Topic: did nintendo listen to gamers when designing the cube, will they listen for the N5?

[vroenis]

do you feel like nintendo listened to the thoughts of gamers for the gamecube?  are you happy with the product and it's support?
and most importantly, will nintendo listen to you this time around?  how do you as gamers guage your own importance to the company that is nintendo?

[Chode2234]

I think a lot of the frustration of Nintendo fans stems from the fact it seems like Nintendo never listens to their suggestions.  Nintendo seems to do what Nintendo wants to do and we are along for the ride and can bugger off if we don't like it, their profit margins are more important than gamers, is the message I seem to be getting. Granted the two go hand in hand, but it seems as if the later is a side effect of the first.

However, I can say that I am very much satisfied with my cube, I love it to death, Nintendo seems to know what makes a fun enjoyable gameplay experience that I need in my life.  And I think they are being more responsive to gamers wishes as well, or maybe they know what we want before we want it.  The new rewards program should help them build better demographic information and better cater to the "real" Nintendo customers.  Although they seemt to be marching to the beat of their own drum (donkey konga pun intended), but we will see what else they are doing to satisfy their fans.  I don't ever remember any game forums with threads like "Nintendo needs more drum games" or "Drum games - Nintendo's return to greatness".  To me they are still great, and even if I don't feel like they listen to me very much, they still seem to deliver.

To be a Nintendo fan you need to put a little bit of trust in Nintendo, actually wait for the game before passing judgement, and at the end of the day remember they are a company too, not some entity that is a sole means of happiness and substance to your life.

[The Omen]

No, they didn't listen.  They should've never released the Purple Cube at launch.  It just didnt help anything.  They shouldn't of released the GC without at LEAST one huge franchise next to it.  DVD player, though not on my list , shouldve been implemented.  Their advertising is just now becoming tolerable.  Online strategy shouldve been announced, even if it was a free system with games like Monkey ball or Animal Crossing.  Nintendo would've been better off losing money online than losing potential fans because of no online strategy.  We should see more from the tri-force hardware than we have by now.  I realize they still are making the most, but had they done all of these things, the Xbox wouldn't be a blip on their radar.  Now lets hope they finally have learned their lesson.

[The Omen]

No, they didn't listen.  They should've never released the Purple Cube at launch.  It just didnt help anything.  They shouldn't of released the GC without at LEAST one huge franchise next to it.  DVD player, though not on my list , shouldve been implemented.  Their advertising is just now becoming tolerable.  Online strategy shouldve been announced, even if it was a free system with games like Monkey ball or Animal Crossing.  Nintendo would've been better off losing money online than losing potential fans because of no online strategy.  We should see more from the tri-force hardware than we have by now.  I realize they still are making the most, but had they done all of these things, the Xbox wouldn't be a blip on their radar.  Now lets hope they finally have learned their lesson.

[KDR_11k]

Judging by the "success" of XBox Live, the number of "fans" lost due to lack of online aming is at most 200k. There was a thread about the rate of online usage among console gamers and that rate was less than 10%. Those aren't worth the losses caused by online gaming. Remember, some features you only want until you get them.

[Cell]

It's true, online gaming is clearly in its infancy at least as far as consoles go.  But I believe that there are special circumstances at work in this case.  Personally, I wouldn't be half as interested as I am in Xbox (which isn't very much at all) if not for Xbox Live and what it promises.  At the end of the day, Live itself suffers due to a lack of truly great exclusive software titles on the machine.  Watch and see what happens when Halo 2 rolls around and it starts selling like a godsent cure-all, it will undoubtedly take Live with it.  The reason being that the Halo sequel is the only sure-fire triple A title joe schmoe can name for the Xbox, that also happens to ooze further potential thanks to the features the Live service affords it.

