Topic: The Wii U as a stepping stone.

[Ian Sane]

The funny thing is that the OS idea would probably benefit me better because I don't really like handhelds and I would be easier for me if I could just get the Nintendo console and not feel I was missing out on anything.  Maybe we would actually get a real Pokémon game on a console for a change.

But one factor in all this is third party support.  I own a 3DS but not a Wii U.  The games seem similar and I prefer consoles so why didn't I get the console?  Well third parties actually make 3DS games I want to play.  In terms of first party titles the two are not that different but the improved third party support on the 3DS gives it a superior overall lineup.

If Nintendo did this OS idea would third parties play along?  I figure Nintendo would once again design the whole thing with only themselves in mind and would be in someway incompatible with the third party console games designed for the other platforms.  So the Nintendo console would still have weak third party support.  Okay so maybe the handheld maintains decent support so we get console ports of the third party handheld games.  But the console still has to compete with Sony and MS who will have the "cutting edge" console games while Nintendo's console just gets handheld ports, and there is still a stigma that handheld games are inferior.  While I would want the console over the handheld I don't see North America embracing a glorified non-portable version of the handheld with arbitrarily incompatible games.  I already think the Wii U's marketability in this region was hurt largely because it seems so low tech.

The idea really seems like splitting the hybrid into two models and I figure one model will fail and probably the console one because consoles are supposed to be beefier than handhelds.  Now the hybrid wouldn't be able to have cutting edge hardware in order to have decent portability.  But I think marketing it as not so much a console, but a universal game system would make it work.  The concept is also more like Nintendo going with just a handheld but tailoring it in a way to work in all environments.  The timing could also play a factor.  If released years before the PS5/XB2 come out maybe the current gen level of tech will be old enough that they could make a handheld version of it and then it has a few years to build a userbase before consoles that would top its tech come out.  The PS Vita is already pretty advanced hardware for a handheld so in a couple of years you can probably make a pretty fancy hybrid.

I'd be a lot more optimistic with the OS idea if Nintendo made it so you buy one copy of the game and it works on both and the handheld version scales down like when you lower graphic settings in a PC game.  Maybe some games that really push the hardware only work on the console and maybe some games that need a touchscreen only work on the handheld but 90% of the library is the same game and you buy it once and it works for both - same physical media, same online account.  That effectively is the hybrid idea and it doesn't limit the console hardware so in a way it's better.

[Louieturkey]

I believe the Turbo Graphix 16 had a handheld version that used the same game cards.  Granted it cost like $200 more than the console, but they technically did this idea back in the 90s.

[NWR_insanolord]

Yeah, the TurboExpress handheld played the same games as the TG-16 console. That's why early in the 3DS' life they said the 3DS VC would include its games, before it included games from consoles, although that never actually happened.

[Stogi]

8 out 10 best selling games each year for the last five years have been multiplayer games. 8 out of 10.

There's a reason why Sony is so popular right now. They get it. It's all about user experience and that's what they focused on. Nothing makes a game more fun than sharing it with someone.

So unless combining the handheld and console makes it easier to communicate to other gamers, I don't see the point. Because it was never about the games. We'll play anything as long as there are people to share it with. Us, more refined, gamers will pick through the garbage to find a gem while the majority of people are playing flappy bird. Again, it was never about the games.

So what should Nintendo do? Well they struck gold with the Wii because people had a blast experiencing something together in the same room. I suggest they go that route again. Either that or the exact opposite. I'm not sure and don't really care.

[Shaymin]

Yeah, the TurboExpress handheld played the same games as the TG-16 console. That's why early in the 3DS' life they said the 3DS VC would include its games, before it included games from consoles, although that never actually happened outside of Japan.

Mild fix there.

[Louieturkey]

Yeah, the TurboExpress handheld played the same games as the TG-16 console. That's why early in the 3DS' life they said the 3DS VC would include its games, before it included games from consoles, although that never actually happened outside of Japan.

