Author Topic: Episode 389: Best Practices  (Read 16623 times)

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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #50 on: July 10, 2014, 05:12:51 PM »
I'll sign that petition!
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Offline Ceric

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #51 on: July 10, 2014, 05:23:58 PM »
Man if I was going to make a Jonny Action Figure what comes as the top of Page 2 and 3 would be something it say when pressing the voice button.  In a happy type of use care salesman voice.

Pile it on, guys!
I'll sign that petition!
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Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #52 on: July 10, 2014, 06:25:17 PM »
Man, Johnny... I'm VERY sorry about how this has all gone down. I probably should have thought up a different question that wouldn't have brought on all this negativity. I think in my head at the time by keeping the Smash talk to a minimum in my email I was hoping you'd maybe just launch into a discussion about controllers. I can't remember which episode it was, but James very much broke down the purpose behind the Gamecube controller's design philosophy. I remember he said something to the effect of "The Z-button was meant to be a menu button alone!" or something like that.

I love you guys. Really, I thought I was pretty much done with video game related podcasting after getting sick of both IGN's Nintendo Voice Chat and Gametrailer's Invisible Walls (Boy was it kinda a shock to my system when I found out Bloodworth was from around these parts!). I went dry on podcasts until one day I stumbled here due to youtube of all things referring me to one of Neal's 3DS Launch event videos and me wanting to go to the site to get more info, and... yeah, the rest is history. There isn't anybody better suited to host this gig than Johnny. His authoritative and no-nonsense approach makes him a natural leader, James Jones is a cynic that has such a penchant for trolling that it makes him ideal to play devil's advocate in a round-table discussion. Jon Lindymann is pretty good at keeping things with a light tone and does a pretty good job at representing games that tend to be out of at least my own gaming comfort zone, and whereas Greg was the introspective intellectual who's vocabulary did a wonderful job of putting into words the intangible gaming sensibilities that for the longest time I would be unable to explain. Gui however brings a more straightforward approach to the fourth wheel, and has his lady friend who it's always fascinating to hear how she digests a game alongside Gui. I guess the point of the love letter here is PLEASE DO NOT LET THE NEGATIVITY DISCOURAGE YOU FROM YOUR CURRENT ENDEAVORS

I'm glad you guys have fought so hard to understand and report for Super Smash Bros. in the way you have. I hope that that maybe some day I can make it up to you lot for all this. I'll make sure to think more carefully before I sent questions into the show. Like I did with the music one. You folks seemed to like that one and it probably didn't cause this much heat.

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #53 on: July 10, 2014, 07:00:58 PM »
Not your fault! We chose to read it on the show. It was a good question and a worthy topic. Lately, I've been drawn more to potentially controversial emails on the show because I like jumping into a conversation when I don't know where it will go.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #54 on: July 10, 2014, 07:08:04 PM »
Oh, and I want to say to everyone who has written nice things about the show, my colleagues, or me -- thank you. It means a lot more than you realize. And to anyone who has criticized us -- thank you too. It can be very helpful, and I appreciate that you care enough to say something when you're not happy with the show.
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Offline NWR_Karl

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #55 on: July 10, 2014, 10:34:52 PM »
All I'm gonna say is that competitive Super Smash Bros. players are bad people who should feel bad.
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Offline Crimm

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #56 on: July 10, 2014, 10:55:59 PM »

Oh damn, what went down in thread town?



A couple points,


1: I know more than I let on. Earlier comments about Smash, specifically competitive Smash, are more pokes than stabs. I just disagree with the arguments that are used to explain the rule sets, which leads to #2.


2: Much of the arguments for the tournament rule set we've been emailed are "skilled play is hurt by items," which comes off as dismissive - managing risk (including items and stage hazards) is a skill. A different skill? Sure, but a skill no less. Learn the stages and the items and you can counter many of them. Are there some items (bombs specifically) that can spawn and one-hit-kill? Sure. However, the problem of these one-hit-kills is exacerbated by the "3-Stock" playstyle. Time or more stock both will allow the "randomness" to be diluted. And again, this is an edge case. You're talking about a small subset of items and for this concern to manifest they need to spawn in a very specific spot. While there may be an argument for deactivating those specific items - blanket "No Items" rules don't answer the question of specific issues with specific items - it is carpet bombing instead of surgery. I refuse to believe there are zero items in the playset that can be used without "breaking" competitive play.

