Topic: Nintendo In Retrospect and Foresight

[rodtod]

It's a well-known fact that history repeats itself. So, on one hand it'd make sense that the next generation of videogames will bear many similarities to this one, the previous one, and so on. And yet on the other hand, the next generation could be totally different, if the industry learns from the mistakes made in this generation.

To figure out what might happen to the next Nintendo console, let's take a look at a time when the GCN was simply known as "Project Dolphin", the "Anti-64", etc.

http://web.archive.org/web/19991013182220/www.gamefusion.com/gf-dolphin-cove/

Anyone remember this site? This was made Fran Mirabella III big. He's currently and editor at IGN Cube. Anyhow, by looking at the news and interviews floating around on the Internet prior to the Gamecube's launch, we can see that Nintendo delivered in some aspects, and failed to do so in others.

Things that changed:

For the worse:

Nintendo delays the launch of "Dolphin" from mid-2000 to late 2001, giving Sony's PS2 a huge lead.

Many anticipated games, such as Too Human from SK, a Pokemon rpg from Nintendo, a Jet Force Gemini sequel and Perfect Dark 0 from Rare, Thornado from Factor 5, and a car combat game, adventure-rpg, and more from Retro Studios were either cancelled or delayed indefinitely.

Many interesting features, such as built-in online compatibility, Q (the dvd-cube hybrid) making it stateside, putting your face on game characters (PD 0, anyone?), and more were either never realized, or delayed for more than a year.

Nintendo's marketing in North America went down the crapper. It has all but vanished from Western media (how often do you see Nintendo mentioned in the news anymore, even when it's about videogames?).

For the better:

In addition to updating old-school hits, Nintendo releases new franchises, such as Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Lost Kingdoms, etc., with sequels already available or well on the way.

Nintendo starts re-building its 3rd party support: Capcom, Sega, and even Konami show interest in Nintendo's hardware.

New management. Nintendo adopts a more offensive stance, rather than an indifferent one, and is now intent on competing with Sony and Microsoft.

The overall cycle:

Nintendo did not hold fast to its initial plans, and suffered. Developers come and go. Relatively low interest in the Gamecube, but stellar success with the Gameboy Advance and GBA SP.

How this can be applied in the upcoming generation:

Nintendo is fully aware of the consequences for releasing a late system. They'll push for an early launch. They will also capitalize on the portable market, this time aiming to squash the portable PlayStation and maintain their monopoly.

[KnowsNothing]

1)  it is not a definite fact that history repeats itself.  It may be that history has repeated itself, there is no way to tell if it will happen again.  Hell, maybe an evil virus will spread killing all mainstreem gamers.

2)  Isn't this what every one is saying?  Early launch, 3rd party games, the importance of having a handheld monopoly, etc.

[thought in back of mind] Hold on, I thought monopolies were illegal.  I know that Nintendo is not doing anything illegal, but as of now they have a monolpoly.  Could someone please explain how this is?  I'm not saying that Nintendo's Gameboy should be taken off the market or anything, but Nintendo could raise the price of their products and there's be no where esle to turn.  Could somebody please explain this to a stupid child?  [/thought in back of mind]

It's great that Nintendo has learned their mistakes.  Hooray for next generation.  My post was pointless.  Hooray.    

[Nintendo Gamecube]

If Nintendo raised their prices for Game Boy no one would buy it. Hence, their market would fail and cause massive loss of cash for Nintendo. In one sense, this monoply can't really hurt us because it is not a necessity for life.

Microsoft, on the other hand, was broken apart because of its monoply because computers are essential to today's businesses and life too.  

[Ian Sane]

The Gameboy is not truly a monopoly because there's nothing to stop someone else from coming along and making their own handheld.  In order to it to be a true monopoly Nintendo would have to be making an effort to prevent competition.  If they made it so that GBA developers must sign exclusivity agreements then they would essentially have a monopoly.  

[Super Mekman]

I really don't see how being the first to market could help Nintendo gain a lead in the next generation of home consoles.

Sega was the first to market with both the Genesis (16-bit era) and the Dreamcast (128-bit era). I don't remember but I think they were first to market also with the Saturn (32-bit era).

