Topic: Wind Waker is SOOOOOO Blurry!!!!!!

[Ninja X]

Joker, want to hear a simple little solution that'll save your eyes?

Play on a smaller TV.

[thecubedcanuck]

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Not once did I notce this "blurring." I truthfully think this topic was started by another little "hater" with nothing to do but bash Nintendo.

Please, it is as blurry as hell.

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Serisoulsy, I am totally sick of all of these "my gamecube/gba is broke" or "somethings wrong with my game" topics. Most of the time all of these complaints are made by people who dont even own the game or system they are complaining about

LMAO, oh the conspiracy. Gimme a break.

[Cube323]

Canuk you must be blind, seriously.  Im sorry to say it.  Plus no one's saying theres a conspiracy.  It's just no-life 10 year olds who get their pleasures by bashing rival systems and/or games that most of the time, they don't even own!

Open your freakin eyes.  This happens in all web forums.  Unfortunately, it seems that if you are a Nintendo fan, you have to put up with this $H*T the most.  Why?  Because $ony fans often act like nazi's and they feel the need to spread their hatred everywhere.  

More personal attacks edited out.  Be civil or don't post. - Jonny

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

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Originally posted by: Grey Ninja
since the game is supposed to be like an interactive cartoon, and cartoons are known for crisp lines.

You forgot to mention that backgrounds in cartoons tend not to be nearly as detailed and sharp as the characters themselves, to shift emphasis to the character and make them stand out.  Backgrounds are rarely given the same amount of outlining detail as foreground characters/objects, otherwise you would lose the sense of distance and depth.

Wind Waker's depth blurring is justified, but was way overdone on Outset Island, hence the bitching.  It used to bother me too, until I left the island.

[Oz_joker]

To those immature morons who have bitched about my point of view - grow up.

I, if anybody, is a Nintendo fan. My bedroom is loaded with all types of Nintendo icons, and my idol is Shiggsy.

However, I, unlike some of you, am not biased, and will freely speak my mind, good or bad, about any topic.

I, of all people, do not appreciate being called a "system basher", the definition of which is utterly ludicrous, and intend to report your crude comments to the board administrator.

Despite my user name, Oz_joker, I am not joking, as these are issues with the game that I am 100% serious about.

Many of you are Americans, believers of "Free Speech". You should be ashamed of yourselves.

In addition, replies from others to my thread have confirmed my observations while playing the game.

The fact is, objects a mile from Link should blur, but not objects 10 feet - 1 mile, that's simply rediculous. Yes, I will concede that this blurring does not occur in the dungeons, only outside, but the dungeons probably only represent less than 5% of the game.

[Cube323]

Im not backing down from any of my statements.  I've played the game twice and I still don't see what you are talking about.  Im starting to wonder if you have a bad connection or even, a bad TV.  Also is your GameCube hooked up w/ a co-axial cable?  They suck you know, and they will seriously hamper your games picture quality.  Still, it shouldn't be as bad as you describe. Unfortunately, todays games are meant to be played with at least a component connection (the yellow, white, red plugs.)  I have an SVHS connection and its really nice.  Not as nice as a Composite connection (even more colored plugs.)

Finally, I dont mean to seem hostile, its nothing personal I can assure you.  I am just sick of all of the bashers that come to this site in an attempt to bring everyone down.  Just search through the threads in this forums and you will see what I mean.  Idiots making foolish claims that really have no basis in reality.  10 years olds with nothing better to do than lie and complain about stuff they don't even own.  And ,believe it or not, actual Video Game Industry Publicisits (mainly from $ony) who monitor many of the popular web boards for their "market research."  It just drives me insane.

Seriously, I think if you have a problem, return the game and quit bitching about it.  Theres no reason to come here and whine.

[AngusPodgorny]

I'll provide a dissenting opinion here and agree with the thread starter.  I think they overdid it with the blur effects.  Also, those vertical lines are horrible if you have a large TV.  It detracts from the game.

I could also make other complaints, mainly regarding visual artifacts that are only visible when running in progressive scan mode.  It's disappointing that they have these problems; it's 2003 after all.

It's still a great game, gameplay-wise.

-Angus

[Polyethylene]

Oh come on! one of the best things about the game are the graphics. Everytime i play it i feel how perfectly they fit in the Zelda world. If you say you don't like the graphics i can believe you but if you say that the game is hard to play just because the graphics then you're beeing too fussy. And it's not just me, no all the reviews gave it a 10 in graphics but no one gave it  less than a 9.  

[Raising_Hell]

 Ha, this is a nice topic, I never though anyone would complain about this.