Mild fix there.

It's easier to find your mild fix if you bold the part you fixed.

[Khushrenada]

8 out 10 best selling games each year for the last five years have been multiplayer games. 8 out of 10.

That's interesting. I never thought about that. I'm such a single player gamer these days. Even Smash Bros. I play as a single player experience. The only multiplayer gaming I've done in the past 3 years would be some Fortune Street, Mario Party's and Animal Crossing: New Leaf and the latter I have a hard time classifying as multiplayer due to the fact that I don't really "play" much with other users so much as make deals.

[Phil]

I think for the next console Nintendo needs to realize it's a global company and stop catering to just Japan for the most part. Japan as a console market has already moved towards mobile and handheld gaming with the latter being usurped by the former more and more as time goes on. The Wii brand name is damaged goods, and Nintendo will be better suited getting away from the name with their next console. In addition to that, Nintendo cannot just try catering to either the core or the casual gamer. The company needs both to succeed, and halfhearted attempts to bring in both will not do Nintendo well.

[broodwars]

I think for the next console Nintendo needs to realize it's a global company and stop catering to just Japan for the most part. Japan as a console market has already moved towards mobile and handheld gaming with the latter being usurped by the former more and more as time goes on. The Wii brand name is damaged goods, and Nintendo will be better suited getting away from the name with their next console. In addition to that, Nintendo cannot just try catering to either the core or the casual gamer. The company needs both to succeed, and halfhearted attempts to bring in both will not do Nintendo well.

I would argue that the Wii U WAS their attempt to cater to both the casual and core gamer. The problem they have is that the casuals left them a long time ago, and there weren't enough new core-oriented titles to convince the core audience that Nintendo had changed (at least early on). So we ended up with a console that doesn't really cater to either audience, that half-hearted end result you spoke of. Meanwhile, Sony catered hard to the core gamer, but designed the big hook of their console around the sharing experience that hooked a wider audience. Nintendo would need something of that nature, along with evidence of continual and quality 1st and 3rd party software.

[Ian Sane]

Part of me thinks that if you're seen as targeting casuals then you're labelled as casual by core gamers.  That may not be accurate but that's how it is seen.  For years Nintendo had a problem where they made enough games for kids they got labelled as kiddy even if there were other games available.  Sony's console have typically seemed very core-gamer focused but they've always had kids games and casual games as well and usually don't have trouble selling to those audiences.  A lot of it seems to be what gets the greater focus in the marketing.

Nintendo doesn't have enough resources to effectively target all audiences by themselves.  No company really does and Nintendo is probably the most qualified to try in the first place.  They need third parties to help fill out their lineup.  It keeps coming back to that.  With Nintendo I feel like I'm dealing with a baseball team that has had lousy pitching for years and years and the team never contends and keeps making no effort to improve their pitching.  "I don't understand why we had a losing record again.  We added a great first baseman last year."  Nintendo is missing a key element to having a successful console.  They somehow by the miracles of miracles found success last gen despite missing this element but they can never assume that their consoles will succeed without it.

Make a console that third parties will actually support (or at least don't make one that they technically CAN'T support with multi-platform development) and now they will have enough of a lineup to appeal to both audiences.

[Evan_B]

Third parties will definitely flesh out their library but I don't want third party games that are garbage. Ubisoft slaughtered Watch Dogs profitability on Wii U because they chose to not release it after it got mediocre reviews.

Say what you will, but the Wii at least had a decent third party presence. Most of that third party support was garbage, but since everyone developed for it we got games like Dead Space Extraction, No More Heroes, and Madworld.

[NWR_insanolord]

The GameCube got most multiplatform games of its era and it was still a flop. Third party support's nice to have, but it doesn't necessarily mean that much.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

The Turbo Express was not the only handheld that could play console games, Nomad and Game Gear had that capability also. Nomad it was built in, Game Gear required an adapter but it was still a feature. I had a Nomad and was excited that it might extend the life of Genesis by turning the focus on handheld games it could live on, something that Nintendo managed to prove was doable with GBA but once again Sega sucked it up.