It could be another Dreamcast scenario.

There is nothing wrong with going second, which is what Sony, did with the pS2. (How were they first to market in the 128-bit console age?) Even Nintedno went second with the Super Nes opposing the Genesis.

I really don't see how it could work for Nintendo hardware-wise (giving the opposition time to build a machine with better capabilities) and even in selling units.

People they might just say again, "Let's just wait for PS3."

This sort of "short memory" Nintendo seems to be having lately is worrying me a bit.

I hope they make consoles for years to come, but they have to make games more appealing to a wider audience that's the only real way to get ahead. Zelda WW was great but it was bad timing to change Link the way they did, and there are other things, like lots of niche' games like Animal crossing.

You need to wow the public. Not a lot of people are in love with Nintendo like they used to be. Or at least the way they remember it. Sometimes you gotta' grow up with your audience if you want to keep them.

Going first won't change anything for Nintendo, you can't educate the masses in quality gaming, at least not until you have their attention.

[Chode2234]

You bring up a log of interesting points.  I myself don't see the benifit of an EARLY release, just make sure it isn't a LATE release.  I think if it releases at the same time as the competition with some really good games to go with it, people will buy the darn thing.  Consumers aren't (some are) as stupid as we think.  Give them a reason to buy the next nintendo system.  

I think if it was released at the same time it would help its sales too.  Capture some of the momentum of the moment.  Imagine everyone running out an buying a new console at the same time.  Just make sure the release lineup is solid with promise of future games.  If nintendo releases when everyone else does and has some great games to take home with it, how could people not buy it.  I just hope they aren't upstaged again by the competition.

Its all about perception.  Nintendo needs to improve its image and perception, it has been tarnished by GCN, which is considered the epitimy of a "kiddy system."  Not to bring that argument up, but how can nintendo appeal to everyone without alieniating anyone from the kids, us loytalists, etc.?  I hear people say "We need more mature games", but doesnt that alienate the kids.

I agree Nintendo needs to improve its image in percetion to appeal to everyone, but how do they do it?

[ThePerm]

Microsoft was never broken up, the judge was declared bias and his sentence was overturned. Sadly

[rodtod]

As I was waiting in line for the GCN launch, some parents were talking about all the new systems that were coming out at the time. Their main reason for being in that line with me, was because the GCN was the cheapest of the new consoles and, as they put it, "It's Nintendo after all".

I think the main reason Nintendo isn't trying to grow up with its gamers is because they know that the first generation of Nintendo gamers are now in a position to buy games for their kids. Which system are they going to choose? Nintendo, of course.

I agree with Super Mekman and Chode that Nintendo should release at least at the same time as the competition. And, in addition to that, if they do release with a system that's the least expensive of the bunch, they're definitely going to do well from the get-go.

[ThePerm]

" think the main reason Nintendo isn't trying to grow up with its gamers is because they know that the first generation of Nintendo gamers are now in a position to buy games for their kids. Which system are they going to choose? Nintendo, of course."

Rodtod...thats pretty genious...but even if you were a parent your spoiled kid would yell at you for not gettign the cool xbox. The strategy aint working....but its a great idea....

[The Omen]

I agree with most of the opinions in this thread, but i'll go to the biggest problem-advertising.  Nintendo has older gamers, like myself, who grew up with them.  They also have the under 13 wrapped up.  The main problem is the teenage market.  Nintendo must be more proactive in their advertising.  If it means taking swipes at the competition, then so be it.  Teenagers want to be cool.  Lets give them a reason to feel that the GC is the 'bad-ass' machine.  Do i like the changes in perception i just mentioned?  No.  But i see thats what the market has become.  Even if its just the initial hook, the teen market, by buying a Nintendo system ,will be enthralled by the great games we already know about  Then word of mouth, and so on.  And, thats all thats needed....  

[Chode2234]

Good point Omen.  How does Nintendo do it?  How does it make Mario and Zelda "cool" to the teenie-boppers.  Its hard to do without destroying the franchise.  

I think one possibility is to have different studios working on different themes of games.  Kind of like Sega's "Dark water" brand thingy they had out way back when to designate it to mature games.  I guess it didnt work to well for sega though.