Well as is has been said, the blurring is used to simulate depth of field, a focal effect, like when a camera focuses on something close to it, then the background gets blurry. I really found this addition to be great, I don't know why it would bother anyone. They used this to make the objects and characters in the foreground to look more realistic when viewed against a background with a great distance. If you've ever tried any 3d software just using a slight focal effect instantly makes the image more realistic, makes the object pop out. It happens in WW too. Try bringing the camera to a nice side view close to the boat when you travel and you'll notice that the whole scene looks as if Link and the boat are almost plastic models you can reach out and catch. Neat. But still, this effect is only noticable when travelling at sea, and it's nice to look at while you wait to get to your destination.

So, it's not your TV's not the color, maybe the sharpness will fix things abit but it's not there to make the game run faster or make the Cube draw the world in a greater distance, quite the contrary this effect takes more to do. You see, this effect take the rendered image, uses the z-buffer information of each pixel to find out how far from the camera the pixel is and if it's farther than a given distance it get's blurred, and depending on what way they used, it's either done after the rendering or while the image is being rendered. Either way it steals power but it's nice to have it in there. Maybe next time they'll add some "director AI" and let the camera focus automatically and make nice dramatic shots here and there.

Ah, all you youngsters have gotten all used to all this 3d photoreal dolby surround nonsense, try playing 2 colored, low res, 2 frames per animation style games, that ought to make you appreciate good games, hehe. Sorry, that was my Cranky Kong outburst.

[Termin8Anakin]

I like how they did the figurines in the Nintendo Gallery.
They really do look 3D!
Are they? Or aren't they?

[Grey Ninja]

Yes, Termin8, everything in the game is 3D.

Anyways, I have to agree with the thread starter that there IS a noticable blur.  I will not agree with people like Cubed Canuck though in that it's a sign of Nintendo's failure as a game company, or whatever else he was spouting off.

I have just started a new game yesterday, and I do notice the blurring, and I can imagine it would be a lot more noticable on a big TV, but I still don't see the problem with it.  It's not like you can't see what's going on, and it's not like it looks terrible.  It just provides another layer to the game.

And yes, speaking as a coder, I will back up what Raising_Hell said.  Nintendo is doing some sort of fancy framebuffer effect, and it is taking time to do it.  It's not to ease the workload any.  They could have just as easily swapped out the models for distant objects.  (which I suspect that they might have done anyways)

[TheYoungerPlumber]

OK, OK, simmer down, guys!  Please don't throw insults at one another--it only ruins one's own credibility.  If someone is really bothered by a filter when most aren't, it doesn't make that individual a bad person.  Would you call someone a moron for having an epileptic seizure while watching TV or playing a game?  Maybe some of you would, which is a damn shame.

Yes, there is blurring in the game, but it is more prominent in certain areas.  And I've played the game in progressive scan (VGA cable) and S-Video.  I agree that they could have toned the effect down a little (it was too high in Mario Sunshine as well), but I got used to it.  I'm glad to hear I'm not the only one seeing those strange vertical lines!  Those things DO drive me crazy.

[SilverBack1138]

I disagree with you.  I think Nintendo still has great quality stuff.  I've never had a problem with anything I bought of Nintendo's.

[The Omen]

I noticed the blurring effect right away, but i figured it was done purposely to be realistic.  I never thought twice about it, and Wind Waker is one hell of a great game.  

As for Nintendo products declining quality, i have to disagree.  Every year, my favorite games are from Nintendo, and i play a lot of games on a lot of systems and PC.  People need to stop worrying so much about graphics, and play the freaking game.  Zeldas graphics are mostly incredible, animation is great.  You kids would have committed suicide playing the Atari 2600, Colecovision or even the trusty old NES if all you cared about was graphics.  And if you owned those systems,( like Cubed Canuck has) then you realize that we've been spoiled in a lot of ways because the improvments in visual quality have been done in a very short time.  Go play your old SNES or Genesis, and see how much improvement there has been in just 10 years.  

Bottom line, play the game, enjoy it.  Or throw it out your window and never play it again, just stop bitching non-stop...especially about a game of the year candidate.

[Pale]

I throw my hand up for one pro-blur effect vote.  But where exactly are these vertical lines you speak of?  On the open sea or in a particular level?  I'm not financially fortunate enough to play it in progressive so I didn't see any, but on the same hand, I follow the whole home theater thing quite a bit and this sounds like a curious anomoly.  

It seems obvious that the opinions on the blurring seem to strictly follow those who have progressive capabilities and those who don't.  Maybe it does look extremely funky on a progressive tv and nintendo didn't design it for that because that is such a small percentage of the population.  Who knows, new effects like that have to go through trial and error before they can be perfected.

[Oz_joker]

If nobody acknowledges faults, how is a company (or person's) work suppose to improve? Should nobody raise issues, and pretend that everything is perfect in the world, nobody would seek improvement.

I believe that there are two types of critisism, positive and negative.

Positive is about raising an issue, with the intention that, in the future, the problem will be corrected for the better. Then there is negative critisism, bitching for no reason but to degrade a person /company.