Why does everyone forget Game Cube was unique because it didn't play DVD at a time when DVD was a hot new thing and the other two did. Man I remember all the time that kept coming up in conversations about Game Cube it was a major thing the other two did GC didn't do so NO it was NOT on par with the other two it was weaker even if marginally weaker it wasn't a major issue to everyone but it sure as hell was an issue so don't bring up GC had no reason to not have 3rd party support when it really did, by having lower sales and gimping the hardware even a little did give developers and excuse NOT to make games for it, or to make scaled down ports which THEY DID by the way and people complained about it then. Also it's lack of online was a major issue that often gets ignored but was often a topic of much contention during the time it was out. Countless games were either left off the console or missing key features because the online was non-existent so don't act like Game Cube was somehow a special case where Nintendo DID have hardware on par with its competition and failed because that is a flat out lie. It was as gimped as every other hardware its just people over look that because they I don't know just forget or didn't care or think that it wasn't a big deal when it was.

[Spak-Spang]

I think the best option for Nintendo is to make an OS and program language that can easily be used for both systems.

This would allow Nintendo to link games where it makes sense  and not where it doesn't make sense.

For example:

Virtual Console could be linked to one account and play games on both systems with one purchase.  This makes sense.

Some games Like New Super Mario Games, and Fire Emblem games could exist with one purchase on both systems and be slightly scaled down on the portable.

However, some games could be console and portable exclusive.  For example a new Zelda pushing the hardware limits could be only available on the console system, and a portable Pokemon only available on the home system...but perhaps they could design a mode for both that allows you to enjoy the game in a special way if you have both systems. 

I don't think Nintendo wants to both consoles the same...and not get the sales from both.  However, Nintendo wants to make development of games cheaper on both systems, and create an infrastructure where they have the most freedom possible to release games on their systems.

[BranDonk Kong]

I think the GameCube's biggest failure was the physical design and look of the console and controller. Pound for pound (well, aside from some shaders) it was every bit as powerful as the Xbox - but it was a purple box (for a while at least), and the controller, while actually being one of the best controllers on any console ever, period, just screamed "my first game console" when you looked at it. There was no reason to limit it to 1.5GB for game storage either, even if it didn't play DVD movies (natively).

If the GameCube launched in black only, and later added other colors (like the N64), and the controller didn't have kidney bean shaped buttons, I venture to say it would have been much more successful. It just looked like a kids console, and that reputation stuck.

[Adrock]

Besides the handle (which at least served a purpose), Gamecube is my favorite console design. But yeah, launching with indigo, particularly as the marketed color, was a big mistake.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

design flaws were a huge factor but some people still act like it was not gimped at all which it was, even as you said if it didn't play back DVD movies, being 1.5 gig disk did set it back even if just in perception. All those things added up to a terrible image and nobody wanted to be seen making games for it let alone playing it. I loved it but every time I went into a game store to ask about a game that was no yet confirmed for Game Cube I was always treated with bullshit smirks about why not just get a PS2 or an Xbox.

The worst part of Game Cube was as great as it was as a console and as much better library it had than N64, its 1st party games were so divisive for the first time ever you had the faithful actually hating not only Zelda but also Mario. It was the only Nintendo console I can think of were people actually expressed hatred for the main line Mario and Zelda game as well as the mainline Star Fox and other games, it was so divisive like that. I think Game Cube had some great games but the games I liked are games others hated and it went the other way too.

