Topic: Wait, GameCube is more powerful than 3DS?

[BranDonk Kong]

And Resident Evil 5 mops the floor with Revelaitons, sadly - but it is a port of a handheld game.

[NWR_insanolord]

looks x1000 times better than Wind Waker.

In the words of one of my predecessors, your opinion is objectively wrong.

[Mop it up]

I think all games can benefit from better specs, some more than others though. In the case of Wind Waker, it's another game that seemed a bit low-poly to me, and this is only amplified in the HD version where the chunkiness really stands out. If the graphics were actually made on modern hardware then things would look a lot more smooth and rounded than they do.

[Ian Sane]

So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now?  Come on!  That's delusional.

If the Gamecube is truly more powerful than the 3DS (and the Ice Climber isn't just a bullshit excuse) that doesn't matter to me.  One is a handheld and one is a console.  It takes advancements in technology to shrink down hardware that used to be cutting edge into a portable size and one that also doesn't produce too much heat (can't put a fan in a handheld) or suck up battery life too quickly.  I don't like intentionally underpowered consoles but I expect a trade-off for handhelds.  Hell that's something Nintendo has always done right that their competition always screws up.

Keep in mind also that the 3DS outputs to a much smaller screen (well screens) so its need to make the graphics as sharp isn't so high.  Of course it needs to dedicate some performance to a two screens at once and 3D effects and online play which Melee obviously didn't have.

To me the issue is entirely that Nintendo's insistence on making both games the same has compromised the console version which absolutely could do what both Melee and Brawl did and much more.  But imagine there was a significant release date gap between the 3DS and Wii U games and they weren't connected.  In that case you might be much more accepting of the Ice Climbers being cut.  The connection between both games brings console experience expectations to the handheld version.

[Adrock]

So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now?  Come on!  That's delusional.

Dude, one person said that and everyone else was like, "No, that's not true at all..." I'm trying really hard to ignore your absurd generalizations, but even I couldn't let this go.

Edit: Okay, maybe two. Nile was kind of defending it.

[nickmitch]

Maybe he was just responding to those two people?

[Nile Boogie Returns]

So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now?  Come on!  That's delusional.

Dude, one person said that and everyone else was like, "No, that's not true at all..." I'm trying really hard to ignore your absurd generalizations, but even I couldn't let this go.


Edit: Okay, maybe two. Nile was kind of defending it.

I'm not crazy i was just making a point about graphics being subjective.

[ObbyDent]

So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now?  Come on!  That's delusional.

Dude, one person said that and everyone else was like, "No, that's not true at all..." I'm trying really hard to ignore your absurd generalizations, but even I couldn't let this go.


Edit: Okay, maybe two. Nile was kind of defending it.

I'm not crazy i was just making a point about graphics being subjective.

Specs are not subjective.

[pokepal148]

So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now?  Come on!  That's delusional.

Dude, one person said that and everyone else was like, "No, that's not true at all..." I'm trying really hard to ignore your absurd generalizations, but even I couldn't let this go.


Edit: Okay, maybe two. Nile was kind of defending it.

I'm not crazy i was just making a point about graphics being subjective.

Specs are not subjective.

But good specs /= good graphics.

I don't care what kind of hardware your game is running on. If your game doesn't have good art design or you don't take advantage of it's hardware for presentation then the game won't look good.

The PS4/xbone may have more capable hardware then the gamecube but that doesn't mean that all ps4 games look better then gamecube games.

looks x1000 times better than Wind Waker.

No, not quite, sorry.

[NWR_insanolord]

So Nintendo has conditioned their fans to think specs = bad so effectively that we're getting Gamecube vs. PS4 comparisons now?  Come on!  That's delusional.

Dude, one person said that and everyone else was like, "No, that's not true at all..." I'm trying really hard to ignore your absurd generalizations, but even I couldn't let this go.


Edit: Okay, maybe two. Nile was kind of defending it.

I'm not crazy i was just making a point about graphics being subjective.

Specs are not subjective.

Subjective may not be the best choice of words, but they can be hard to pin down. Better specs don't necessarily mean better graphics; most any game that came out on both 360 and PS3 will show you that. Specs don't mean a damn thing in a vacuum, it's all about what you do with them.

[Ian Sane]

But good specs /= good graphics.

I don't care what kind of hardware your game is running on. If your game doesn't have good art design or you don't take advantage of it's hardware for presentation then the game won't look good.

The PS4/xbone may have more capable hardware then the gamecube but that doesn't mean that all ps4 games look better then gamecube games.

It doesn't have to be every game though.  Every system has some games that look terrible both in art design and in regards to pushing the hardware.  The thing is you could take every Gamecube game ever released and port it to the PS4 but you couldn't go the other way.  Hey doesn't Wind Waker on the Wii U look better than the Gamecube version?  Specs make a huge difference.  Think of it as giving an artist better tools to work with.  Can a great artist paint a beautiful picture using only four colours?  Sure, but think of what that same artist can do with millions of colours at his disposal.  As the tools improve not everything made with it improves but the potential increases and great works can reach a level that could not be done in the past.