If your English teacher tells you that he/she would prefer it if you re-structured a sentence, do you verbally assualt them? No!It's called positive critisism. There's a problem, that you think should be corrected to better the overall quality of a collective piece of work.

My issues with the game are not imaginary - others have noticed the intense blurring and strange, faint vertical lines as well.

Other than these distractions, the game is great.

Assuming the effect is intentional and not a result of technical limitations, maybe Nintendo should include a depth of field blurring option in future titles? Those strange, faint vertical lines still a concern though!

I encourage all to raise positive and negative issues regarding Nintendo hardware and software. Don't feel obliged to only post pro-Nintendo threads, fearing that any negative  connotations with the big N will result in a quick death. Reality is not based on a Brady Bunch framework - there are positive and negative things in all aspects of like - including games!

                                                                                                                                                       'LaTeR!  

[Termin8Anakin]

It IS something that can be improved, but geez, it's not that bad.
Is it your eyesite or something? And what vertical lines?
I acknowledge the blur, but vertical lines?

[NinGurl69 *huggles]

He's referring to the color dithering patterns visible in flat shaded areas like the ocean waters, especially noticeable during sunrise and sunset where the color tones of the waters go through rapid transitions.  Why does dither occur?  Cuz the game is processing more color information than the hardware's color palette conveniently allows.

[Mario]

Hey, i like all that blurriness in Wind Waker, it adds style to the game, it looks good IMO. But in the first dungeun, the fire one, its a bit overused i think.

[Termin8Anakin]

colour dithering?
limitied colours?

My eyes see not these things.

[AngusPodgorny]

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Originally posted by: Professional 666
He's referring to the color dithering patterns visible in flat shaded areas like the ocean waters, especially noticeable during sunrise and sunset where the color tones of the waters go through rapid transitions.  Why does dither occur?  Cuz the game is processing more color information than the hardware's color palette conveniently allows.

That sounds like a reasonable explanation.  However, dithering usually results in color banding.  I've never seen dithering produce regularly spaced vertical lines over the whole screen, as are present in WindWaker (and only WindWaker).  They're pretty much visible all the time on my TV.  

For those of you who haven't seen the lines, imagine looking at the game through the bars of a jail cell, where the "bars" are lighter-colored than the area in between them.

Someone mentioned that Nintendo might not be too concerned about progressive scan users, since they represent such a small percentage of the game-buying public.  I agree with this.  Many games have problems when running in p-scan mode.  Example: FMV sequences often appear very blocky, possibly because they're designed for display on an interlaced device, and they're using some type of upscan algorithm.  Didn't all Dreamcast games support VGA resolution?  How many years ago?  Then they get ported to gamecube and progressive scan support is removed.  It doesn't really add up.

Nintendo makes great games; let there be no confusion.  I think they're just perhaps a little too reluctant to fully embrace new technology.

-Angus

EDIT:  Apparently, I think faster than I type, which causes me to skip words that are essential in understanding the sentence.

   

[StRaNgE]

term, the lines are there, faint but there. i did not really notice them  till after i looked for them specifically from reading about them here.


but the real question now is for cube, who has sworn to have played through the game twice and still has not noticed an effect that is on every single copy of wind waker but his.  how rare his disk must be with no blur effect upon it. hold onto that you have a collectors item on your hands, what were the odds that cube would get the only disk made without that effect.  

[Oz_joker]

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Originally posted by: AngusPodgorny

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Originally posted by: Professional 666

Someone mentioned that Nintendo might not be too concerned about progressive scan users, since they represent such a small percentage of the game-buying public.  I agree with this.  Many games have problems when running in p-scan mode.  Example: FMV sequences often appear very blocky, possibly because they're designed for display on an interlaced device, and they're using some type of upscan algorithm.  Didn't all Dreamcast games support VGA resolution?  How many years ago?  Then they get ported to gamecube and progressive scan support is removed.  It doesn't really add up.

-Angus

But Nintendo has gone out of it's way to include Progressive scan support in it's games,  so surely these vertical lines aren't a result of poor Pro-Scan support - Nintendo must have been aware of their presence in the game.

I've played MANY games on my television, cell-shaded and non-cell-shaded, but this is the only game that seems to suffer from this problem. Very strange.

[NeoShaggy]

I'm glad not to be the only one with the vertical lines issue, I just bought a new Sony Wega and get mad when I saw them, but I was very confused to only see them in Wind Waker.

I'm trying to find a good video config to reduce the effect, If someone has found a good one, please post it.

[TheYoungerPlumber]

The faint vertical lines (most easily seen in the sky during sunrise/sunset) are visible in both Progressive and Interlaced mode.  They probably aren't visible with a composite video cable, but they are very noticeable with my S-video cable.  Progressive vs Interlaced shouldn't even be a part of this discussion.