The thread above is interesting, and I think some very solid points are made in it that I fully agree with (also, to point 1, I saw that thread years ago when it was in its infancy). With that said, the fact is that 29.1% of their users that voted in that poll voted no point blank. No review, no testing. Just no, and that's silly. It is a simple statment that Items are imbalanced because items are imbalanced. And again, the poll is literally about a PARALLEL rule structure to the current structure. And still, no.


I'll conclude with a recent post that sums up points I've made on the show before but are consistently dismissed. This is a post straight from the hive. Any arguments against my knowledge making me unqualified do not apply her (although I argue they don't apply anyway).


I think a valid argument for items that almost never gets brought up is that for tournament play to grow Smash needs to become more of a spectator sport - and most people who play Smash play with items on. The hardcore tourney goers are few and far between. Whenever someone mentions adding items back to the game and seemingly the entire response to it is negative it's largely because there is no inherent reason to express agreement. Tournament smash players have been the vocal minority for a community so far removed from them it borders on insanity. The average person owning a copy of any given Smash game will almost never play without items as the frantic pace and chaos is actually a selling point to the franchise.

With that said it does change the balance of the game dramatically. I won't say it imbalances the game (the game being more or less balanced depending on how you define balance), but changes the way you have to analyze it.



 




I hate the phrase eSports. I've made that clear in the past. I find watching most "eSport" games to be pretty dull. Competitive Starcraft makes me want to die. League and DOTA really aren't visually arresting if you're not deep into those games. Smash Bros, when played the way the VAST majority of people play it, is a tremendously fun thing to watch. It's like Las Vegas crapped a firework factory into a bonfire. To enshrine the undeniably less visually arresting version as THE eSport way sells the product short - in this case the product is both the "eSport" and the game itself.

You may not agree with me, but these are my opinions. The furor with which I deliver them is in no small part do the failure of anyone to articulate a counter to them that I find compelling. I find reliance on "skills" as the counterargument to be flat and dismissive of the "skills" of people who play the game the more traditional way.

To Jonny's point, regardless of the tone we use, regardless of what we say, we simply cannot avoid getting angry replies. So yes, I asked Jonny last night if we can avoid the topic of Smash at least until the 3DS game is released. If the person who agreed with me wants to out themselves that's their choice, but I was not alone.

I like Smash Bros quite a bit, but lately find that talking about it on the podcast to be a chore. And that's sad, because we don't get paid to do this. We do this because we love it. With that in mind it, like iPhone games before it, has become the kind of topic that I simply no longer wish to discuss.

And that's all I'm going to say on any of the above topics. Reply if you wish but I simply wont respond to it.


If you'd like to compare your Rec Rec compositions I'm all ears.
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Offline Crimm

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #57 on: July 10, 2014, 11:11:07 PM »
...also if you guys would like write some emails that make me feel more in my element I'd really appreciate it.




I'll give you some topics.


  • Music
  • The progression of color pallets with the increase in console memory
  • N64 strategy games released between October 1, 2000 and October 31, 2000
  • Japanese culture
  • Adventure Games/Visual Novels and the difference between the two
  • Software development
  • French breads
  • 1918 Spring Offensive
  • Impact on the Council of Ephesus on future schismatic moments in the dissolution of a "unified" Christian brotherhood
  • Socio-economic-military relations between East Asian states and their Western allies/nonallies
  • Mario.
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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2014, 11:27:46 PM »
James,

For what it's worth, my comment was snark for snark's sake.  Even if you're well-informed, I don't care about anyone's opinion regarding tourney play. 

I don't understand why it's this podcast's responsibility to give a fair representation of the smash tourney scene.  I don't even agree with too much of RFN's opinions on the virtues of GameCube vs pro controllers and what changes need to take place for tourney play, but to say they need to have a guest panelist from the pro scene is rididculous.

The smash tourney scene is a niche portion of the overall player base of the game.  I'd argue that the only reason Nintendo's catering to the competitive players is because they're in such a piss-poor position with console sales that they know they need to court whomever they can to the Wii U fold.  If Wii U was selling like the Wii was, Nintendo wouldn't even acknowledge the rabid tourney base.
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2014, 11:36:23 PM »
Outside of character reveals or interesting news on the game itself it would probably be best to drop it.