I guess my question is how does Nintendo make itself "cooler" without loosing me (the loyalist) and the kidsies?  

[Ian Sane]

"How does Nintendo do it? How does it make Mario and Zelda "cool" to the teenie-boppers. Its hard to do without destroying the franchise."

Well it wouldn't really be that hard.  Nintendo doesn't have to add violent content or anything to make these games cooler.  They just have to remove some of the useless cutesy stuff that makes the games appear to be "kiddy".  Zelda for example was considered cool until it went cel-shaded.  Just make the next Zelda game look more like Ocarina of Time and that would be fine.  The N64 Zeldas were cool without being exploitive and they still had a look that was "kidsafe".

As for Mario one thing that would really help is if they didn't have him talking so much.  Nobody thought Mario was "kiddy" until he started "yahooing" and "wheeheeing" all over the place.  Plus don't add anything extra cute for no reason.  Super Mario RPG is exactly what to do to make Mario look cool.  Mario didn't speak in that game so he seemed more neutral.  He was more like Link in that his personality wasn't really shown so you could feel more like YOU were Mario and thus could relate to him better.  Plus the graphics were quite detailed and sharp for the time.  They probably were the best graphics on the SNES.  Yet it still looked like Mario.  Building still looked like Mario buildings, they just didn't look like a cartoon.  Everything doesn't have to be super happy in order for it to be Mario.  Graphics can be detailed, colours don't have to always be bright, and enemies can look intimidating.

[The Omen]

I never thought i'd say bring back the so-called 'realistic' zelda, but it may be needed to get the 'cool' market.  Nintendo has to take the stance" 'why would you buy 'that' when you can have 'this'" in its advertisements.  Show people Eternal Darkness(example) in a one minute ad instead of 15 seconds.  Show RE ad nauseum so that it gets burnt into these teens(not all teenagers )  brains.  My little cousin, 15, didn;t even know RE was exclusive to the GC until i told him.  Flaunt what you got, and even what you dont have yet. (Halo 2 anyone?)  Make a real Mario game, like SMB, side scrolling.  Nostalgia works.  Keep hyping everything up until people think Nintendo when they hear 'video games'.    i am convinced that Nintendo lost this generation because M$ hyped up the ying-yang.  They may not be losing in pure numbers, but if advertised properly, Nintendo would be in 2nd all by itself, and rather comfortably.  M$ understands that its not what you got, its what you say you've got.

[Chode2234]

Thats exactly it, give them a good reason to buy Nintendo vs. the other guys.   The reasons are out there now, but nobody knows about them.  

As far as "mature" zelda, I don't know about that, I thought it was great the way it was, perhaps a little too cute in spots but almost perfect presentation.  

I personally think it would be wise for Nintendo to develop different franchises to appeal to the more "mature" crowd.  Create a less cartooney advanture game etc.

I agree that Nintendo does slime up its games with a little too much cute lately.  OOT wasn't nearly as cutsy as WW, in either game the graphics weren't realilstic, but it fealt more realistic because you didn't feel like bambie was going to jump out of the bush at any second.  Zelda has always been zany though, and WW reflects that.  I say develop something new, more mainstream and contemporaty.  

I am just kind of sad because this generation has been just an evolutionary one, nothing really new or must have.  Its just been a step up in graphics and a shine on gameplay.  Give me something that will do to me what SM64 did when I powered that up for the first time.  Give me a good reason to buy a new nintendo console.

[BigJim]

Quote
Originally posted by: Ian Sane
The Gameboy is not truly a monopoly because there's nothing to stop someone else from coming along and making their own handheld.  In order to it to be a true monopoly Nintendo would have to be making an effort to prevent competition.  If they made it so that GBA developers must sign exclusivity agreements then they would essentially have a monopoly.

That's not how a monopoly is defined. A monopoly is simply one entity with controlling share.

The prevention of competition makes an ILLEGAL monopony, i.e. Microsoft in the browser market.

Being a monopoly in itself is not illegal.

[Hostile Creation]

Hey, I like Mario's woohooing.

