Topic: The Wii U as a stepping stone.

[Evan_B]

So I hate to discuss the next Nintendo console as much as the next guy, however I was reading a "handheld mockup" thread and came across an interesting picture and idea for a console called the uDS. It was a handheld that had similar ergonomics as the 3DS with the addition of a second circle pad. However, the top screen was detachable and could continue to stream gameplay with the bottom half of the clamshell operating as a controller. The kick was an iHome like home console that could connect to a tv or also operate as a sound amplifier/hard drive/disc drive for the console, retaining backwards compatibility for the Wii U. I believe the console used cartridges.

While it initially felt like the console was very focused on backwards compatibility, I've really warmed up to the idea and I see it as a natural and logical evolution of the Wii U concept. Of course, this is Nintendo we're talking about, so logic isn't a word that goes hand and hand with their hardware development. I see this as a good move for a number of reasons:

-If the uDS used cartridges for the controller and a disk drive for the iHome, it would combine the potential for customers to start their purchase off with a huge catalogue already.
-Unify game development to one console. The benefits are obvious.
-Finally there would be no excuse (and frustration) for not having specific VC titles on a certain system. This furthers the potential for that service.
-Continues the branding for both their services- yes, we're dropping "Wii" because it was a one-trick pony.

Some of you might be wondering what a system like this would cost. We have already seen Nintendo experiment with streaming in the past and the reason the Wii U was initially at its price point was because of the costs of the controller. However, if we split the handheld and the core disk-based iHome into two separate purchases, it has reduced pricing potential, and a boxed set would really not end up much more expensive that current gen offerings.

What say you?

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

I have heard similar ideas thrown out there before. I think they would be best to go a gaming tablet route with a full powered tablet that runs their Wii U OS and has physical buttons on the side like the GamePad does.

No matter what they do I want it to be a single machine that gets their full attention that can be used both as a portable for that crowd and a console that can be connected to a TV for those of us who don't want a portable.


I think what you are describing sounds far too complicated not just for Nintendo to engineer but for their typical consumer to fully appreciate. I agree they need some way to combine the two units into one, either having  a single unit that can output to a TV and be low cost enough to develop for that if sales are high enough they will get support that is tailored to that demographic. In order for it to work they have to fully commit to bowing out of the arms race which it does appear they are willing to do.

[Nile Boogie Returns]

Now I'm thinking an Nvidea Shield with a dock for the TV while still having a dedicated handheld akin to a 4DS or Gameboy Next

[Evan_B]

I was just thinking that the concept is sound from a business standpoint, especially for Nintendo, whose handhelds sell better than their home consoles. Make the console a handheld.

I was thinking about how Nintendo has given the Wii U the ability to connect to the 3DS to play Smash Bros., which is just ridiculous to me because you still have to own Smash 3DS. This would be so much easier if everyone's handheld also functioned as a controller because then you would have a reason to carry it around to your friend's house. There's great ideas like Streetpass and Mii Plaza that unfortunately only work on 3DS, but imagine if you could take that data to your home console as well.

Both the Wii U and 3DS have good ideas but combining them, in my opinion, would be the best case scenario for Nintendo. If they put all the processing power on the handheld side and simply make the iHome, or uHome, a disk drive/streaming hub, they could still market it as a substantial addition and profit off of it being a much simpler device. If you consider MicroSD support that the New 3DS is finally taking advantage of, the uHome could even act as a hub for the titles you don't want to be lugging around on the handheld all the time, freeing up space for downloads on the go or just for the the games you're playing at the time.

Jeez, now I'm just setting myself up for disappointment if they don't make something like this.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I've detailed out some ideas for just this kind of "Hybrid" system somewhere in these forums.

I think it would be a great idea, personally, but knowing that Nintendo can't ever seem to go far enough with an idea, for reasons..... I don't hold out much hope.

[Mop it up]

I don't think we'll see something like this as the next system, but we might in the future. I welcome the hybrid idea though, sounds good to me.