Unlike Microsoft, Nintendo has Halo-calibur franchises up the wazoo, that's how I see it anyway.  Every single franchise title they have is simply brimming over with potential for online features.  Where Xbox Live is a match to a pool of stagnant water, a Nintendo online service is a flamethrower to the lake of gasoline that is their game library, if that makes any sense.  Now, it is smart to ease into something like this, everyone understands that which ever way you look at it, connectivity is a costly investment.  Sony and Microsoft can much more easily afford to be brazen about such costly ventures, so it doesn't surprise me to see them emphasizing it over Nintendo.  In the next-gen though, the pressure is going to be on.  Those two machines will hail their next-gen connectivity features as a second coming, and most people will buy into that.  They may not take full advantage of it, some if not most may not even be able to use it, but they will at some level factor it into the value of the product they're buying.  When they look over to Nintendo and find a major difficiency in that area relatively speaking, well chances are I think a potential customer will have been lost at that point.

Though the market may begin to expect these kind of features in earnest next-gen, I wouldn't say Nintendo has to follow the same pattern as their competition to be able to compete, not at all.  As I said in another thread, there is plenty of room for innovation in the execution of all this connectivity business.  I'm confident they can come up with a way to make online gaming profitable.  But.. I believe it'll take market pressure to force them to take the plunge, and absorb some of the risk and/or inevitable initial costs.  I think that there are perculiar circumstances associated to the prospects of online gaming via console.  Yes, there aren't a lot of people engaged in it this generation, even fewer people who actually have the option to do so.  But I believe this is one of those things that can only truly grow, expand, and mature from the end of the content providers.  If the content is there, if the service is there, eventually the people will come and yes they will pay. I think Sony and Microsoft see it this way, although of course their perspective is skewed by what they can afford to offer. Well, if all broadband meant was faster loading webpages, then that quarter+ of north america currently subscribing to it wouldn't bother with it, and the percentage of usage would be far less.  I feel that of all the gaming companies, Nintendo should be the one helping to aggressively usher in a golden age for console gaming thanks to online playability and services, simply because they tend to do things in interesting ways and of course because their games above all others as I mentioned, are overflowing with the potential of it all.  

Will Nintendo listen to this sort of take on things? Nope, no great insight there, that much is just obvious.  Did they listen when designing the cube?  Not really, but at least they listened and responded more than they did in the preceding generation, if not to any person then at least to the circumstances at hand, so there's hope in that.  

[nemo_83]

NIntendo doesn't listen to the gamers.  Noone asked for drum games, or vacum cleaner games, or water gun simulators with scavenger hunts.  As a matter of fact the next damn Nintendo game that impliments the boring searching for of items that have no use in the gameplay I might just buy just so I can walk right back in and return it too.  Mario, Zelda, and Metroid have all have scavenger hunts.  Shines, Maps, and Artifacts were all required to beat those games and none of those items could be used.  Just collect them so you can finally get what you deserve.  A disappointing boss battle with a lame ending.  The use these scavenger hunts to lengthen the game.  Sort of like filler.  

They gave us a fisher price lunch box for a console.  Thats the way to get American gamers.  Even worse they handicaped their controller on purpose.  They used minidisks not because it seemed good for a handheld device, but because the big boys were allready using full sized dvds.  Why worry about the competition so much so to make it look like you don't care, when you could just care about what we want.

I didn't ask for tangly short cords that force me to buy a wavebird.  I didn't ask for itsy bitsy nuggets of memeory storage for my memory cards.  I didn't beg for Metroid to control like it was in third person.  I wanted camera control, that is the purpose of putting the camera in fp view.  So you don't have to program a camera system.  I didn't want complicated controls that require me to stop and hold down buttons so I can exercise my most important ability to defend myself from enemies.  

