Topic: Disney bought Fox: Fox Shareholders Agreed to $71B Disney Buyout!!

[UncleBob]

as people including myself are going to get attached to certain IP

That's a 'you' issue though.

You know, I absolutely loved the Skylanders franchise.

And they ran it into the ground.  And now it's a reskinned shitty mobile game that throws the thing I enjoyed most out the window.

So I walked away.

Don't get too attached to entertainment that you cannot walk away from it when it stops entertaining you.

[oohhboy]

You are taking it completely the wrong way. It's not walking away or being able to is the issue. I have walked away from two of the biggest IP that exist. I have dropped shows when they became trash. The vast majority have bleed out over time and don't have that level of attachment making it easier to leave. You feel disappointed at worse.

Certain IP were cultural touchstones that formed apart of you. It is not something you abandon lightly. That hurts.

The emotional pain inflicted by the failure is real. The failures has to be immense for that to happen. That is the part you missed.

It isn't a "You" problem.

[lolmonade]

You know, I absolutely loved the Skylanders franchise.

And they ran it into the ground.  And now it's a reskinned shitty mobile game that throws the thing I enjoyed most out the window.

So I walked away.

Don't get to attached to entertainment that you cannot walk away from it when it stops entertaining you.

Skylanders...

Rogue One was a good 1/3 of a movie, it's a really good 1/3 but damn what a mess leading up to it. I wouldn't be surprised if 2/3 was re-shot as it doesn't feel SW or matches the last 1/3. The difference in quality is startling.

Rogue One is the 2nd best star wars movie since the original trilogy, fite me!

[UncleBob]

>Certain IP were cultural touchstones that formed apart of you.

See, here's the thing. The IP isn't what "formed apart of you."

A Wrinkle in Time is my absolute favorite book of all time.  It's an amazing book that means so much to me that I have a second edition printing on a shelf in my office.

This book has been made into two movies.  The first was a terrible, horrible mistake.  And I'm sorry to Ms. Larson, but the second wasn't much better (and I was soooo excited to see it that I bought my tickets in advance and saw it opening night, in spite of all the warning signs in the early reviews).

Even with these two terrible movies, ya know what?  The book is still there.  These movies didn't suddenly become my only way to enjoy this 'cultural touchstone' that means so much to me.  In fact, the whole series of books are still there and I still recommend them to anyone who like reading.

If Disney ruined New Star Wars for you (how anyone could think what Disney did was worse than the Prequels, I will never understand), the OT is still there for you.  The Holiday Special is still out there in bootlegs.  You can still buy Angry Birds Star Wars merchandise.

If Disney has ruined the Marvel movies, you can still watch the original Spider-Man trilogy.  You can still the old Captain America and Punisher movies.  There's still an amazing backlog of thousands of comics you can go out and read.

And if Disney ruins Alien, the Simpsons (ehhhh...) or whatever your favorite FOX franchise is - you can still enjoy the original stuff.  No one is taking that away from you.  Disney buying FOX doesn't mean they get to go into your homes, go through your DVDs, and take away your FOX copy of Batman '66.

"This ain't mah Star Wars."  You're right,  You've had 40 years to enjoy your Star Wars.  Move on.

[oohhboy]

I don't disagree except I rank it #1. That last third captured SW as fleeting it was. I am pretty sure you ranked RotS as #1. Most do.



You really, really, really don't get it. It's no that the OT is gone or it's not for you anymore (BS standard excuse for failure). It's that you no longer have anything to look forward to from it, it ended on such a negative way, a monumental failure. It was something that was important to you. Maybe your father showed it to you in a bonding moment and sparking your love for Sci-fi. How is that not a part of you?

The failure isn't just a subjective one. The shows had failed on an objective level. Stories so bad it can't keep it straight scene to scene. Have a character do something you know that is against their fundamental nature. So bad it couldn't put 1+1 together to save it's life. Pointless avoidable errors so bad it insults your intelligence.

There is a massive difference with you example. Making a movie from a book is a transformative work. The transformation changes the context. It's why a TV franchise can push out as many bad novels as it wants and not impact the mainline.

If there is an reasonable understanding made before hand you can have things diverge that generally work out ok. eg, Game of Thrones.

There are many different version of Batman and that is ok because there is an understanding between the creators and the audience. If Nolan had made a 4th movie in the style of Adam West and insisted it was part of the Nolanverse you would tell him to get fucked.

When you are making a direct sequel or something within a universe it comes with responsibility and expectations. When you throw all that history into the wind and give everyone who invested in it the middle finger thinking slapping the name on some slop will sell it the failure is on the creator.

You never ever blame the viewer for the creator's failure. You're telling me and millions of others it's our fault for getting invested in something that was truly great. That is why what you are saying is so ass backwards. That is in part why everyone is pissed off.

[UncleBob]

>If Nolan had made a 4th movie in the style of Adam West and insisted it was part of the Nolanverse you would tell him to get fucked.

I would have loved that.  Would have been better than the third movie, at least.

>You're telling me and millions of others it's our fault for getting invested in something that was truly great.

