Author Topic: Episode 389: Best Practices  (Read 16625 times)

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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #25 on: July 09, 2014, 07:51:43 PM »
Pile it on, guys!
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Offline Pixelated Pixies

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #26 on: July 09, 2014, 07:59:09 PM »
Awesome episode guys!

I'm really looking forward to Shovel knight being released in Europe. I think I'm going to really DIG that game...

On the point of Smash Bros and this on-going tension between 'casual players' and 'competitive players', I've got nothing. Smash Bros is a series that I've never found to be satisfying, either as a casual party game or a competitive brawler. In concept the idea of gaming's greatest icons fighting it out is super appealing, but Sakurai's approach to the mechanics of fighting have never worked for me.
Gouge away.

Offline NWR_Neal

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #27 on: July 09, 2014, 08:10:17 PM »
I love Jonny and he is one of my favorite podcast personalities, even before I joined staff.
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Offline daverhodus

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #28 on: July 09, 2014, 08:39:11 PM »
I should have found a way to articulate my frustration better, instead of singling out one guy. My issue was with most of that discussion. I thought the listener asked an interesting question. I felt like a lot of that discussion was a shoehorned attempt to criticize the listeners. I'm sure other people felt differently about it.

Offline TrueNerd

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #29 on: July 09, 2014, 08:49:07 PM »
Yeah I also love Jonny. Demanding he take a break or whatever is nonsense.

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #30 on: July 09, 2014, 09:02:08 PM »
I'm not demanding anything, I'm just noticing alot of hate on him and basically throwing noodles on a wall.

I'm fine with him (although I still say Gui needs to step it up a bit) but others aren't so I'm trying to play troubleshooting and failing at it.
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Offline mereel

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #31 on: July 09, 2014, 09:23:55 PM »
Good grief. I hope Johnny is ignoring his detractors found in this thread. They certainly are a vocal minority, as this podcast continues to grow in popularity. RFN has in Johnny a bold and eloquent host who can keep the discussion interesting, on topic and moving fast. He's also very dedicated, serving as RFN host week after week. All that can't be easy, and this isn't his day job.


There are plenty of wannabe podcasts with distracted wimps for hosts, but RFN isn't one of them.

Offline ejamer

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #32 on: July 09, 2014, 09:33:43 PM »
Just for a counterpoint, I think some of the criticism posted here is kind of ridiculous. Maybe people taking things out of context, or taking things personally that shouldn't be, or whatever... but hey, that's just my opinion.


You know, like how stuff said on the show is just one opinion coming from one viewpoint - and should only be taken as such.


C'est la vie.
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Offline ejamer

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #33 on: July 09, 2014, 09:44:26 PM »
Regarding the actual podcast, loved hearing some talk about Xenoblade again. My excitement for the sequel continues to grow... it's getting to the point I'm strongly considering replaying the game (what's another 100 hours?) before the year is out.


Despite my love for the game, and despite all the effort they put in to making the game respect my time, the menus did feel overwhelming at times and certainly could be time-consuming.  Like Gui, I would only really upgrade my armor/weapons every couple of hours, and then have to deal with tons of inventory junk.  I also fell into the gem crafting pit more than a few times... spending too many hours crafting gems that really weren't useful.


That issue was totally overwhelmed by my love for new vistas and hidden areas, experimenting with all of the different playable characters and parties, and a compelling story.  Can't get enough of this game - so if Gui wants to bring it up in any future episode all the better.
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Offline fenrir_VII

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #34 on: July 10, 2014, 10:56:43 AM »
I think Jonny is a great host... and I respect his opinion quite a bit (although I usually personally disagree with his game preferences), but there are things on the show lately that are just plain wrong or overlooked, and that bothers me.


The specific argument "Why do people love the GCN controller" came up on the show, and Jonny even chimed in with (paraphrase) "the Classic Controller Pro is better in nearly every way", without highlighting the obvious benefits that the GCN controller has over the CCP, or any other controller that Nintendo has made since the Gamecube. Namely (with regards to the CCP):
A) the wire so inputs aren't dropped (NOTORIOUS on the CCP)
B) The reversed control stick position, which is MUCH better for long-term/technical play with the stick (the CCP is geared towards...classic games, so the dpad's preference is understandable there, but not for Smash Bros, which is a control-stick-specific game)
C) The rumble... admittedly not a huge deal, but an option > no option, so this is a + for the GCN controller.