Nobody ever asked for nothing but ports, sequels, and remakes.  Isn't the purpose of third party developers supposed to be third party material.  It seems like everytime Nintendo announces a game its Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Donkey Konga, Pac Man, or Giftipia.  Can't we remember that four letter word kidy that has taken Nintendo from the top to where it is now.  Why are the new games being announced not Mario128(platforming not scavenging), realistic Zelda, Too Human, some Mature games, some new franchises that are mature games, and Kid Iccarus(rated M).  Why waste time on games like Doshin the Giant or Zelda 4 swords TT that sale like dirt due to snorgasm concepts or outrageous hardware requirements.  Where are the origianal titles on GBA?  Please I already have a SNES with all of the games that were good.  Sorry Nintendo I'm just gonna have to pass on you next Kirby or whatever other child game you create until you remember me.  I'm the guy that once bought your stuff, but now find myself wondering why is this game so perfect but no fun (Sunshine) or I could have created five control layouts better than this (Metroid).  I'm the guy standing in EB really pissed because I can't find a game worth buying that came out after Zelda WW that isn't Rugrats or Scooby Doo.

[KnowsNothing]

that last post pissed me off to no end.  if this is what you think of Nintendo, then why are you here? go away.  i'm going easy on you this time

and it's "kiddy" with five letters.

Nintendo doesn't listen to it's fas nearly as much as they should be, but it's not that big of a deal.  Nintendo seems to know what we want, which an enjoyable game.  Has Nintendo ever failed at that?


 

[The Omen]

To say nobody asked for this and that works both ways.  We didn't ask for Zelda to be changed to 3d, but it worked incredibly.  They didn't even have to do a Metroid at all.  Something being innovative is often something that was never asked for or expected.  .

[nemo_83]

I spelled kiddy wrong on purpose.  Why?  Because I knew some jerk would come along and try and correct me on the fact that kiddy isn't a four letter word.  Do you know what the expression four letter word represents?  

This brings me to another point.  It seems that some people are happy no matter what Nintendo does.  I on the other hand am objective.  I'm not going to sit through another Donkey Kong 64 scavenger hunt from hell.  I'm not swallowing that junk again.  It was NOT fun and neither was Sunshine.  I wanted to race to the end of a stage at high speeds jumping and flying like I could twenty years ago.  I guess the game got lost somewhere in all of those shiny graphics.  I'm here for the games.  Not fancy marketing ploys or gimmicks like bullet time.  I'm on my way to my degree in design now and I see how bad Nintendo's marketing has been and truly understand why it has stunk so bad.  The best add they ever did was the comercial for SSB on the N64.  They are not witty when it comes to selling games.  They dodge the kiddy topic rather than addressing it and solving the problem.  A vulgar Kid Iccarus game with a take no prisoners additude marketing plan could squash the kiddy image.  The add could say "Kiddy?" and from there the sky is the limit with what they can do with the game's commercials.  Okay it will most likely take several games, but the games shouldn't be spaced years apart with tons of rugrats games in between.

The big deal with Nintendo not listening to the fans, developers, or the media is because it is so obvious to everyone and their neighbor what Nintendo does wrong.  Maybe the root of the problem is that an artist (Shig) is basically controlling the most important decisions in a billion dollar company instead of a buisnessman or lawyer.  Okay the idea of taking him out of the picture is scary.  I'm just saying maybe he isn't always right.  He is the main reason that "mature" games don't come out of Nintendo often.  I was so surprised by the Metroid game.  One because the series was never as big in Japan as in America from a sales point of view.  They say they like to make games that sell on both sides of the world...so whats with Doshin?  Why would Nintendo bother focusing on their weak points like the American and European markets like any other smart company would.  They usually don't do this.  Want an example?  They use the GC to sell the GBA which is allready a success.  Why not use the GBA to sell the GC which many see as a failure.  By the way why is it a failure, but the Xbox a success?  Plus why make Metroid, from their point of view it wouldn't sell, if the hardcore are salivating over the idea then it must mean it will fail right?  Well maybe that idea was wrong.

So Metroid was a surprise, but it had a catch.  You had to do things the way Nintendo wanted you to.  No options for control were given.  This is not a surprise though.  Nintendo never does this kind of thing.  But usually their control schemes work out.  With Metroid there was plenty of debate over the controls.  I'm coordinated enough to use my cstick for camera rather than a target button that is more suited for firing.  Maybe the real prob here lies in the fact that Nintendo was too stubborn to put a second z button, let alone one that wasn't just slapped on.  

