Author Topic: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.  (Read 18841 times)

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Offline Phil

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2015, 10:27:39 AM »
Without Rare, the N64 wouldn't be so loved by me. My favorite games comes from Rare: Diddy Kong Racing (best kart racer EVER!), Perfect Dark (my favorite FPS), Banjo-Kazooie (my favorite collect-a-thon platformer), Banjo-Tooie, GoldenEye 007, Jet Force Gemini, among many others.


The wait between games was so very long with the N64, which puts it over the NES but below everything else.
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Offline Nile Boogie Returns

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2015, 11:09:50 AM »
*If this list included handhelds then the 3DS would be at the top of this list.
Do you really think the 3DS is that good? I mean, I love the hell out of mine, but I think the DS had a better library.




Yes I do. My gaming taste have changed over the years so this may be a reflection of my evolving pallet. The DS' library is outstanding and I have countless games to prove it but if I could only pick 1 system for the rest of my life it would be the 3DS.


Check this out
http://67.227.255.239/forum/showthread.php?t=958813 (neogaf)


It helps that the BC with the DS is perfect but segregated titles goes to the 3DS

Offline Phil

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2015, 11:23:06 AM »
I think by the end of the 3DS's life, it will have a better library than DS, and that's thanks to the eShop in addition to the retail titles on it.
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Offline Evan_B

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2015, 01:50:23 PM »
Like I said, I love my 3Ds, but it's lacking in a ton of areas. Most of the titles in that thread you posted are the -only- titles. There's nothing else. Gone are the metroidvanias, the obscure RPGs, the random title that delivers. Those that are there exist in such small number compared to the DS. While I can truthfully say some of my favorite games in recent memory have been played on my 3DS, I am constantly eying a used DS title here and there, and when I do take the plunge I am always satisfied. I've had quite a few bitter experiences on the 3DS and I just don't feel that way with the DS.

2013 was an amazing year for the 3DS but it feels like that was the best year it's going to have. There's not much to get excited about in the future of the console.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2015, 02:28:23 PM »
I'm not counting VC releases as part of the Wii unless that was it's first way to play the game in your region (ie: in North America you need to own a Wii to play Sin & Punishment).  Backwards compatibility doesn't count either.  You buy a console for the new games it provides.  I'm also doing this somewhat in the context of when the system was current.  I rarely play N64 now because the games look so dated but historically it had some very impressive games.  I'm not including the Wii U because I don't own one and because its story is still being written.

SNES - My favourite console.  It has the best Zelda, Metroid, Mario, Mega Man, Contra and Final Fantasy.  2D gaming perfected.  So what's better?  2D or 3D?  Well in the context of Nintendo it doesn't matter.  Nintendo had well balanced consoles with strong third party support in the 2D era but not in 3D.  To me that tips the scales.

NES - Nintendo's peak in regards to third party support.  Many of Nintendo's more popular series debuted here.  Unfortunately the games are a lot rougher around the edges than their SNES counterparts and outright bullshit difficulty is common.  It's just not as enjoyable as the SNES.  But I wouldn't fault someone for making it number one.  It was so popular that videogames were called "playing Nintendo" at the time.

N64 - This one was pretty disappointing because Nintendo turned off third parties by going with cartridges.  So you pretty much were going just on first party releases but the first party games almost always were amazing.  Nintendo adapted to the switch to 3D better than anyone with an outright 100% success record.  I consider this Nintendo's peak as a game developer.  They had to support the system themselves and they actually did a pretty good job.  Practically every first party release was GOTY stuff.  While I think their SNES highs were higher, they were more consistently great during this time.  You waited around for a new game but it was always worth it.  Unfortunately for all the creativity and innovation those N64 games showed, they're pretty dated and hard to look at now.

Gamecube - In theory this seems like it should top the N64.  It had better third party support and the first party titles aren't as dated.  But Nintendo was a little off this gen.  Zelda and Mario are both kind of meh efforts for example.  I found that many ideas like FLUDD, the cel-shaded Wind Waker graphics and the double karts in Mario Kart felt like Nintendo had burned out their best ideas on the N64 but felt they had to make their games stand out so they introduced these sort of forced ideas that never gelled right.  Metroid Prime however is a big exception.  It's still a great system, just lacking the variety of the 2D systems and the consistent first party output of the N64.