Part of it was compounded by the kiddie image, it was so polarizing that this very site, well Planet GameCube, had a filter that didn't let you type the word kiddie in any shape because people were fed up with it. Take for example someone who already felt the judgmental eyes of their peers looking down on them for purchasing a purple lunchbox that looked like a toy and played the most cartoony Zelda and arguably the most cartooney Mario game ever made. Combine that with the annoying FLUDD, the childish sounding voice of Luigi in Luigi's Mansion and the success of Super Monkey Ball if you already had doubts about the consoles image you most likely ignored many of the better games in favor or proving to yourself and others it was a serious console, which is why Melee and Prime sold so well and were more universally praised by a group that typically hates both fighting games and FPS games leading to many making the claim Melee was not a fighting game and prime was an FPA instead of an FPS, which caused heated debates right here in fact which I distinctly remember being a part of.


With Wii it was a little easier because Mii's were universally praised despite their simplistic design but someone who despised the kiddie label of Game Cube would have gone into Wii already fighting that image up front. During the NES days coming off as a toy worked because retailers were tired of video games after the crash and they were desperate. Game Cube reeked of them trying to recapture that image and embracing it which they continued right on into Wii.

It could be argued their console design has always been more "Tonka" compared to their competition even SNES looked like it was made out of Lego blocks. N64 was probably the most "stylish" of their consoles and that was held back by the carts and Pikachu edition.

Wii U is oddly enough their most modern looking console and the only one to actually look like a true multimedia gaming device instead of just another toy that plays Nintendo games. Sitting next to my PS4 Wii U looks like it  belongs, Wii looked like it was so out of place compared to PS3 and Game Cube and N64 both looked like garbage compared to their counterparts, even Genesis had a more sophisticated look that was praised among gaming press at the time for being stylish, both models.

[NWR_insanolord]

The disc size was really the only thing holding the GameCube back from a technical perspective, but it definitely hurt. I'm pretty sure that was the biggest thing holding back the third party games the system didn't get that the other two did. Fitting GTA into 1.5 GB would have been tough.

[Ian Sane]

The GameCube got most multiplatform games of its era and it was still a flop. Third party support's nice to have, but it doesn't necessarily mean that much.

But Nintendo is probably fucked without it.  It isn't going to turn things around by itself but things will never turn around without it.  As long as the third party support is still a problem Nintendo is shooting themselves in the foot every generation.

As for the Gamecube, to me it was death by a thousand cuts.  If you took a bullet point list of the three consoles that gen the Cube finished last in most categories and was probably not number one in any of them (well I guess they were number one on wireless controllers).  During a time where Nintendo had to show that the N64's problems were a fluke thing they showed up with a very lazy effort.

The Cube had:
- smaller discs
- no dvd support
- looked like a purple lunchbox during a time when Nintendo was routinely accused of being kiddy
- effectively no online gaming
- an irregular control layout that did not work for certain games, particularly fighting games
- memory cards at launch that were 1/16 the size of the PS2 cards but cost the same amount of money
- a "hits" discounted line that was $30 when everyone else had $20

Those last couple of bullet points are minor but then I think none of these things are a dealbreaker by themselves but combined it all looks pretty bad.  And every one of these things was completely avoidable.  It was like Nintendo was giving people a reason to write them off.

This is also the console that launched with beat-it-in-a-weekend Luigi's Mansion the same week the Xbox launched with Halo.  And they lost Rare, which was their top asset on the N64, a year after the system launched.  And they turned Zelda, which had undoubtedly the biggest amount of hype of all the titles pre-launch, into a cartoon during the peak of "Nintendo is kiddy".  The timing of all of that was terrible.  The Cube needed to be the "show me" console where Nintendo won everyone back and instead they found a way to at the very least do everything a little bit poorly.  For me it the big reveal where I discovered how little self-awareness Nintendo has.  I think they thought they could cut all these corners because they're FUCKIN' NINTENDO and everyone will just line up and buy their **** no matter what!  They seemed very unaware of what sort of image the N64 had given them.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