Last gen they didn't use cds.  This gen they didn't use dvd player tech.  Next gen what will they do?  Include dvd playback then?  By then its a bit too late for that.  Maybe the Q should have been released in America where its double functionality would have been a greater selling point.  By 05 or 06 everyone will have dvd players and it really won't matter then.  But Nintendo being late to figure things out will fork out the cash to include dvd playback rather than tivo or a modem or a harddrive.  

A lot of my humor didn't come over at all in my last post.  I wanted to get my point across that we were asking for a GTA killer or Kid Iccarus game, not a drumb game.  I have more to say but will be back.  

[nemo_83]

Their biggest mistakes have always been the most obvious.  Cartriges anyone?  Maybe we should ask Square what they think.  So its just now that they realize one game can't sale a system.  Especially when the game is Luigi's Mansion and not a Mario 64 calibur system seller.  

The decissions we all knew were bad from the get go like the z button, the purple color, the lazy advertising, and dvd playback have come back to bite Nintendo in the arse.  With competion like MS and Sony there is little room for mistakes.  Especially mistakes like not showing the media jack about a game until a month before it is released because their ideas are apparently always earhshatering...a freaking watergun...come on who is gonna take that idea in three months and shell out something that could compete with Mario on the charts.  

To top it off where is the most obvious system seller?  PokemonRPG?  No we get another freaking stadium game.  Why by the way does GBA get all of the rpgs?  Mario and Luigi despite its odd concept would have at least been one more rpg on Cube.  Not even Nintendo wants to put rpgs on Cube.  Even the Mother game will end up on GBA.  Why not aim for the same market of rpgers that play PS2 and GBA.   FF CC will be one of probably two or three rpgs by the end of this gen worth owning on Cube.  It better be worth owning.  Also where is VFQ and how supper deformed are these characters gonna be and are they  trying to get this game labled kiddy?  I would have loved that nifty VF4.5 on PS2 to have come to Cube.  

[KDR_11k]

1. Most of the questions or accusations in those last few posts have been answered already in many other posts on this forum, so it's pointless to repeat the same things all over again to people who don't listen until you point a gun at their face.

2. Mature doesn't equal Mature-rated! Actually I'm happier the lower the rating is, because they enforce 'em here! Mortal Kombat? Resident Evil? GTA3? Forget it, those things aren't for "kids" (i.e. anyone under 18!). Most retailers remove 18+ titles from their shelves anyway, as you're not even allowed to advertise them. I think we can agree that Metroid Prime isn't exactly kiddy, but it's not rated 16+ either. Without advertising (media coverage counts as this as well) you cannot get anything to the casual gamers everyone talks about so how are you going to feed 'em the news that you just got a new AAA mature title? (and why does it seem to me that only Americans care about the actual rating?)

3. Yeah, right. Valve can't sell Half-Life 2 because they held back the info so long...

4. Why didn't they choose DVDs? Because they like to screw over the casual gamer? Or because they like to screw over the pirates? With GC games I can be sure they're not counterfeit when buying second hand. Can't say that about other systems.

5. Ever noticed a flaw in the mature Kid Icarus? Right, KID Icarus! They'd have to rename the game, meaning they could just as well drop the Kid Icarus idea completely.

[nemo_83]

That is the point of the head on approach in advertising Kid Iccarus.  Don't hide or change the name.  People will remember the kid from the day.  To conquer the kiddy image the name might imply make the game not just mature but also M rated mature.  Many believe dead phoenix will emerge from the ashes as Kid Iccarus.  This was the initial image I had in my mind when I first saw the game.  But the videos didn't impress me much.  Looked like Dynasty Warriors meets Panzer Dragoon.

[KnowsNothing]

But I believe Dead Phoenix was cancelled, no?