Wii - The dud.  The one console here that I consider a bad product.  Dumbed down game design, a mountain of shovelware from third parties and horrible controls shoehorned into damn near every game.  For me the Wii was about fighting the **** controls to get to the good game hidden inside.  Even truly great games like the Mario Galaxy games still had annoying waggle elements and both had borderline unplayable levels involving riding an animal and steering with motion controls.  And while Nintendo seemed to be forcing themselves to be innovative on the Cube, they largely gave up here and routinely released generic cookie-cutter sequels where mapping a button press to a remote shake was their idea of "innovation".  There are some great games that use the CC and the VC was great for getting some old titles localized for the first time so the console isn't completely worthless.  Still this system was so unsatisfying to own that I actually bought a competing console midway through the generation.

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2015, 05:36:43 PM »
I don't feel the 3DS lives up to the DS, but it's also the freakin' DS. That's an incredible legacy to have to live up to, with crazy sales and a massive library. Even just comparing the first four years of each, I feel the DS wins it out. But the 3DS is still a good system and definitely worth having.

Offline Nile Boogie Returns

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2015, 09:23:46 PM »
Like I said, I love my 3Ds, but it's lacking in a ton of areas. Most of the titles in that thread you posted are the -only- titles. There's nothing else. Gone are the metroidvanias, the obscure RPGs, the random title that delivers. Those that are there exist in such small number compared to the DS. While I can truthfully say some of my favorite games in recent memory have been played on my 3DS, I am constantly eying a used DS title here and there, and when I do take the plunge I am always satisfied. I've had quite a few bitter experiences on the 3DS and I just don't feel that way with the DS.

2013 was an amazing year for the 3DS but it feels like that was the best year it's going to have. There's not much to get excited about in the future of the console.


Very interesting.  I'll admit to the Metroidvaina's being missing although that Steam Digger 3DS was pretty awesome.





Wii - The dud.  The one console here that I consider a bad product.  Dumbed down game design, a mountain of shovelware from third parties and horrible controls shoehorned into damn near every game.  For me the Wii was about fighting the **** controls to get to the good game hidden inside.  Even truly great games like the Mario Galaxy games still had annoying waggle elements and both had borderline unplayable levels involving riding an animal and steering with motion controls.  And while Nintendo seemed to be forcing themselves to be innovative on the Cube, they largely gave up here and routinely released generic cookie-cutter sequels where mapping a button press to a remote shake was their idea of "innovation".  There are some great games that use the CC and the VC was great for getting some old titles localized for the first time so the console isn't completely worthless.  Still this system was so unsatisfying to own that I actually bought a competing console midway through the generation.


I actually understand this and agree on some points. It wasn't a dud and there are plenty of gems in catalog you just have to dig a bit deeper

Offline MagicCow64

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2015, 01:01:22 AM »
Y'all are insane who are ranking the Wii super low. It's a treasure trove of excellent titles by itself, but also has a deep bench of well-worthwhile "7/10" games that actively experiment with the medium and even invent new genres. There hasn't been a library as rich and varied since the SNES. But no, gur, waggle, gur, clearly game inputs were completely perfected with the introduction of the analog stick. With touch-only phone games cannibalizing the industry, and much hope pumped into AR and VR "revolutions", you really think motion controls were a dead end? Only inasmuch as the increasingly niche "hardcore" video game environment refuses to become a true mass medium.

Offline Evan_B

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2015, 02:10:10 AM »
In terms of Nintendo handhelds I'd say the DS and 3DS take the top two spots, though the Game Boy Color still gives the 3DS a run for its money.
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Offline Evan_B

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2015, 02:12:00 AM »
There hasn't been a library as rich and varied since the SNES. But no, gur, waggle, gur, clearly game inputs were completely perfected with the introduction of the analog stick.
All I ever hear when it comes to Wii is the Rainfall Trio, GCN remakes, Mario titles, and the occasional third party gem. But outside of that, I can't think of anything else that enriches the system's library.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2015, 08:28:14 AM »
All I ever hear when it comes to Wii is the Rainfall Trio, GCN remakes, Mario titles, and the occasional third party gem. But outside of that, I can't think of anything else that enriches the system's library.


Depends on what kind of games you like, but that sounds like over simplification.


Roguelikes were a rare find until coming back into vogue recently. Wii offered several before any other console did.  2D gaming in general also saw a real resurgence on Wii (although the rise of digital distribution and indie development later brought a lot of 2D gaming to other consoles, it was not a priority there for a long time).