Whether this conversation was directly related to Smash or not (which if you're honest, it kind of HAS to be since the GCN controller is being released FOR Smash only, at least at the moment), Smash 4 would not have had any kind of good competitive scene without a wired controller. Period. So tournament players were worried about it and OVERJOYED when one was revealed. To me (and at least a few others), the fact that it was a Gamecube controller was just icing on the cake (and meant that nobody would have to relearn the control scheme if they played Melee OR Brawl, where the GCN controller was the ONLY wired input available)


This just leads to an overarching problem with the show lately. The hosts (admittedly) do not understand the tournament Smash scene, which includes some (not all) of the most die-hard Nintendo fans there are. While I don't think it's a prerequisite for the hosts to be part of the tournament scene (that would be ridiculous), completely dismissing the scene as a subset, and repeated accusations of "playing the game wrong" are just stupid.


Look I get that you guys all have strong opinions on everything, as do I, but telling anybody that the way they enjoy playing a game, which freely encourages customization, is "wrong" and "not fun" is just a stupid statement. You play the way you want to, and we'll do the same... there doesn't have to be shots fired across those lines.


All that said, as I stated before, I do respect you guys' opinions, and I do appreciate you spending the time to put your voices and thoughts out there. I just wish that it felt like you cared about other fans' opinions and voices, and that you wouldn't shuffle it under the rug with "oh James bashes everybody". Bashing developers for game design choices is understandable. Bashing other fans that don't really impact you is dumb.

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #35 on: July 10, 2014, 12:32:21 PM »
What truly frustrates me is that I've tried very hard to be a firewall against James's outright hatred of tournament-style Smash. I've tried to be open-minded, learn from the many listeners who have written about it, and explore different aspects of it on the show. I attended and gave extensive coverage of the Invitational at E3. In he past few months, RFN has given tournament-style Smash more coverage than any other large gaming podcast maybe ever has. I actually agree with most of what you wrote above and have tried to represent that on the show. Yet the more we discuss the topic, the more we get **** upon. It seems there is no way to win. You don't seem satisfied with anything I do to try giving this interesting subject more exposure on the show. Half the RFN crew requested, just last night, that we never talk about Smash Bros ever again. That's how fucking fed up they are with all this. But I'm not going to censor out the year's biggest release just because a few people get crazy upset whenever it comes up.
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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #36 on: July 10, 2014, 01:04:34 PM »
1)  I thought the only real reason people (including me) prefer to play smash with a GC controller was because it comes with the giant "A" smash button right where the thumb placement is.  Comes in handy for someone like me who uses the b attacks mostly as a way to set-up smash attacks.  That, and I have little girl hands, which makes the gamecube controller fit them better.
2)  Jonny was completely on-point to tell people to "shut the **** up", as he was specifically referencing the tidal wave of ****-posts when Neal posted his 7/10 review for Mariokart 8, which ISNT EVEN A BAD SCORE.  Honestly, between the MarioKart review thread and this podcast thread, it's a wonder any of the staffers interact with us at all when it seems half the population can't handle a having a civil discussion.
3) James Jones doesn't have any input of value for competitive smash brothers, simply on the basis that he doesn't understand it.
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Offline Disco Stu

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #37 on: July 10, 2014, 01:12:17 PM »
What truly frustrates me is that I've tried very hard to be a firewall against James's outright hatred of tournament-style Smash. I've tried to be open-minded, learn from the many listeners who have written about it, and explore different aspects of it on the show. I attended and gave extensive coverage of the Invitational at E3. In he past few months, RFN has given tournament-style Smash more coverage than any other large gaming podcast maybe ever has. I actually agree with most of what you wrote above and have tried to represent that on the show. Yet the more we discuss the topic, the more we get **** upon. It seems there is no way to win. You don't seem satisfied with anything I do to try giving this interesting subject more exposure on the show. Half the RFN crew requested, just last night, that we never talk about Smash Bros ever again. That's how fucking fed up they are with all this. But I'm not going to censor out the year's biggest release just because a few people get crazy upset whenever it comes up.