I think the successors to the Wii U and 3DS will still be separate systems, but be more connected with one another than those systems currently are. We'll probably start seeing some things like unified accounts and cross-buy on these systems. I think they'll drop the Wii name, but keep the DS name somehow, and probably find a new gimmick to base each system around.

We might see the hybrid idea after this next generation though.

[Evan_B]

I don't know. The console space has become so obsolete with PCs outpacing them and performing better. At some point, you have to wonder how profitable it is to design a weak PC for gaming exclusively and throw it on the market.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

Yeah but is that really new? Commodore and Amiga both made big sales being gaming PC's back in their day. I don't think there will ever be a time where dedicated gaming platforms become obsolete I think the market will always adapt to allow for those types of devices. PC's have been superior to gaming consoles in every way since the very start that hasn't stopped different markets from co-existing all this time. The only market that basically did become obsolete was the Arcade and that hasn't disappeared entirely either.


I don't see any new comer challenging the big three though anytime soon, this is the longest the video game industry has supported three consoles from the same companies ever. Also all three have multiple platforms on the market and that hasn't stopped any of them from trying new things.

[BlackNMild2k1]

I don't know. The console space has become so obsolete with PCs outpacing them and performing better. At some point, you have to wonder how profitable it is to design a weak PC for gaming exclusively and throw it on the market.

This has been said EVERY generation since I've been on the internet. Dedicated gaming systems are still here, and I see no reason for them to go away just yet.

[pokepal148]

Oh dear, tis is one of those Nintendo hybrid console posts isn't it...

Doggone it the Nintendo 1DS website is dead, guess I'll have to dig through the web archive for that joke (not worth it)

[Evan_B]

Nintendo has nothing to lose in combining their efforts, however. The way they market the system would obviously be very important, but the most appealing aspect would definitely be "it's a handheld and a console". Vita TV didn't work because it's a shameless and half-baked attempt at the idea that offers no benefit over a PS4, Vita, or even a PS3.

[broodwars]

Consoles will always have a place in one form or another compared to PCs so long as they continue to offer 2 key features:

1. Easy setup without having to worry about hardware or software compatibility.
2. Not having to interact with PC gamers.

I do think a hybrid console/handheld device is inevitable at this point, especially when Nintendo can't manage to support 2 devices at once anymore.

[Louieturkey]

Nintendo has nothing to lose in combining their efforts, however. The way they market the system would obviously be very important, but the most appealing aspect would definitely be "it's a handheld and a console". Vita TV didn't work because it's a shameless and half-baked attempt at the idea that offers no benefit over a PS4, Vita, or even a PS3.

They do lose something.  They lose the ability to sell 2 systems.

[Evan_B]

That hasn't really been going well for them.

And as I said, you could sell the uHome separately if you wanted to.

[Luigi Dude]

That hasn't really been going well for them.

Only it has since they're profiting off both systems.  This is why we're never getting a Nintendo hybrid console because it would result in Nintendo making less profit.  It's not like there's a different audience for Nintendo handhelds and home consoles, most of the people who own a Wii U also own a 3DS. 

Even with the Wii U's poor hardware sales, they're still selling millions of extra software they couldn't if the just had one console.  Just look at Smash Bros, currently over 6 million on the 3DS and 3 million on the Wii U.  Majority of the people who own the Wii U version bought the 3DS version months earlier.  If they had one system they would have lost millions in sales since they couldn't have released one game designed on shorter handheld experience with another designed around the bigger console experience.


That has been the whole point of Nintendo home consoles since the beginning.  Many of their franchises get a smaller handheld game that's shorter and more casual friendly while the home console is the bigger more hardcore experience.  This way Nintendo can sell 2 similar games to the same audience on 2 different consoles because each system and it's games fulfill a different need to that audience.  A hybrid destroys the ability to do that which results in less sales, which is why it wont happen.