[darknight06]

Unfortunately, it was along with a couple others I believe.

[Bill Aurion]

Point #1)  I believe a lot of you are forgetting Ninty is a Japanese company, so what they do and what kind of games they produce will ALWAYS be different from what those outside Japan want.  Take Donkey Konga for example.  I have heard nothing but *****ing on the game from American gamers, yet Japanese gamers can't wait for it.  Remember that Ninty doesn't want to lose their own country's following.  

Point #2)  Ninty can't follow everyones' suggestions, especially when everyones' suggestions contradict each others'

Point #3)  Another thing that gamers, especially Ninty gamers, fault in.  OVERANTICIPATION.  Ninty says something will be unique and different and gamers take that quote as something absolutely revolutionary and amazing.  How about toning your expectations down a notch or two?

So how bout you guys let Ninty do the business that they have succeeded staying alive in since the mid-80's?

[Cell]

Well we can't >stop< Nintendo from doing what they've been doing, unless we just stop buying their products I guess, which I'm not about to suggest obviously heh.
Rather than have Nintendo settle for 'staying alive' for another decade, I rather they do everything in their power to be competitive and provide us with the best >overall< gaming platform/experience there is to be had.   You know, as opposed to stumbling all over themselves, insisting on carts instead of CD's, therefore handing Sony the market type-thing (no, they will never live that down in my book).  They've done nothing so grievous I believe this generation, but it's obviously not without it's own plethora of foul ups (like their piss poor advertising for example).  In general, when I complain about what Nintendo is doing or how they're handling things, it's just because I see a squandering of their true potential.  I'm not asking for a Nintendo DVD player, I'm just asking for silver instead of purple, or sleek/cool versus their current chunky playskool purse approach to console design.  What to do on the game side of things, which is all the more important, well I've gone over it too many times already in other posts and I don't feel like doing it here again.

Point is the smallest of tweaks to their approach and they can potentially attract a lot more mindshare and cold hard cash than they currently do, without defying their game design philosophies or breaking the bank either, but that's simply how I look at it.  See when they fail to do those simple things, and insist on doing things 'their way', well it upsets me because I know I'm looking at a company with the assets to do more than just 'survive' for a long time to come. But apparently, that's not 'their way' of seeing it, I hope they prove me wrong.

[manunited4eva22]

I would like to place a well deserved WTF to KDR's last post

2) You know what, to an extent I agree, but when you say a rating has nothing to do with it you are way off. Let's look at film, some of the most mature movies have been PG, but the truely dark ones have been R. Why? Because life can't always be explained through words and avoid the grittyness of violence. Whether or not younger guys are able to understand that is a different issue, but you know what, I am 15, and if those two years are going to make me change my opinion to the point where I will be far more suited to this genre, well then I have to hand it to the ESRB. If not, then it really does show that the rating are meant to be a guide, not a law.

3) Are you insane? Half life 2 will sell like hot cakes.

4) The issue here is the SIZE. Wow, would it have made a difference to the ability of the disc to be pirated if it was the size of a normal dvd, instead of one the size of a mini-dvd? The answer is most definately no.

[BlkPaladin]

You have to remember that not one of the console manufactures listen to what their fans say. After you get that out you way you have to understand they make asumpsions on groups and how the massmarket will act in the next five years.

Then they look into their needs and if they are considerate the need of the other developers, the only one that really did that last generation is Nintendo.

[KDR_11k]

manunited:
2. I think it's clearly wrong to demand violence from a game. Violence is a way, not the goal. Trimming a game toward violence usually makes for bad games. You can't change your image by putting out bad games. Maybe you meant they should accept violence, not change the game to remove it?
3. Sarcasm. I thought I didn't need to explicitly mark it. Someone here said N should show footage more than just a few months before release, but Valve did the same.
4. Try fitting a standard-size DVD-R into your GC's drive. Effective, eh? Putting the minidisks into your DVD-drive will seriously shorten the drive's life expectancy, so I think it's a legitimate point. Of course, a custom size would be best, because you could ask DVD-R manufacturers for what reason they produce disks in your non-standard format.

