Author Topic: Tim Epic vs. Tim Apple: Title fight!  (Read 566 times)

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Offline pokepal148

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Tim Epic vs. Tim Apple: Title fight!
« on: August 17, 2020, 09:50:50 PM »
I was wondering where all that Fortnite money was going since it certainly didn't go to the Epic Games Store.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2020, 03:43:03 PM by pokepal148 »
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2020, 10:41:59 PM »
Didn't you see the production values on that 1984 video? That must have eaten up most of it.
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: August 19, 2020, 02:09:32 AM »
I assume cocaine prices have been going up lately, which is serving as the basis for this lawsuit.
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Offline Kairon

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: August 19, 2020, 03:58:09 AM »
Cue the Dr. Serizawa "Let them fight" gif from Godzilla.

I can see that in general a rebellion against the 30% take could possibly be good for all developers in the ecosystem, and also that Apple's absolute control over what software lands on the iTunes AppStore is possibly a little too strong (probably in this case, the most interesting recent example is Apple making XCloud pretty difficult to work on their platform). Epic's rhetoric against Steam definitely seems a warm-up to this.

I have a hard time envisioning this as a wholesale attack on closed platforms in particular, though if it grew into THAT much of a legal conflagration then definitely Nintendo would be affected.

But the ridiculousness is just how big these industry players are who are duking it out in public. There's been so much firepower displayed, legal broadsides, and rabid direct-to-consumer marketing about this in such a short amount of time. It's especially astounding that Epic had lawsuits seemingly ready to go with this AND a 1984 parody commercial to tweak Apple's nose, they INTENDED to make a big deal out of this. It's ridiculous the directness of the fight being waged somewhat in public view, at least from Epic's side.

And then Apple has ESCALATED by now threatening ALL of Epic's tools in their ecosystem, including the beloved Unreal Engine?

Cue the "popcorn" gif.
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Offline RABicle

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: August 19, 2020, 04:29:22 AM »
I don't understand the handwringing from Epic over Unreal Engine not being supported if Apple revoke their developer license. I mean, Apple deal with content on the App store on a per app basis. They don't care if the underlying code comes from another licensed product (in this case, Unreal) games that use Unreal on the iPhone aren't going to stop working and games in development with it will still be able to come out because Epic isn't their publisher. It might, in the abstract, affect Epic's ability to improve the iOS support going forward but considering they host on their own blog guides by independent developers about how to attach mac support to the engine, one has to question how valuable their own development is.

Anywya the whole thing is grandstanding from Tim Sweeny, emboldened by his Tencent bux. Apple (and the rest of the industry) could probably drop their margins, and this might in some way assist in the struggle, but this lawsuit wont go Epic's way, if they actually intend to follow through with it at all.
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: August 19, 2020, 01:26:45 PM »
Apple giving special treatment to Amazon probably won't help their case, but either way Epic was ready for a fight.  I guess they're thinking that with how many kids play Fortnite on their phones, it'll be easy to strum up "public pressure".  I'm wondering if the Amazon reveal is the biggest motivator.  The 30% rule has been in place for a long time, and MS scoffing at it (and possibly some other, more technical, thing I don't fully understand) also helped as "taking the first shot"
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: August 19, 2020, 05:33:24 PM »
I guess they're thinking that with how many kids play Fortnite on their phones, it'll be easy to strum up "public pressure".
That was my initial thought, and the entire concept of weaponizing children really makes it hard for me to side with Epic on this.

I don’t have a horse in this race. I use a lot of Apple products including the iPhone though I don’t play Fortnite at all, don’t have any games on my phone, and rarely spend money on apps. Part of me understands Apple doesn’t need the revenue, but part of me also acknowledges that it has every right to charge what it wants on its own platform and doesn’t need to host Epic or its games.

Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: August 19, 2020, 05:48:01 PM »
Couldn't this lawsuit have a ripple effect on Nintendo if Apple lost the case?  Nintendo, and Sony and MS of course, have closed platforms like Apple does and set their own pricing and policies and such.  What is the precedent that gets set?  Closed platforms can't exist?  In that case the console market is dead.  I have no horse in this race if it just ends up with a settlement but it could have major consequences if Apple was found to be violating anti-trust laws.

Offline Kairon

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: August 19, 2020, 09:30:39 PM »
I guess they're thinking that with how many kids play Fortnite on their phones, it'll be easy to strum up "public pressure".
That was my initial thought, and the entire concept of weaponizing children really makes it hard for me to side with Epic on this.

Yeah, I agree, that's probably the most distasteful part of this affair.

Couldn't this lawsuit have a ripple effect on Nintendo if Apple lost the case?  Nintendo, and Sony and MS of course, have closed platforms like Apple does and set their own pricing and policies and such.  What is the precedent that gets set?  Closed platforms can't exist?  In that case the console market is dead.  I have no horse in this race if it just ends up with a settlement but it could have major consequences if Apple was found to be violating anti-trust laws.

I'm not a lawyer, but I think closed platforms aren't specifically under attack. In fact, I don't think closed platforms are technically protected, what we're seeing in the console world as closed platforms are really platforms that feel closed due to the platform maker's hold over licensing of developer tools (like compilers), access to documentation, and anti-piracy measures. Like, I think you're allowed to make unlicensed NES games, it's just you have to do it completely without Nintendo's help and through legal reverse engineering and not theft of technical info.