People bitch about motion controls - often with justification - but games like Zack and Wiki, Boom Blox, PGA Tour, Shaun White (with balance board) and other were fantastic.


Even better than motion controls was the ability to use the pointer as a cursor.


Dual analog controls might be the defacto FPS standard, but I've never gotten used to it or particularly enjoyed it - using a cursor to bring controls closer to PC standards is more accurate and (for me) more enjoyable.


Games like Trauma Center would not work nearly as well without a pointer, Dawn of Discovery also did a great job using it



I really enjoy arcade-style light gun shooters, and Wii was a renaissance for the genre. Ghost Squad, Dead Space, Resident Evil, House of the Dead and many many more.


Wii has a huge number of exclusives. A massive library that includes both improved remakes and original titles. First party games make up the cream of the crop, but there are dozens of great games available from third parties also. What exactly do you want from the Wii library?
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Offline Phil

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2015, 08:31:34 AM »
Can't agree with Zack & Wiki having good motion controls. The last few levels were impossible to do with any sort of regular accuracy, greatly detracting from the overall experience.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #37 on: February 11, 2015, 01:32:24 PM »
If we're ranking Nintendo consoles one of them has to be in last place.  Even if I wasn't so down on the Wii I could just as easily picked it as last anyway.

I find motion controls to a massive chore to play with so a console that revolves almost entirely around that concept didn't do it for me.  I don't know if videogame controls have been perfected yet but motion control wasn't a concept worthy of becoming standard.  We don't have to stick to one control scheme forever but we also should have to freedom to call out a new idea for being **** if we think it's ****.

I don't know what magical fairy land people that think the Wii of all consoles had decent third party support live in.  To me it felt like third parties were talking down to us like us Wii owners can't handle the "big kid" games and had to have simplified fluff with tacked on motion controls.  Third parties truly treated the Wii as if it was the casual console, suitable only for dumbed down bullshit, with a dishonest attitude of "these rubes will buy anything".

Offline ejamer

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #38 on: February 11, 2015, 02:27:43 PM »
Can't agree with Zack & Wiki having good motion controls. The last few levels were impossible to do with any sort of regular accuracy, greatly detracting from the overall experience.


This is a fair point - the penultimate level in particular had one item that was required but absolutely terrible to user. However, the overall experience was still a very good one for me, and motion controls enhanced the experience more often than they harmed it.


Ian Sane will never agree with my opinion because he loathes the Wii, but that's fine. Unlike him, I judge a console on all functionality - backwards compatibility and virtual console matter to me - and that gives Wii a significant boost in my rankings. Third party Wii support was a token effort in many cases, but an insane install base meant Wii saw support anyway. It had quite a few games worth playing, and more importantly offered games that were different experiences from the "big kid" games that other platforms got. For me, that difference was a much needed breath of fresh air compared to the stale designs dominating other consoles. Without Wii, I probably wouldn't have gotten back into gaming at all.


That said, Ian Sane doesn't need to be such a jerk about it.  You have freedom to call things as you see them, but when people say "I like this" and your response is "that's ****" that's an example of you failing to be reasonable or respectful.
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Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #39 on: February 11, 2015, 04:04:26 PM »
Since I never gave a full list, I will now.

1. Wii: A lot of people are shitting on it, but I don't think any other Nintendo console offers that kind of breadth, especially in my personal favorite genre, platformers. Also home to the best versions of games like Metroid Prime, Pikmin, and Resident Evil 4.

2. Wii U: Limited library, but some truly exceptional games. The epitome of the old Nintendo fan's adage of "quality over quantity."

3. Nintendo 64: Similar to the Wii U, but not quite up to its level in my opinion.

4. GameCube: Good variety, but doesn't quite hit the heights of the aforementioned systems, especially with its best games often being better elsewhere.

5. NES: Dated in a lot of ways, but some absolute classics.

6: SNES: Massively overrated.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #40 on: February 11, 2015, 05:20:35 PM »
That said, Ian Sane doesn't need to be such a jerk about it.  You have freedom to call things as you see them, but when people say "I like this" and your response is "that's ****" that's an example of you failing to be reasonable or respectful.

Sorry, I don't mean to be disrespectful.  I was actually responding more to "Y'all are insane who are ranking the Wii super low" from higher up.