I don't think Mario needs a teen-bopper appreciation remake thing.  People will buy Mario because it's Mario.  I think it's been established that cel-shaded Zelda is pretty cool, even to those people that originally didn't like it, so while realistic graphics could help, I doubt it would make that much of a difference.

[Chode2234]

My point exactly.  I love Mario and Zelda for what they are, and have very clear and high expectations for them.  That is why Nintendo could work on developing different franchises while still remaining true to the existing ones.  No one really wants to see Mario "killing hookers" I think it the reference most make around here.  But many people would like to see Nintendo branch out of its comfort zone a little, or at least have other developers do it for them.  I think the image of nintendo is that it just wants to carve its niche in the market, many people don't buy a gamecube because they think it won't appeal to them because they are not a hardcore mario fan etc.

But I really think Nintendo needs to be bolder, especially in promoting new franchises that have mass market appeal.

[Super Mekman]

Yeah, I also agree that the graphics have been mostly evolutionary.
I think it's a shame, a real big shame that most "EAD games" Nintendo games never seem to push the hardware.

Third parties are great but it will always be a Nintendo game that should sell a system.

A lot of people didn't pay 200+ to see" flat" Cel-Shaded graphic on their favorite character. They wanted something to swagger on about in front of their X-Box and PS2, (Dead or Alive 3, and Devil May Cry) buddies.

I'm not perfectly sure also if "kids" actually do enjoy Gamecube. I live in Manhattan and meeting kids in the NYC Pokemon Center I find a lot of them not actually play or own Gamecube, also like my brother always says. He's not a basketball fan, he's a Michael Jordan fan.

Most kids will only get involved with Nintendo's Pokemon but not their machine.

On the flip side being a gamer and observing in the same store and others, many teenage gamers actually play the Gamecube kiosks available.

I still think the kind of gamer that buys most of these consoles and gets involved with video games are mostly teenagers.

Not kids, but people who "spend money" on them.

I've heard this before and I don't mind reiterating this.

Kids only like Pokemon and Yu Gi Oh!

I'm gotta get this off my chest, up until now all of these kind of games and their styles and who they are meant to appeal to were complete misfires. Guided by greed to obtain a market they thought they could milk. Trying to exploit children while discouraging "would be" Nintendo fans.

It didn't work.

It wouldn't kill Nintendo to appeal to folk who are sophisticated enough to enjoy more than one or two fad games.

That simply does not translate cynically into "shooting hookers." Oye!

[Chode2234]

I agree it seems nintendo has become increasingly greedy and less experimental.  Granted they are a business, but it seems they just want to milk what they have rather than risk expanding elsewhere.  

[Super Mekman]

I'm just hoping that they will make some serious adjustments to the way they do things for the next round of consoles, but knowing them…

(Consults Magic Eight Ball)

"Outlook not so good."

[The Omen]

Kids in fact do play GC, and its because they're too young to fit into the 'trying to be cool' sect.  Another reason kids(below12) play GC is because their parents grew up with Nintendo.  Its in between the 2 where Nintendo loses fans.  I believe there was a study a year ago that Nintendo was great above 21 and under 12, but very mediocre with the 13-20 crowd.  it is a fact, and one that Nintendo needs to address with its next system.   Advertise please!

[Chode2234]

Its facinating that kids who grew up on console games now have kids of their own.  That I think is the ultimate shift in market dynamics.  What will happen in 5-10 years when all the PS1 kids have kids, will that spell Nintendos doom?  Or do you believe Nintendo has appeal to people above the age of 20?  

Is it Nintendo nestalgia that draws the over 20, or do they not care as much as what is "cool" and are looking for the best games period?

Its interesting though that people buying video games for their kids now know something about them having played them themselves.  I remeber trying to talk my parents into buying me games and systems, them not having a clue what I was talking about, and worst yet sometimes buying me the wrong games for the wrong console.  

It represents a very dramatic and important aspect for marketing and consumer appeal, I hope this is part of Nintendos foresight since we havn't really touched on that yet.

Do you guys think Nintendo has good foresight?  If so what do you think they are trying to do in the industry?  Why, and how does that affect us as gamers and loyalists?

p.s. sorry to sound like an essay exam, but I think its facinating.  Something I hadn't thought about before.