That is absolutely not what I'm saying.  If you were invested in the OT and thought it was great - there is no reason you can't still think it is great!

Basically, you spend your first year shitting your diaper and your parents change them for you - great!

And now, you're 40 and **** your pants and get pissed because your parents will no longer change them for you.

Absolutely NO ONE is obligated to make entertainment for *you*.  Likewise, you are not obligated to buy it or partake in it (watch, read, play, whatever).  But to get 'pissed' because Lucas made the shitty prequels or Disney has made some... questionable sequels... Like, move on man.

Lemme ask this - would it have been better if Lucas had not sold the right to Disney, instead just shelved the entire license forever?

[lolmonade]

Absolutely NO ONE is obligated to make entertainment for *you*.  Likewise, you are not obligated to buy it or partake in it (watch, read, play, whatever).

This is really what it boils down to for me, too.  I'm not going to be dismissive of other people's feelings of grievance for future entries into beloved series not being what you want.  But the thing you love is always going to be there.  Like....Sonic 1 & 2 are always going to be there for me to have a fondness for, the bad 3D versions and Sonic the Hedgehog 4 were disappointing (especially after it had been so long since there was a 2D Sonic), but it doesn't erase the quality and memories associated with the thing that drew me to it in the first place.


I just want to pre-beg people here - Please, PLEASE don't start talking about how the fans have as much ownership of a property as the creators.  You don't.  The creators might value input and feedback, but you have no stake in it outside of your enjoyment of it, and creators are only responsible to cater to your desires insofar as they might still want your interest/business.

[oohhboy]

You have the absolutely worse non sequitur nonsense analogues, I don't even know why you make them. Just stop. It's also stupid gross.

Creators definitely have a responsibility it to the audience and what came before. It includes emotional investment because their business is based on it, it's their currency. They definitely have a responsibility to make a good show. That is their job.

Those viewers were YOUR CUSTOMERS, your most ardent supporters who continued to carry SW even after the PT. That investment is part of how you sell a movie, how they found any success. Do you really think SW would still be a thing now it it wasn't for the fans to showing it to their children and friends so they become fans? Keeping in in the cultural lexicon. They most effective marketing machine they could possible ever have and not only do they pay nothing, they got paid for all this free marketing.

The creators most certainly have no right to insult viewers in or outside of the movie. For all his faults GL never made this mistake. He made bad movies and stupid edits but he never alienated the fan base. He took the hits which after which everybody had a laugh and started making memes, brought more stuff.

Culture is more than the exchange of money. Culture means more than that. There are more significant. SW was one of them.

If the only thing you measure a movie is money they made every bad business decision possible.

[UncleBob]

Creators definitely have a responsibility

That is their job.

YOUR CUSTOMERS

The creators most certainly have no right

You're one of those "The customer is *always* right!!!!!11one" Karens, aren't you?

Would it have been better if Lucas had not sold the right to Disney, instead just shelved the entire license forever?

[lolmonade]

Well, this conversation was fun while we hadn't yet gotten to trading barbs....

[oohhboy]

If you do a good job, make good product you get paid. You **** up you have to take responsibility for it and the customer has every right to take them to task over it. The creators have done this to themselves. They offered steak, everyone knows what a stake is, the customer ordered steak only to be served absolute garbage. The customer correctly calls them out on this. The customer every has the right to tell everyone you serve garbage as it is factually true.

Congratulations, you have just killed your business.

Legally no given customer owns the IP nor collectively. However there is an implicit social contract that grants the customers collective partial ownership and a level of control once you reach critical mass. The creator must acknowledge this collective, work with it as it is what give that creator the ability to do what they do. Violate that contract at your peril.

Well, this conversation was fun while we hadn't yet gotten to trading barbs....

Unless you don't count bobs disgusting writing

[UncleBob]

Would it have been better if Lucas had not sold the right to Disney, instead just shelved the entire license forever?

[oohhboy]

Would it have been better if Lucas had not sold the right to Disney, instead just shelved the entire license forever?

Question is moot.

[UncleBob]

In your opinion, would you have preferred Lucas to have shelved the license over selling to Disney?

[oohhboy]

In your opinion, would you have preferred Lucas to have shelved the license over selling to Disney?

Question is moot.

[UncleBob]

ITT: Disney and Lucas should have to listen to oohhboy's opinions.  Also, oohhboy says his opinions are moot.

[oohhboy]

Be disingenuous if you want.

Not matter how you reword the same question there is no reason to answer it.

[UncleBob]

There's also no reason to go on for multiple paragraphs about how evil Disney is for ruining our entire civilization's culture... but it makes for interesting conversation

[oohhboy]

Hyperbole won't get you anywhere.

[UncleBob]

Neither will this conversation.

[oohhboy]

Why are you continuing to be so disingenuous?

[UncleBob]

You've spent more time making pointless replies of nothing rather than giving your opinion on a very simple question and wonder why I am being disingenuous.

[oohhboy]

Why should I answer that question? Was that the only thing you could come up with to a well reasoned response?

[UncleBob]

Because sharing information, thoughts, and opinions is the purpose of any conversation.

[oohhboy]

It's not relevant to the topic despite your insistence.