Hear hear!


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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #38 on: July 10, 2014, 01:14:20 PM »
I'm fine with him (although I still say Gui needs to step it up a bit) but others aren't so I'm trying to play troubleshooting and failing at it.
I would agree with you, but honestly, I've notice Gui being a lot more assertive and taking more discussion time during the listener mail segments, so I think he's getting to a place where his presence is more known.
Lindemann though.....I don't recall hearing too much out of him lately, but it doesn't help when you never play any games.
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #39 on: July 10, 2014, 01:52:44 PM »
You'll hear a lot from Jon on 390, talking about a very popular Nintendo game!
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Offline lolmonade

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #40 on: July 10, 2014, 01:59:39 PM »
You'll hear a lot from Jon on 390, talking about a very popular Nintendo game!

.....It isn't Super Mario Bros 3 again, is it?
Was it made after 1990?
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Offline Pandareus

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #41 on: July 10, 2014, 02:00:32 PM »
I try to talk more. I do! But sometimes I shut up and the reason varies.

  • Sometimes I literally don't have anything to add.
  • These guys know (or seem to know) more about business, marketing, etc., so you'll hear me just ask questions.
  • Sometimes I'm looking at the time, hoping we'll move on to the next topic or game, and I don't add what I want to say because I don't want the segment I'll ultimately have to edit end up being too long.

Offline happyastoria

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #42 on: July 10, 2014, 02:06:40 PM »
This is definitely the beginning of the end. Remember when Metts expressed his hated for the anime art style and everyone bashed him because of it? Notice how he suddenly enjoys it/doesn't have any critiques. Psh!

Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #43 on: July 10, 2014, 02:10:42 PM »
You've got that story all kinds of wrong. I watched DBZ for years in high school before NWR even existed.
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Offline happyastoria

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #44 on: July 10, 2014, 02:19:18 PM »
Oh please, everyone - including people who hate anime - watched DBZ as a kid. I used to think G.I Joe the animated series was good. It means nothing. Shall I bring up what you said about Fragile Dreams? Hmmmm.

Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #45 on: July 10, 2014, 02:39:32 PM »
Holy jeez this thread blew up in the past few days.

Jonny's a great host. He has a very decisive and authoritative personality, which makes him better suited to hosting than any of the other members. However, since he says everything so matter-of-factly, it can rub people the wrong way if he says something they disagree with.

Quote
Jonny even chimed in with (paraphrase) "the Classic Controller Pro is better in nearly every way", without highlighting the obvious benefits that the GCN controller has over the CCP, or any other controller that Nintendo has made since the Gamecube.

Like this. Also, when Jonny's passionate about something, his tone tends to take on a lecturing, perhaps even condescending quality. As a long time listener of this show who has marathoned far too many episodes consecutively, these qualities do tend to grate on me and I find myself getting annoyed with Jonny more than anyone else on the show.

THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT I HATE JONNY, NOR DO I THINK HE SHOULD CHANGE THE WAY HE CONDUCTS HIMSELF ON THE SHOW. I like hearing Jonny's opinions a lot, and we have similar taste in games so I value that perspective on the show. Even (or perhaps especially) if we disagree on a certain topic, I enjoy hearing an opposing view because it forces me to really think critically about my position and either reconsider it or deeply analyze and be able to argue for my belief. I think the fact that his mannerisms get me so riled up is actually kinda awesome. His passion inspires me to be passionate as well.

Gotta disagree regarding Gui as well. I've been relistening to older episodes recently and I think that Gui settled into place in the early 300s and has been contributing meaningfully and regularly to the discussion for nearly 2 years now.

**** the haters. Just keep doin' whatcha doin'. In my opinion, you guys are going strong and are producing episodes that are just as good or better than ever before. If people are getting fatigued of the show, they should take a break. I for one don't want RFN to change any time soon.