[Ian Sane]

Luigi Dude has Nintendo's logic dead on.  Nintendo won't do the hybrid for that reason.  But I think that rationale will be Nintendo's eventual downfall.  They live too much in the present, making decisions that will affect the next five years because they're worried about the profits for this year.  If something isn't profitable in 2015 they won't do it, even if it will be profitable by 2017.  This is the company that blew off both online gaming and HDTV support because it didn't seem profitable six months into the future and they're STILL behind the rest of the industry on both concepts years later.

I don't care if the Wii U is making a profit, it is destroying Nintendo's marketability.  As their audience gets smaller and smaller it will eventually cease to earn them a profit.  And with their overly optimistic sales projections that they are failing to meet it's clear that they want to sell more systems and have a larger userbase.  Selling two games on two platforms to an increasingly shrinking Nintendo userbase is small potatoes.  A hybrid could attract a larger audience.  Hell, if done right I think it could make Sony and MS look like outdated dinosaurs.  So instead of SSB selling 9 million across two platforms it sells 15 million over one.  Or even if it doesn't if the hybrid's userbase exceeds the combination of the 3DS and Wii U then every game has a higher sales potential.

[Mop it up]

I'm not sure if the technology is affordable enough yet to create a good hybrid system that can be priced competitively and attractively, and that's why I don't think it will be tried next generation. Maybe the one after that, depending on when it is.

Though, I also get the feeling that Nintendo enjoy making console games, and are disappointed that the console market has declined so much in Japan. So I think they still want to try at least one more console after the Wii U and see if they can spark interest back up.

[Louieturkey]

Mop it up has it about right.  Nintendo wants to get Japan to buy consoles like they did during the SNES to PS2 eras.  I really think they will try again to appeal directly to Japan on their next home console, but it won't be a hybrid because they won't want to cannibalize their handheld market there.  They go safe with handheld and go big on the home console this next gen.   

[Ian Sane]

I think aiming for Japan to buy consoles again is futile.  Part of what the reason to make a hybrid is because Japan likes handhelds and America likes consoles so the hybrid is a model that could please both markets.  Nintendo having tunnel-vision towards Japan at the expense of the much larger North American market is dumb.

[broodwars]

Nintendo having tunnel-vision towards Japan at the expense of the much larger North American market is dumb.

It's also one of the reasons the Wii U is a failure: they designed that thing for the Japanese market & with Japanese 3rd parties (who are right now at least 5 years behind the rest of the world in terms of console game development) in mind...in an era where Japan is a footnote in the console market & Western 3rd parties dominate the industry.

IF Nintendo makes another console, it needs to be designed for the West, which is the market for console experiences. Japan is iOS, handheld, & PC now.

[Luigi Dude]

Even if Nintendo's next home console is a failure, they'll still keep trying since having a successful home and handheld console is still a better outcome to them then one hybrid.  People have to remember Nintendo is financially still a huge company.  The Wii and DS made them more money then ever before, and they still had billions in the bank before that.  They can afford to keep making home consoles since if one becomes a success, it'll easily offset any losses they end up taking from the failures. 

Plus after the 3DS and Wii U, I can guarantee the next home and handheld will be designed in a way that they're very profitable off the hardware from the start and even something selling Wii U numbers will have minimal losses.  They will not give up home consoles since it's still better to have 2 markets and they can easily afford to still pursue it.

[Caterkiller]

While I am certain there won't just be one device it is sounding more and more like there will be one(not sure if this is the right term) operating system under which all games are developed.

So basically Iwata has been talking about handheld and homeconsole games sharing the same development tools and what not. To me it means we'll get a deal something like a Mac and an IPad. It's the same operating system, they can be linked by accounts and so on. When Mario 3D Galaxy comes out it will be available for both with the hand held scaled down a bit. Of course when Not So New Super Mario Bros 3 comes out it will be the exact same game on both.