Besides Nintendo fans weren't so defensive about specs until the Wii came out.  I remember us all bragging about the Gamecube's technical superiority to the PS2.  We all mocked the PS2 version of RE4 for looking inferior to the Gamecube one.  Specs seemed to matter when it was something we had over the other guys and it ceased to matter once we didn't.  Just like FPS games were awesome on the N64 but are just bro-gamer nonsense now and RPGs were awesome on the SNES and then sucked during the N64 years but are now great again.  And sales didn't matter when Sony was kicking our ass but they were the go-to argument to depend against any complaint about the Wii.

You can do more with better specs.  That's not a debate, it's a fact.  What level of specs are sufficient for a current game system and at what price point?  Yeah, that's a discussion.

[NWR_insanolord]

That's a heck of a straw man you built there. There's nowhere near that much agreement among Nintendo fans to argue that those opinions were anywhere near universal. Nintendo probably wishes we were so consistent with those kinds of thing, as it would probably make it easier for them to please us.

[BranDonk Kong]

Better specs = *potential* for better graphics. Also graphics can be judged both subjectively and objectively, and sometimes a different conclusion can come from either way of looking at them.

[pokepal148]

You can do more with better specs.  That's not a debate, it's a fact.

No **** Sherlock, I never said anything implying otherwise.

[Spak-Spang]

But good specs /= good graphics.

I don't care what kind of hardware your game is running on. If your game doesn't have good art design or you don't take advantage of it's hardware for presentation then the game won't look good.

The PS4/xbone may have more capable hardware then the gamecube but that doesn't mean that all ps4 games look better then gamecube games.

It doesn't have to be every game though.  Every system has some games that look terrible both in art design and in regards to pushing the hardware.  The thing is you could take every Gamecube game ever released and port it to the PS4 but you couldn't go the other way.  Hey doesn't Wind Waker on the Wii U look better than the Gamecube version?  Specs make a huge difference.  Think of it as giving an artist better tools to work with.  Can a great artist paint a beautiful picture using only four colours?  Sure, but think of what that same artist can do with millions of colours at his disposal.  As the tools improve not everything made with it improves but the potential increases and great works can reach a level that could not be done in the past.

Besides Nintendo fans weren't so defensive about specs until the Wii came out.  I remember us all bragging about the Gamecube's technical superiority to the PS2.  We all mocked the PS2 version of RE4 for looking inferior to the Gamecube one.  Specs seemed to matter when it was something we had over the other guys and it ceased to matter once we didn't.  Just like FPS games were awesome on the N64 but are just bro-gamer nonsense now and RPGs were awesome on the SNES and then sucked during the N64 years but are now great again.  And sales didn't matter when Sony was kicking our ass but they were the go-to argument to depend against any complaint about the Wii.

You can do more with better specs.  That's not a debate, it's a fact.  What level of specs are sufficient for a current game system and at what price point?  Yeah, that's a discussion.

I agree with this...with a caveat.  Many times art is about limiting yourself, working with the tools you have and through that challenge create something great.  Look at Shovel Knight.  Clearly better tools were available, but they made a beautifully artistically amazing game, that although uses lower technology I believe actually looks more appealing and better than many of the PS4 games.  Not because it is a technical marvel, but because it is aesthetically pleasing to me.

[Mop it up]

Why does everyone keep generalizing so much?

[BranDonk Kong]

Wow, way to group everybody altogether.

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

If Shovel Knight was on PS4 would you still feel that way? How do you feel about Mega Man 9 or 10 are they works of art too or are they just sloppy cash grabs?

I have no problem with saying art is subjective but graphics are not, at least not when the game depends on it. If we are talking racing games, as an example you can not say that more polygons and graphics effects making a better looking car is not better graphics. You can say you prefer the art style of Wind Waker over the art style of Mass Effect but you can't really say it has better graphics, it just has a unique art style you appreciate more.

before you give me **** for my opinions keep in mind I don't own a PS4 and I don't give a **** about graphics either but it is really, really hard to accept someone would honestly think Game Cube is as powerful as PS4, there is just no way you can honestly believe that.

[NWR_insanolord]

Graphics are absolutely subjective, outside of certain technical measurements. I disagree with your premise that there's a substantive difference between "art" and "graphics."

[Spak-Spang]

If Shovel Knight was on PS4 would you still feel that way? How do you feel about Mega Man 9 or 10 are they works of art too or are they just sloppy cash grabs?

I have no problem with saying art is subjective but graphics are not, at least not when the game depends on it. If we are talking racing games, as an example you can not say that more polygons and graphics effects making a better looking car is not better graphics. You can say you prefer the art style of Wind Waker over the art style of Mass Effect but you can't really say it has better graphics, it just has a unique art style you appreciate more.

before you give me **** for my opinions keep in mind I don't own a PS4 and I don't give a **** about graphics either but it is really, really hard to accept someone would honestly think Game Cube is as powerful as PS4, there is just no way you can honestly believe that.