Offline NWR_Lindy

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #46 on: July 10, 2014, 03:02:11 PM »
I always get lumped in as a "Smash Tournament Hater" yet I've never said anything negative (to my recollection) about playing the game that way.  Mind you, I haven't argued with James vehemently because I really have no dog in the fight (I like Smash but I'm merely a casual fan).

If I don't say much, it's because I don't have the game being discussed.  If I don't have Shovel Knight, I don't have much to say about Shovel Knight.  I think that makes sense. I'm probably more specific in my tastes in terms of what Nintendo puts out vs. the other guys on the show, so I don't jump on every single thing released on the eShop from week to week, for example.  I'm probably the most "Nontendo" guy on the show but I think I do bring a little bit of balance in terms of having some knowledge of genres the other guys may only have cursory knowledge of or interest in (MMOs, FPSes, etc.).
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Offline Jonnyboy117

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #47 on: July 10, 2014, 03:34:47 PM »
Text message I sent to a friend recently:

"Past couple years I've realized that people see me as professorial no matter what I do, and I might as well use it. Hopefully don't come across as a know it all most of the time"
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Offline fenrir_VII

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #48 on: July 10, 2014, 04:08:26 PM »
@Lindemann and @[size=1.125em]Guillaume: None of my Smash comments at all are directed towards you, because honestly you've never said anything that wasn't understandable on the subject. Sorry if I was unclear on that. You guys are awesome. Keep trucking. [/size][/color]

[size=1.125em]@Jonny, I want to take a step back and apologize. I'm not just trying to be frustrating here. I understand what you have done and continue to do with the show, and I honestly appreciate it. I was a bit harsh early on and I understand/apologize for that, but I do feel like there's another side to the debate that has never truly been aired on the show... so in the context of all episodes on the subject, regardless of your attempt, the overarching sentiment that gets conveyed is A) 1 guy bashes a scene B) 3 guys maybe disagree maybe don't, but don't get too involved because they don't want to just argue. All of that is understandable. I do have an issue with you/James both essentially lumping the GCN controller hype into 'well that's what smasher's are used to so "it feels good to be pandered to"' when nearly everybody would have been happy with a wired WiiU Pro controller.. but I'm willing to chalk that up to a disagreement. [/size][/color]
[size=1.125em]Regarding your last comment... a couple things stood out. Bringing up tournament Smash to eventually have it shut down/crapped on every.single.time. is not going to be a "win". Ignoring that Smash Bros is a game is not going to be a "win" (as you said). I think the real "win" that you're looking for would be to bring somebody on the show that IS a part of the tournament scene to have a 10-20 minute discussion on the series as a whole on the reasoning for tournament play / rulesets / character choices, etc AND wrap it up with a "here's what to expect from Smash 4 from a competitive mindset" discussion. I truly think this would be an interesting way to present the other side of the discussion, and at least some fans might be interested in learning how they can get involved early on, etc. I definitely think there are a huge number of fans who play the game only casually... and that's great. The games are great for that... BUT there are also a huge number of fans who DO care about the tournament scene, especially since the Melee Documentary. I understand reasons for not doing this, but I would ask you to give another voice on the topic before shutting it down completely. Again, I apologize for any frustration caused. [/size][/color]

[size=1.125em]@James (if you're out there): To preface all of this, I actually agree with your comments on most other games and generally enjoy your segments on the show. Regarding Smash, I understand that you're trolling. You might actually believe your statements, and honestly, it's cool if you do. The problem is... you come off as telling people "customizing the game in this way is bad and not fun. You should ONLY customize it in THIS way!" There are competitive players that would probably say something similar to casuals.... but imo nobody should dictate that. If you have fun on FFA with all items on Very High... that's great. So do I. But there are people who have dedicated amazing amounts of time and money to keeping the games alive as a fair/competitive game (which they CAN be), and calling those people "terrible" is, frankly, offensive and stupid. Whether or not you agree with the scene, I don't see your point here in calling them down for playing the game in this way... "can't we all just get along?"[/size][/color]

Offline pokepal148

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Re: Episode 389: Best Practices
« Reply #49 on: July 10, 2014, 05:11:05 PM »
in fairness there has been interest in introducing items to a competitive setting in some form.

It just hasn't taken off
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