Every game would basically support both platforms for the most part and would solve several problems at once I believe. 1 Mario Kart and 1 2D Mario per generation. Without an opposite handheld/console version to be made Nintendo is free to try other things. So that alone right there potentially takes care of super long drouts and we don't get franchise fatigue like when NSMB U came out(not debating the quality of that great game).

Then you have Japanese developers who seem to enjoy supporting handhelds and instantly you have a Nintendo home console with Japenese 3rd party support.

The biggest issue I suppose is the pwower issue for the handheld. Would that hold back the home console? How does the Vita do it with some PS4 games?

[broodwars]

Would that hold back the home console? How does the Vita do it with some PS4 games?

The short answer is that the Vita versions are scaled-down ports. Depending on how graphically intensive the game was in the first place, this is either not noticeable at all (most indie games) or downright embarrassing (Resogun looks like a PSP game in the Vita version). Given how Nintendo keeps trying to hold handheld games back to allow Japanese developers to never improve, I'd imagine their next handheld will be about on par with the Vita. That would make PS3-caliber games/ports easy. I can't see them going much further than that if they make a dedicated handheld.

[Ian Sane]

I think the OS model would ruin the business model Luigi Dude is talking about.  If the handheld and console libraries become too similar why would I bother with both?  It's been easier to sell me both systems and games on both systems because they've been unique.  I own Sony consoles but have never owned a Sony handheld because it seems pointless to me.  I prefer consoles and the Sony handhelds don't seem to offer anything truly different so I don't bother buying them.  But Nintendo has always kept me buying handhelds simply because they have enough unique games.  If they're too similar I'll just pick one or the other.

I think the market wants a hybrid.  The idea of different formats seems arbitrary.  You want to be able to buy the game once and play it both on your TV at home and on your handheld device on the go.  I figure someone will come up with the hybrid concept to cater to that consumer want and whoever does it successfully first will effective kill the separate console/handheld model overnight.  Nintendo can be the company that implements it or the company left scrambling after someone else does it first.  I think this one OS concept will make the need for a hybrid more obvious.  People will notice that it's all the same games so why are they buying two systems and buying the same game twice?

[Caterkiller]

I think the OS model would ruin the business model Luigi Dude is talking about.  If the handheld and console libraries become too similar why would I bother with both?  It's been easier to sell me both systems and games on both systems because they've been unique.  I own Sony consoles but have never owned a Sony handheld because it seems pointless to me.  I prefer consoles and the Sony handhelds don't seem to offer anything truly different so I don't bother buying them.  But Nintendo has always kept me buying handhelds simply because they have enough unique games.  If they're too similar I'll just pick one or the other.

Well thats the thing, things are different now and it seems like barely anyone is bothering with both anymore.  3D Mario gets developed and the slightly nicer version runs on the home console and the slightly less anti aliasing version runs on the hand held but the game as a whole sells well despite the form factor being used. Now there is no need for both a 3D Land and 3D World which frees up time and resources for something brand new. The time and money that would have went into that 2nd 3D Mario now goes into something else that could potentially earn just as much money for them. It's not as if something potentially profitable won't be made in the absence of a 2nd version.

I look at it as a complete win win. Sure some might be disappointed that we only get one set of Mario Kart tracks in a single generation but with the way Nintendo does DLC now a'days that is just a non-issue all together. There is a good chance franchises don't get over used, more new creations come out of all of it and droughts become less of an issue.

I think the steadier flow of software from Nintendo that would simultaneously keep both systems afloat would outweigh not being able to sell 2 separate versions of the same franchise.

Of course certain games will be tailored more for the home console and vice versa but at this point what does that mean anymore with the likes of Smash Bros, Star Fox 64, OoT, MM, DKC Returns, Xenoblade or Animal Crossing? What once was only able to be done on home consoles is done very well as a handheld. Same with 3D World and Land, I love both games but neither feel like they are inherently a hand held or home console title.