Meanwhile I'm going to send an email about 'Impact on the Council of Ephesus on future schismatic moments in the dissolution of a "unified" Christian brotherhood' and how that relates to smash bros. :D
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Offline Crimm

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #60 on: July 10, 2014, 11:59:14 PM »
Syro-Malabar Catholics of Goa use items?
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Offline pokepal148

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #61 on: July 11, 2014, 12:50:12 AM »
Syro-Malabar Catholics of Goa use items?
Yes along with many other Catholics in the eastern part of the Church.

In fact the real reason for the eastern-western schism is because Pope Leo refused to allow the use of items in the Church's official Smash Bros. Tournaments.
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Offline InvaderREN

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #62 on: July 11, 2014, 04:08:54 AM »
GC Controller: I own 4. I used them for Melee. I used them for Brawl. Do I want to use them for Smash U? Of course!


It's just that simple. Anyone who loves smash owns 4 GC controllers... I don't care if the controller is not perfect. I don't care if it's 2014 and we are using a decade old controller. I use a GC controller for smash. All my friends do too.


Nintendo will let me use my 4 GC controllers for Smash U?


THANK YOU.


Clean off the dust, the Smash controllers are about to go round 3!!!!!!

Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #63 on: July 11, 2014, 06:39:44 AM »
GC Controller: I own 4. I used them for Melee. I used them for Brawl. Do I want to use them for Smash U? Of course!


It's just that simple. Anyone who loves smash owns 4 GC controllers... I don't care if the controller is not perfect. I don't care if it's 2014 and we are using a decade old controller. I use a GC controller for smash. All my friends do too.


Nintendo will let me use my 4 GC controllers for Smash U?


THANK YOU.


Clean off the dust, the Smash controllers are about to go round 3!!!!!!

Round 4; you can use them with the VC port of Smash 64 for melee/brawl-like controls.

My worry is that companies will actually support this thing outside of Smash 4 and we'll get people playing with GCN controllers and subbing other controllers again. if this adapter gets more widespread support, Nintendo has screwed themselves out of selling more pro controllers, which would be more profitable then selling htis dongle and letting people fool around with their 10+ year old controllers.

Admittingly, I say this, and I too will be a part of the problem. Sonic Colors? Played that with a Gamecube Controller. La Mulana? GCN controller as well. Klonoa: Journey to Phantomile? Muramasa? Mario Kart Wii? NiGHTS? Tatsunoko Vs. Capcom? GCN Controller every time because while I might have been teathered to the console, it just felt so good. I didn't have to reach awkwardly for buttons or feel cramped like I did with the tiny classic controller, which I felt could have been so much better if they made it a little bit wider. the handles on the GCN controller feel so natural to grip, the analogue shoulders are responsive with a gentle tap that still gives enough resistance for me to respect. the 8-direction notched mold with the analogues allow for percision in the cardinal directions, which quite a few games are designed around.

You know another controller i really don't like? The Xbox 360 controller. the bumpers don't depress enough and feel very cheap, almost every 360 controller I have owned has **** face buttons that get mushy very quickly, the analoge triggers don't exactly feel great and I miss the click or them having that groove to fit your fingers, the D-pat is complete and utter ****, and the 4 little nubby nub things that are meant to be a grip for your finger wear down SO quickly... whereas with the gamecube controller, the circular 'ripple' styled rubber grip for your finger has dulled, but never completley worn off so I'm not slipping around.

This is why the Wii U pro controller never sounded appealing to me, promises of a decent D-pad aside. there's a reason why I downloaded Motionjoy for my computer and have been using a dualshock 3 controller for my PC gaming rather than a 360 pad, and even then I'm not satisfied because I've never been the huget fan of the analogues on the Dualshock series controller either.

Offline fenrir_VII

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #64 on: July 11, 2014, 09:42:46 AM »
@James: Thanks for the post. Airing it that way makes sense, and I get what you're saying, and aside from preferences here and there, I don't disagree with anything you're saying. Although I might argue that the majority of Melee players at this point might be current tournament players (conjecture and unimportant), this certainly won't be the case for Smash 4, so there is a potential for change.