[Whizzy McTinkles]

I don't think companies "listen" to what gamers want, its not like they make a concerted effort to create national polls on what people want, instead they try to do what they think would be best accepted by their audience, and well Nintendo wanted a "family friendly" machine and figuered a purple lunchbox would be a-okay. Now, I believe Nintendo will go for a sleeker, "cooler" look next generation, but they will continue to do all sorts of things however which way they want, and it'll leave us scratching our heads yet again, but it'll be fun to see what it is they make questionable decisions on.

[manunited4eva22]

I don't really care whether they trim violence or not. Violence won't go away, it's pointless to try to stop something that will happen. You can only hope to catch the publics attention in another way, so violence is not wanted.

As for companies not giving you what you want, well if any of you know exactly what you want and know everything about how it is good for said company, you already work for them.

[BigJim]

Nintendo admittedly listened to developers when making the Cube... and I bet it was their own, first and foremost. Not necessarily gamers. In fact, I bet Shiggy has a big amount of input in platform design.

Listening to gamers gives you the Xbox allinoneclusterfvck of a machine. Bottomless pit of a cost center.

[nemo_83]

I don't see violence as a nececity but rather as product of the process of making most forms of entertainment.  Occasionally games like Mortal Kombat use it in a way that it sucks.  Because the game seems like it is built around the violence.  Nintendo shouldn't be afraid to have sex, drugs, violence, and cursing in some games.  Look to the creative freedom of movies and books and what it has yielded us.  Violence and such can be taken to an extreme to make a political statement with the game (look at Toxic Avenger 4 the movie).  Some games though should never make it past the idea stage, such as BMXxxx.  I like the abillity to be the one to determine whether there will be any sex, drugs, or violence through open ended play.  That usually results in a lot of sin though.  Last of all we need to remember that its a freaking video game.  Even the most realistic ones come nowhere near reality and can never have the impact that say CNN can have on a childs mind.  I can't believe our gov't showed dead bodies for a week on tv.  American families are not concerned with what their kids play because they realize that they are just playing.  Plus younger kids don't want things for their age, they want what the older kids are playing.  

MS did listen...about the hardware (where are the games MS?).  They gave people a pc in a box which has a great price.  They looked at how people have been tripping on cords since their first system so they gave the plug in a safety trip.  I think its a waste of money on their part, but its a cool little thing most people don't notice.  They allowed for one to play mp3s during a game.  Then there was the controller.  American gamers kept saying they want a controller for their hands.  Then it came and it was a bit too big.  People complained, MS listened and within a year there was a new standard controller for the system.  They still screwed up those black and white buttons.  The point is Sony is the one that didn't listen.  Sony had a shoty launch lineup, the same controller, only two controller ports, no modem, and no harddrive.  That system sold on the gimmick of standing it up and playing dvds on it.  Nintendo listened to the Japanese giving them a smaller console and controller that fits their hands.  

[vroenis]

filmmakers run test audience screenings, and also watch forums closely.
sure, game designers and console manufacturers have their own in-house testing, but why should each party act any differently to filmmakers?  perhaps it's budgetary, films with large budgets, x-men/star wars have the means by which to watch anticipation, comments, likes and dislikes, i suppose it's up to the directors etc and how keen they are to see responses - but especially in forums like this one and ign to name a few, they're not exactly backyard projects, these are places where the people who play their games the most are talking about them.
and yeah, it's a lot of text to wade through, but shouldn't ALL staff of just about ALL aspects of the industry - hardware, perhipherals and software - first, second and third party companies, be constantly surfing forums and guaging responses and anticipation?
perhaps this goes on already, this essentially was what i wanted to know how you all feel about it - do you think it happens, should it happen more, can it have a negative effect of hampering designer's creativity - the ability to give gamers something they're not expecting yet make the product successful.
is there a balance?