Oh and J.P. is the guy who doesn't like Super Mario World, right?  So his low ranking of the SNES isn't surprising.

Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #41 on: February 11, 2015, 06:10:07 PM »
To me, ranking systems is an idea that has pretty much become extinct since the GameCube era. How does one rank systems nowadays? By their impact on the market? By sales? By other functionality? By controller? By color?

Most of the time, it is based on the library for that system. But does that mean one should include or exclude those other factors? Look how many people have to give different criteria as to how they are making their rankings. The more common or accepted method is probably the one Ian outlines by software library and by the elimination of previously released titles as mentioned here:

Quote
I'm not counting VC releases as part of the Wii unless that was it's first way to play the game in your region (ie: in North America you need to own a Wii to play Sin & Punishment).  Backwards compatibility doesn't count either.  You buy a console for the new games it provides.

Yet why is it so necessary to be strict? Why should it matter what was released when? Because then Wii or Wii U would be the best console? Great. That's how it should be. A newer console should be better than the last one.

In the past, console rankings made sense especially when there was so much software that was tied to one system. But in the past decade, so much of the software from the early generation systems has become more easily available or re-released on newer systems that it's rendered them more and more obsolete. I haven't turned on my NES in maybe 6 or 7 years. I haven't played my SNES in possibly 4 years and that's most likely the same with my N64. Part of that is because I've played most of the games I own for those systems pretty thoroughly. Part of it is because there are so many new games to play. However, being able to just play them all on one system or in a re-released form has also made a big difference in my not using them anymore.

In the past, when I could only play Super Metroid, Kirby Superstar, or Super Mario RPG: Legend of the Seven Stars on my SNES, then the system had a more concrete advantage when comparing it to a system like the GameCube. It's still just ranking games but because those games were tied to one system, it made the system important. But now that I can or could play those games on the Wii or Wii U, it erodes the whole idea of ranking consoles based on their software.

EarthBound was an SNES release but I'll be playing it on my Wii U and that is how I'll first experience it. (Besides briefly trying it on my PC from downloading a ROM of it.) Punch Out and Super Punch Out were both experienced on the Wii for me. So does that mean I should rank them on the Wii console side or that counts as points for the NES and SNES side? Does it matter? Ian mentions Sin and Punishment 64 as being a Wii Title since that was the first way North Americans could really experience it. So, is release date what really matters? Should it be?

If a person plays EarthBound for the first time on the Wii U, shouldn't it count as a Wii U title? If I play Super Mario World on the Wii U, isn't that Wii U software since it is on the system and I've chosen to play it with that console instead of my SNES? I used to buy older games for my SNES and N64 until the Wii came out. After it came out, if there were games for those systems I wanted still, I just got them off the Virtual Console. It didn't make sense for me to try and track down the old physical copies of these games at a higher cost when I could play the same thing at a cheaper cost and more convenient set-up. What happens when a game is re-made and re-released with improvements over the original? Does that make Wind Waker a GC title or a Wii U title?

When it comes to Nintendo consoles, as far as I'm concerned, the only ones you need to still own are the 64 because of the Rare software mainly, the GameCube because most of it's library is still tied to that system and the Wii U since you can play all Wii games on the Wii U and it has the Wii shop all tied into that system also. With the virtual console and game companies re-releasing software most other consoles are rather obsolete. For handhelds, maybe the GBA depending on how that VC grows on the Wii U (although an older DS could play those GBA games as well) and a 3DS.

It is sad to say since I loved my SNES for a decade until the GameCube finally won me over about 9 years ago. But nowadays, when I look at a systems software, I ask what can it give me that I can't get already. Bubsy 2 doesn't really cut it. I may encourage someone to try a bunch of SNES classics but I wouldn't really tell them to get an SNES since most of the games I'd recommend could be played on the Wii U. A ranking of consoles is really a ranking of where game design is/was at. As more and more games get re-released or remade and offered on more and more different consoles, trying to tie down software to a certain console or restrict where it "truly belongs to" seems to be an outdated method to praise or criticise a game console in an increasingly irrelevant and obsolete competition based solely on furthering an individual's opinions and agenda. In other words, business as usual at NWR!  ;)

It is something I find myself less and less concerned with the more time passes.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2015, 06:14:16 PM by Khushrenada »
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Offline Khushrenada