For anybody who's not aware, the current rulesets were developed with a good deal of trial and error... the early Melee rulesets actually had items on. The issues occurred (in tournament) fairly frequently, where exploding boxes/capsules/etc would literally fall out of the sky on one person's head, and you couldn't turn boxes/capsules off in the options. The problem occurred that nobody would want to travel/spend time+money for a tournament where one random occurrence would end their run... so the scene would have died.
To James' point, you can minimize this with having more stock, etc... but if you and your opponent are roughly equal and the game decides to bop you only.. you get my point. It leaves a bad taste in the players' (and spectators') mouths.


With Brawl, there actually was the option to turn off all exploding items, eliminating the insta-death threat. But people get stuck once a standard is developed, so the "no items" methodology was adopted from the start. I'll say that it is very likely that the majority of Smash 4 tournaments early on will do the same thing...
But here's where people can actually make a difference. People can argue til they're blue in the fingertips on websites like Smashboards, etc... but the way to make a change is through doing tournaments and having people come and enjoy themselves. In a typical competitive environment, "random" is usually associated with "unfair", but it's possible that isn't the case.


If people are able to have tournaments with items that other people actually consistently attend, then the scene will have to shift. Period. But it's going to be on the people who care to actually make these tournaments happen. The tournament organizer can put whatever ruleset he wants, and people will come if they are interested. I know I would personally attend an items-on tournament anywhere near me. To this point, I am actually planning a tournament in SC for the next few months. This tournament WILL have an items-on event (in addition to a standard-ruleset event). I don't think everybody is opposed to items... but the current competitive players tend to prefer them off. If you want to change minds, show people something different. There's a huge audience for the new games... the time for a change (if one is going to happen) is now.
Essentially I'm saying... you want an items-on tournament? Make one, instead of complaining that the tournament rules don't allow them. You aren't limited by that. (note: this isn't directed at anybody in particular)

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #65 on: July 11, 2014, 10:19:37 AM »
It's interesting because in the link I posted the main reason they felt the pokeball wasn't suitable to a competitive environment due to the disruptive nature of some of the legends but now that the legends have been seperated ftom the group and given their own ball... coincidence maybe...
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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #66 on: July 11, 2014, 12:45:29 PM »
Quote
I'll give you some topics.


  • Music
  • The progression of color pallets with the increase in console memory
  • N64 strategy games released between October 1, 2000 and October 31, 2000
  • Japanese culture
  • Adventure Games/Visual Novels and the difference between the two
  • Software development
  • French breads
  • 1918 Spring Offensive
  • Impact on the Council of Ephesus on future schismatic moments in the dissolution of a "unified" Christian brotherhood
  • Socio-economic-military relations between East Asian states and their Western allies/nonallies
  • Mario. [/l][/l]
And this is why I love James. XD

Quote
My worry is that companies will actually support this thing outside of Smash 4 and we'll get people playing with GCN controllers and subbing other controllers again.

Why are you worried about this? This is exactly what I'm hoping for. In my opinion, the Gamecube controller is the best controller Nintendo has ever made, and I would like the option of playing games with it. I loved that I was allowed to play so many Wii games with whatever control option I liked best. If new Wii U games start adding Gamecube controller support, why do you care? Use the Pro controller if you want and I'll use the Gamecube controller. That's the great thing about options, you get to choose what works best for you.[/list]

Offline daverhodus

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #67 on: July 11, 2014, 01:52:35 PM »
At least I avoided this Smash discussion.

Offline NotMario

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2014, 02:44:14 PM »
While I'm not one if those people that thinks the GameCube controller is the best ever (as it does have some significant problems), I still really like certain elements from it. If Nintendo ever makes a console with a traditional controller again I think they would be wise to iterate on some of the GameCube controller's features.
For me, it's main problems are the terrible Z button (and the lack of having a left shoulder Z button) and the C stick being a little nub instead of a full, normal analogue stick.

If they took the good elements like the mush-click L and R triggers while adding proper L and R shoulder buttons, keep the same comfortable grip and change the C stick to a normal stick I think they would really have one of the best controllers. The weird ABXY button layout I can live with or without, though I know most people like the traditional SNES diamond configuration (and we're all just more used to it at this point), so if they ever took inspiration from the GameCube controller they'd probably be best to keep the ABYX buttons in the diamond configuration.

While I agree with you guys that Nintendo shouldn't keep stringing the GameCube controller along for every console, I think that controller had some great features and elements that I'd like to see come back since nobody has really done some things like its mush-click shoulder buttons since. That is, unless you count their useless inclusion on the original Wii Classic Controller. Basically what I'm saying is give me L and R buttons like the GameCube.