I don't think Epic's suit is specifically against closed platforms, but maybe a more general attack against Apple to try to leverage some concessions that'll earn Epic more money. Apparently Apple is the target of some Antitrust investigations right now so Epic is timing this to go along with that? Heck, I bet if Apple went to Epic and said "Ok, we give up, we'll give you these favorable terms but don't tell anyone else on the old system" then there's a 50/50 chance Epic will say "Okay, let's settle the lawsuit and say nothing more."
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Offline nickmitch

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: August 20, 2020, 04:56:14 PM »
I guess they're thinking that with how many kids play Fortnite on their phones, it'll be easy to strum up "public pressure".
That was my initial thought, and the entire concept of weaponizing children really makes it hard for me to side with Epic on this.

Yeah, I agree, that's probably the most distasteful part of this affair.

Agreed.  It's a pretty **** move; however, anyone in that space has to rile up their fanbase to help with the public pressure, and it's not Epic's fault their demo skews younger.  I do think maybe they should've considered the impacts on kids (especially when a lot are at home, at least in the US) and the fact they'd be weaponizing them (as opposed to the usual Skinner-boxing).
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Offline ThePerm

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: August 20, 2020, 11:09:18 PM »
On the other hand. I don't think even Nintendo is going to be a single hardware platform provider in the future.

Imagine Nintendo making bank off selling Mario games on Playstation and Xbox by running their own storefront on those platforms.

Platform exclusives could mean something different in the future. Meaning you have to download the Nintendo app to play a particular game, which will most likely be Nintendo made only. But then there would be steam on consoles.

Also conversely you'll be able to play other games on Nintendo platforms. Like there might be a version of Uncharted running on Switch 2.0
« Last Edit: August 21, 2020, 02:45:59 AM by ThePerm »
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Offline A Straight Up Trippin' Balls Forum User

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: August 21, 2020, 06:19:03 PM »
Aw. The people I've killed who were playing on mobile looked absolutely ridiculous. I hope they bring it back soon so I can completely destroy them.

Offline nickmitch

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: August 21, 2020, 09:41:27 PM »
And now WordPress enters the fray!

Quote
WordPress founding developer Matt Mullenweg is accusing Apple of cutting off the ability to update that app — until or unless he adds in-app purchases so the most valuable company in the world can extract its 30 percent cut of the money.

Quote
WordPress, the iOS app, lets you build and manage a website right from your iPhone or iPad, for free.

Separately, WordPress.com also happens to sell domain names and fancier website packages.

. . .

Apple admitted to The Verge that it’s involved, reminding us that in-app purchases are required whenever apps “allow users to access content, subscriptions, or features they have acquired in your app on other platforms or your web site.” But again, the WordPress app doesn’t sell anything itself, and it sounds like you can’t do anything special with anything you’ve purchased from WordPress.com (beyond uploading additional files or selecting website themes) from the app, either.

So, it sounds like the WordPress iOS app wasn't selling anything, but customers could buy additional features on their website.  This violates one of Apple's rules, so they played hardball and blocked the app from posting updates.  WordPress subsequently caved and will roll out an update adding in-app purchases within 30 days.
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Offline RABicle

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #13 on: August 21, 2020, 11:56:51 PM »
Wordpress entering was truly out of leftfield. I think their situation sounds far for damning on Apple than Epic's, in that Apple is bullying them into including in-app purchases that they were happy leaving out of their utility app.

Apple releasing Tim Epic's email is pretty funny though. What do you know, he wants to bring the Epic Games Store to iOS. And that is never ever happening.
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Offline Adrock

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #14 on: August 22, 2020, 12:27:05 AM »
Wordpress entering was truly out of leftfield. I think their situation sounds far for damning on Apple than Epic's, in that Apple is bullying them into including in-app purchases that they were happy leaving out of their utility app.
This part in particular can **** ALL the way off:
Quote
While Mullenweg says there technically was a roundabout way for an iOS [user] to find out that WordPress has paid tiers (they could find it buried in support pages, or by navigating to WordPress’s site from a preview of their own webpage), he says that Apple rejected his offer to block iOS users from seeing the offending pages.
How in the world is that even allowed?

Full disclosure: I have a blog and use the Wordpress app, mostly for quick editing and looking up stats (actual blogs are written on a computer exclusively). I thoroughly enjoyed not being sold anything while using the app so if a thing pops up now to sell me subscriptions or domains, that significantly decreases the user friendliness of the app. I have no interest in buying my own domain name right now, and even if I did, I’d use a computer.

Offline RABicle

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: August 22, 2020, 04:51:48 AM »
I also have not only a wordpress blog, but a paid wordpress.com blog at that. Truly disgusting.

Sounds like they might jsut split the app into two. One for non wordpress.com accounts for site maintence and ketpack support and one for fucking selling us blogging packages that Apple take a cut of.
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Offline BlackNMild2k1

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Re: Epic vs. Apple and Google. Title fight!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: August 22, 2020, 11:37:54 AM »

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Tim Epic vs. Tim Apple: Title fight!
« Reply #17 on: August 22, 2020, 03:45:18 PM »
I think Epic needs to get their store working on PC first before they spread out to iOS.
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Offline RABicle

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Re: Tim Epic vs. Tim Apple: Title fight!
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2020, 03:16:17 AM »
Updates on the Wordpress situation I've gleaned from various places across the web.
Basically one of the help files in the app alluded to the paid service tiers available at Wordpress.com. The offending sentence ahs now been removed and Apple are satisfied that the app remains in compliance with their policies. However, Wordpress is also a platform of sorts and apparently developers of plugins and themes are interested in those being sold through a mobile app that Automattic (Wordpress developer) might facilitate. Thats on the backburner for now but we might see a seperate app for the wordpress ecosystem that Apple can pinch a portion of.
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