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #42 on: February 11, 2015, 06:19:53 PM »
Also, I don't know why everyone is trying to be so restrictive of excluding handheld's and their software from how they are ranking things. The original post ranks the consoles according to the access some had to handheld libraries which sort of further proves my statement that what matters about a console is how much software it can access or give access to and not just what new games it offered during its lifetime.
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Offline Ian Sane

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #43 on: February 11, 2015, 07:44:58 PM »
I decided to judge the consoles based on what new games they introduced because I have all my old systems and games.  So for me the Wii being backwards compatible with the Gamecube doesn't matter because I have a Gamecube.  I didn't buy a Wii to play my Gamecube games or to rebuy NES/SNES/N64 games I already owned.  I bought a Wii to experience the new games the Wii brought to the table.  If I bought a new console and the only titles worth owning were all old games that debuted on difference systems I would feel ripped off.  I'm also looking at from a historical perspective and in that context describing Earthbound as a Wii U title makes no sense.  It feels to me like including a greatest hits album as a band's best album.  That would be technically accurate but it destroys the conversation.  Imagine doing this with Playstations?  A backwards compatible PS3 is the best Playstation.  The end.

Now I would consider "what consoles are worth owning today" as a different discussion.  In that context the Wii U would rank pretty high because of both its VC and the Wii one.  Older consoles become less essential with each generation.  That's actually a good thing because ideally we shouldn't want old games to vanish over time and they won't if they're made available on newer platforms.  Or alternatively you could list what you consider the most essential games of all time and what the most efficient way to access them all using the least amount of system purchases is (of course if you included emulation then PC wins).

Offline Mop it up

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #44 on: February 11, 2015, 08:24:05 PM »
Yeah, I just rank the game libraries of systems when these questions pop up because that's a lot easier than trying to establish other sorts of criteria.

That said, Ian Sane doesn't need to be such a jerk about it. You have freedom to call things as you see them, but when people say "I like this" and your response is "that's ****" that's an example of you failing to be reasonable or respectful.
Is this your first time meeting Ian Sane? Being condescending towards things he doesn't like and the people who like things he doesn't like is pretty much his MO, though I'm not always sure if he realises he's doing it.

Offline Nile Boogie Returns

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2015, 10:48:15 PM »

6: SNES: Massively overrated.






EXPLAIN THIS STATEMENT SIR! In all my years I don't think I have ever heard anyone refer to the Snes as "overrated" let alone "massively". What year is it where you are and do they have coffee in your mirrored universe?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2015, 12:47:07 AM by Nile Boogie Returns »

Offline Phil

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2015, 10:54:41 PM »
SNES was awesome. It's a shame that it was during a time when my brother and I stuck to series we knew we liked. We didn't play Super Metroid, any of the Kirby games, or Chrono Trigger until much, much later! D:


The Wii was fantastic because it had AAA, AA, and A stuff, and the AA stuff was where you could find really sweet gems. The Mushroom Men, Trauma Center, We Love Golf, A Boy and His Blob, Blast Works, Opoona, Shaun White, Tatsunoko VS. Capcom, Go Vacation, Super Swing Golf, Dewy's Adventure, a whole slew of rail shooters, and so much more.
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Offline Evan_B

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2015, 11:19:02 PM »
Ranking consoles often comes down to personal experience with that console, I suppose. That's what everyone seems to be getting at.
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Offline Spak-Spang

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #48 on: February 12, 2015, 01:26:59 AM »
The thing the Wii did right which will in my mind bring it to top 3 every time...is the virtual console.  The Wii U hasn't done it as good...and the Xbox 360 and PS3 played catch up, because Nintendo was able to get 6-7 different console games onto the system for download play.  Making them better than the originals and bringing back classic gaming to be popular again...legally.  The prices were fair and I loved playing the classics over again. 


Offline NWR_insanolord

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Re: Wii U in the grand scheme of things.
« Reply #49 on: February 12, 2015, 01:50:15 AM »

6: SNES: Massively overrated.






EXPLAIN THIS STATEMENT SIR! In all my years I don't think I have ever heard anyone refer to the Snes as "overrated" let alone "massively". What year is it where you are and do they have coffee in your mirrored universe?

On a certain level I just said that for the reaction, but i realty don't care much for that system. Apart from Super Metroid there isn't much there that I think is really great, partially due to me not being much of a JRPG fan.
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