Offline ClexYoshi

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #69 on: July 11, 2014, 06:17:33 PM »
Quote
I'll give you some topics.


  • Music
  • The progression of color pallets with the increase in console memory
  • N64 strategy games released between October 1, 2000 and October 31, 2000
  • Japanese culture
  • Adventure Games/Visual Novels and the difference between the two
  • Software development
  • French breads
  • 1918 Spring Offensive
  • Impact on the Council of Ephesus on future schismatic moments in the dissolution of a "unified" Christian brotherhood
  • Socio-economic-military relations between East Asian states and their Western allies/nonallies
  • Mario. [/l][/l][/l][/l]
And this is why I love James. XD

Quote
My worry is that companies will actually support this thing outside of Smash 4 and we'll get people playing with GCN controllers and subbing other controllers again.

Why are you worried about this? This is exactly what I'm hoping for. In my opinion, the Gamecube controller is the best controller Nintendo has ever made, and I would like the option of playing games with it. I loved that I was allowed to play so many Wii games with whatever control option I liked best. If new Wii U games start adding Gamecube controller support, why do you care? Use the Pro controller if you want and I'll use the Gamecube controller. That's the great thing about options, you get to choose what works best for you.[/q]


Because I'm very afraid that my GCN controllers will not last forever. XD I know they're reprinting the one Smash Bros. patterned one, but like... as nice as options are, I feel like all of this muddles the Wii U's identity further than it already is muddled.[/list]

Offline Apollo5

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #70 on: July 12, 2014, 12:10:10 PM »
I figured I would chime in as someone who followed this podcast before joining staff and someone who enjoys tourny rules Smash.
 
This podcast does not try to put itself out there as if all the opinions of the host and panelists are facts.  They are opinions.  As a fan of games in general I enjoy to listen to a variety of podcasts, some of which I have very differing views on games than those involved in the podcast.  Even RFN is one of those podcasts.  Personally I despise Metroid style games, however from listening to Johnny for a while I have at least gained an appreciation for them as a genre and a vital part of Nintendo history.

With Smash and the Gamecube controller, the RFN team is just offering their own opinion.  I enjoy playing Smash without the items and think the Gamecube controller is the superior input device for the game.  However, I understand that the likely hood is that many people find that controller to be a step backwards, and technically it is... that thing is over 10 years old now.  Listening to opinions I disagree with gets me to think differently and try things I would never try otherwise, even if my opinion stays the same.

As far as the structure of the people on RFN I think Johnny does a great job hosting.  The job of a host is to facilitate conversation and keep things on task and RFN is easily one of the most organized podcasts I listen to.  Listen to Episode 103 for an example of what happens without direction :p.
Addison Webb

Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #71 on: July 12, 2014, 06:55:13 PM »
So yes, I asked Jonny last night if we can avoid the topic of Smash at least until the 3DS game is released. If the person who agreed with me wants to out themselves that's their choice, but I was not alone. [/font]

This was me. I'm tired of the topic because I feel it's gone well past the point of offering constructive - or more importantly interesting or entertaining - discussion.  It's moved into "prove a point" territory which by its very nature means that it's extremely important to a few people but mostly unimportant for the majority of our audience.  It's become an "issue", which we never meant it to be, and I want to derail that before it goes any further.

Like somebody else said above, it's not our responsibility to give Smash tourney players a "fair shake". As the only real MMO player on the show, Gui, James, and Jonny have routinely trolled the genre but I don't get up in arms over it. I don't feel the need to "prove" to them the legitimacy of the genre. I simply let them wallow in their ignorance, pitying them as the saved might pity the doomed.  Forgive them MMO Lord, for they know not what they do. I'd love it for the Smash Tourney players to adopt the same smug, holier-than-thou attitude, hahaha.
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Offline Crimm

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #72 on: July 12, 2014, 09:04:22 PM »
We all have different likes, but I think we can all agree, **** League!
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Offline Enner

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #73 on: July 12, 2014, 09:40:00 PM »
Once you understand some of the basics of DOTA, watching those MOBA games can be kind of fun. Honest!

Offline Jo351

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #74 on: July 13, 2014, 06:42:51 PM »
We all have different likes, but I think we can all agree, **** League!


Nah, League is great.  One of my most played games!