Was this directed at me?  If so.  Yes, Mega Man 9 and 10 are beautiful works of art.  I have always loved the 8 bit style Mega Man games much greater than basically all other incarnations of him.  In fact the added detail in the character in Mega Man 7 ruins it.  The detail actually breaks some of the charm. 

Also, I will say I loved the art style of F-Zero 64...the design had bland racers without much detail, but something about it clicked with me.  Now, I will not say it was better than the Gamecube F-Zero, but it worked.

All I meant to say is that sometimes limits allow you to create something that is special precisely because it had limits.  However, it doesn't mean that using the most powerful advanced technology available to make some technically amazing art isn't equally impressive and often times more impressive it is different.  And tastes change. 

In fact when I was in High School and college I tried to get back into Retro gaming, but the art and controls felt awful and I couldn't appreciate it.  However, when the Wii Virtual Console came out, I fell in love with all the classics all over again.  I was in Retro heaven, and I loved the graphics...to the point I enjoyed them more than the modern games sometimes. 

[marvel_moviefan_2012]

I wasn't being or intending to be confrontational I was asking for clarify, so you offered that. I was just seriously unsure about that. I wasn't saying if you believed that you are wrong I was just wondering if your view was because it was on Wii U that it looked beautiful to you but you sound smarter than that so I wasn't sure.

[Ian Sane]

But good specs /= good graphics.

I don't care what kind of hardware your game is running on. If your game doesn't have good art design or you don't take advantage of it's hardware for presentation then the game won't look good.

The PS4/xbone may have more capable hardware then the gamecube but that doesn't mean that all ps4 games look better then gamecube games.

It doesn't have to be every game though.  Every system has some games that look terrible both in art design and in regards to pushing the hardware.  The thing is you could take every Gamecube game ever released and port it to the PS4 but you couldn't go the other way.  Hey doesn't Wind Waker on the Wii U look better than the Gamecube version?  Specs make a huge difference.  Think of it as giving an artist better tools to work with.  Can a great artist paint a beautiful picture using only four colours?  Sure, but think of what that same artist can do with millions of colours at his disposal.  As the tools improve not everything made with it improves but the potential increases and great works can reach a level that could not be done in the past.

Besides Nintendo fans weren't so defensive about specs until the Wii came out.  I remember us all bragging about the Gamecube's technical superiority to the PS2.  We all mocked the PS2 version of RE4 for looking inferior to the Gamecube one.  Specs seemed to matter when it was something we had over the other guys and it ceased to matter once we didn't.  Just like FPS games were awesome on the N64 but are just bro-gamer nonsense now and RPGs were awesome on the SNES and then sucked during the N64 years but are now great again.  And sales didn't matter when Sony was kicking our ass but they were the go-to argument to depend against any complaint about the Wii.

You can do more with better specs.  That's not a debate, it's a fact.  What level of specs are sufficient for a current game system and at what price point?  Yeah, that's a discussion.

I agree with this...with a caveat.  Many times art is about limiting yourself, working with the tools you have and through that challenge create something great.  Look at Shovel Knight.  Clearly better tools were available, but they made a beautifully artistically amazing game, that although uses lower technology I believe actually looks more appealing and better than many of the PS4 games.  Not because it is a technical marvel, but because it is aesthetically pleasing to me.

"Less is more" is totally valid.  Some of my favourite looking games are over 20 years old.  There are a fair amount of artists that actually seemed to suck once they didn't have limitations to work with.  But one can always choose to use a small corner of a big sandbox.  It can't go the other way.  If you restrict the tech you deny anyone the option to make use of the bigger sandbox.  You're forcing everyone to work with more limitations when that's not necessarily the best situation for everybody.  Some developers will challenge themselves by going for broke and trying to make full use of the top tools of the day.  Shovel Knight shows that you can always go backwards if you want so you don't need to restrict everyone else.

[NWR_insanolord]

I'm with Ian here; working with less can produce great results, but it can also make things just plain not work. Forcing that kind of environment across the board is generally not a good idea.

[Mop it up]

The problem with working with less these days is that people have seen the best of what technology can offer today and it seems the typical consumer wants it. 8-bit wasn't a stylistic choice back in the 80s, it was about as good as affordable technology could get and people accepted it for that reason. Shovel Knight, for example, could be a full-priced retail game on NES but today it's relegated to a $15 download, and many people will probably still wait for a sale to buy it.

I think this is becoming a problem, because it seems there's little place for those mid-range titles these days. The ones that have more meat and halfway decent graphics than the indie/download-only games, but aren't so bloated with flashiness and technical proficiency like AAA titles. And these were often my fave games, but nowadays they don't really sell. It would be nice if the mainstream consumer had a wider variety of tastes.

[NWR_insanolord]

It was also a lot more developer-intensive to make games like that in the 80s and required the expense of physical cartridges. I also think that as digital distribution becomes more and more the norm you'll start to see that middle ground filled in more. Look at Steam, where there's tons of stuff in the $20-40 price range.