author Topic: tribute to the great jfk (Read 9711 times)