I actually agree with most of what you said Ian, but I disagree that just being Nintendo wasn't enough, I still have the EGM and Game Informer magazines that cover the pre-launch and they were so sure Game Cube would win they declared it a forgone fact. I think what hurt Game Cube more than anything were news reports it was selling so badly they had to stop manufacturing to clear inventory and then slashed the price, that sort of bad press killed any hopes it had going forward, all the other things they mostly could have overcome if they had done more, they could have overcome the wonky controller just like they did with Wii by using it effectively, they failed to do that even their  best games would have been better using a normal controller. They could have easily made Double Dash and all those Mario Sports games online capable at the very least and that alone would have put them on the map and sold enough of those LAN units to get 3rd parties to at least consider Online on GC, they didn't need to do much more than that and yet they blew it. Despite blowing it they went out of their way to BEG 3rd parties to work for them handing out their characters to everybody in exchange for exclusive deals they struggled but they FOUGHT for Game Cube, Wii and Wii U they haven't fought one bit.

[Luigi Dude]

I'm surprised no ones mentioned the terrible marketing campaign for the Gamecube with many of their games Nintendo gave which is another reason the system didn't do as well.  Seriously, the system was already struggling by Summer 2002 and they cut the price and rushed Mario Sunshine out so it could be a summer release and how do they advertise it?

Who in the **** thought this ad was a good idea.  Yeah Mario Sunshine would already end up being pretty controversial anyway because of certain game design choices anyway, but this ad did no favor what so ever and turned many off before they'd even play the damn game.  After the Gamecube price cut this was suppose to be the game that would help turn things around since it's Mario for **** sake and at this time it had been 6 years since Mario 64 was last released.  They needed to bring their A game in marketing this title and instead they advertise it like some shovelware trash.

It's almost like during the Gamecube era Nintendo was intentionally trying to make sure people didn't buy their games because many of the ads were just downright awful and made many of the games looks very unappealing to anyone that wasn't already one of the Nintendo faithful.

[broodwars]

It's almost like during the Gamecube era Nintendo was intentionally trying to make sure people didn't buy their games because many of the ads were just downright awful and made many of the games looks very unappealing to anyone that wasn't already one of the Nintendo faithful.

Yeah, the Mario Sunshine commercial was as godawful as the game it was advertising, but we still got some good commercials during the GameCube era, such as this Metroid Prime live action trailer:

and this Eternal Darkness trailer (a short version of a much longer overall trailer):

Both Western-developed games. Go figure.

[Ian Sane]

The Mario Sunshine ad was so terrible that they quickly ditched it and replaced it with a different one.  Think about that.  How often has any videogame company replaced an ad, not because of any controversial content, but simply because the ad just plain sucks?  And this is the game that supposed to be the big killer app.  They couldn't pick a worse time to **** the bed with a lousy ad.

Also relating to the marketing, that was the last gen where videogame mags mattered even a little bit.  PlayStation and Xbox each had official magazines published by an independent company that offered demos.  Nintendo in comparison had the inhouse Nintendo Power, which was always seen as a kids' mag, and Nintendo was fiercely anti-demo.  Again that's little stuff but it was just something else where Nintendo was unnecessarily inferior to their competition.

The Cube era had some amazing games but it was really frustrating as a fan.  It was like Nintendo had a strong team on paper but kept losing key games by scoring on themselves.

[BranDonk Kong]

I think the SMS ad was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, or purposely bad, but it was just borderline enough that it just seemed like a horrible commercial and stupid game to most people. Having said that, FLUDD should not have played such a major role in the game.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

I think the SMS ad was meant to be tongue-in-cheek, or purposely bad, but it was just borderline enough that it just seemed like a horrible commercial and stupid game to most people. Having said that, FLUDD should not have played such a major role in the game.

My biggest complains were always the excessively long intro you can't skip which is still annoying as hell, and FLUDD being mandatory instead of a new "power up" that would be optional but helpful. That and every time I get to the first non-FLUDD level I can't beat it and get frustrated and quite.