[Super Mekman]

I believe Nintendo felt that they "had" good insight.

but it certainly hasn't carried them as close to the top as they wanted.

Sony is in the hearts of gamers right now and seeing as there is no end to their reign, it will most certainly carry over.

I think nostalgia aided the purchases of Gamecubes in 2001, but what really fueled it was the death of one console via an "electronics giant" and the entry of another "venture capitalist," who everyone thought would, "Rule them all," (eventually).

Then things got passionate and exciting, everyone was talking and thinking about video games. Plus you had Nintendo seemingly learning from it's mistakes with the N64, (with CD's as the new Storage medium) the original Spaceworld 2000 Zelda demo, and the new ads for the two Zelda Gameboy Color games fueling the fire.


(I mean "Geeze," in the Spaceworld demo you had Link is throwing away his shield while facing off against Gannondorf.  In the ads he's tossing off his cape and slamming scepters to the ground and reconstructing swords through his will and magic powers.)

With that fresh in our mind, (I remember it as clear as day, they ran those Gameboy Color Zelda ads at the same time the Space world 2000 demo was new,) people are hyped to see what Nintendo has done with its new Legend of Zelda. (I eventually got over it), but honestly on first sight, that morning I watched the picture appear on my screen, and he's two inches tall!

This was not the Link Nintendo had been advertising for that past month. I'm certain that killed a lot of "would be" fans right there.

Timing is everything.

Wind Waker has heart, it's great and it has an at times a funny story but, this was not the way to win anyone's heart. Not the hearts of the gamers who were excited for a Nintendo save us from the "venture capitalist," who spelled doom and lame games for all eventually crushing the gaming biz and then moving on to the next territory.

It was a big mistake. I really don't think Nintendo will ever have that kind of "momentum" behind them again.

It's over and it's sad.

You sold Zelda to the wrong people, you sold it to the kids.

That's the first and last time I'll ever say that.

It's just a very frustrating truth.

[Chode2234]

I wouldn't say never, it will just be very hard to keep that kind of momentum, especially after that let down you mentioned.

I agree, before the cube it seemed like they were so on the right track with everything, I was excited, so was everyone else, and then I woke up one morning and it had all fallen apart.  I came on the boards here to head up, and everyone had declared this generation a failure.  Nintendo killed its own buzz, how and why?

Mario and zelda overall dissapointed the masses, were expectations to high, or has N lost it?  I mean, come on,  Metroid should have moved TONS of systems just like goldeneye did the gen before.  

I myself am waiting for the 2nd gen of GCN games to see if they are on the right track.

I also agree they did to zelda what george lucas did with episode I, I still have my confidence though, they havn't let me down to badly yet, it just seems its everyone else.  Man, I feel downtrodden participating in this thread.

[Ian Sane]

To me Nintendo sealed the Gamecube's loss at E3 2001 when they revealed that Mario would not be a launch title and that Luigi's Mansion would be the Gamecube's flagship title instead.  So a quirky one dimensional concept game (with a concept that isn't the interesting to begin with) that can be beaten in a weekend is supposed to make people buy this new console?  OK.   I remember thinking that Nintendo was pretty much f*cked after that and sure enough they never really recovered.  Aside from their near launch titles none of their titles to my knowledge has sold nearly as well as expected and I figure a big part of that is because they failed to impress at launch.  Meanwhile the Xbox has sold quite well entirely on the strength of one huge launch title.  First impressions are a big deal and Nintendo blew it.

As for the "disappointment" with Mario and Zelda I felt that with those games EAD tried too hard to make them original sequels.  The result is a waterpack for Mario which in my opinion didn't really fit in and felt like doing something new for the sake of doing something new, and cel-shaded Zelda.  Two major changes that appeared unnatural and were not required to make a decent game.  They were still good games but they probably would have been better if EAD didn't have such an urge to be original for no reason.

Hopefully next generation Nintendo will realize that when you're recovering off of a "failed" console that being experimental isn't the best idea.  Get the strong userbase before you start changing everything for no reason.