Topic: How to solve Nintendos 3rd party problem...

[toddra]

Sorry for long rant, how do you delete a post?

[toddra]

Alright I decided to reorganize my thoughts and try again. What I was getting at is this,


Nintendo should just make a cheap system, not too out of date but not current, something like halfway between last and next gen, keep the price down to $150ish at launch and make the best games they can and forget 3rd parties they can go it alone if they keep the price down to a reasonable second console market and that way everybody wins. That was the gist of my post but I was all over the place, so what does everybody else think? Then they can still attract the types of 3rd party games that sell on their system and not even worry about the stuff that doesn't because as an affordable second console Nintendo could be successful ever generation.

[Wah]

Hey listen! toddra third partie games are not that bad, also welcome to Nintendo world report hope you stay!
~psst~ watch outfor pokepal!

[magicpixie]

I think that should have been their strategy for the Wii.  By keeping their investment cost low on that console, they could have positioned themselves strong to release a console this gen that was at least on par with the competition.  As I see it, that is the biggest hurdle to attracting devs to their system.

I think Nintendo still do not see themselves as being in the same market as Sony and MS, and as such, feel as though they need to differentiate themselves through their hardware.  The Wii U, at $350 could be a significantly more powerful device if the gamepad didn't exist.  The gamble there is, if the Wii U is equal to MS and Sony's consoles, does that mean people will buy it?  Does that mean devs will develop for it?  GameCube says no.  3DS kind of says no, but for the opposite reason(weaker hardware, better support than Vita).  MS said they are pouring one billion dollars into game development for the Xbone, I don't know if/how Nintendo can compete with that.

I think the Wii U's lack of support from Nintendo stems from the weak 3DS launch which forced Nintendo to pour resources into 3DS development.  Now, they are left scrambling to support a second platform, almost entirely on their own.  There's a bit of the whole "chicken or the egg" debate when it comes to Nintendo's troubles.  Ultimately, I think they need to lower the price of the console before Christmas significantly($50+), as the perceived value just isn't there right now.  Things will get better for Nintendo if they can get their install numbers up, because they know there is a market for their games(again, gamepad cost is probably killing them right now, since they still claim to be taking a loss on each unit).

It's a difficult situation to be in.  I think weathering this gen will be vital for Nintendo to be able to rebound in the next 4-5 years(they might think so too, considering their reluctance to drop the price), but this time, they will have to actually learn something from their past failures, not just say they did.

[toddra]

It's the same thing that has been going on for years, the problem is, the chicken and the egg things doesn't really apply to Nintendo Gamecube had a good outing and then support dropped off not because of sales, it sold better than Xbox by the way, it was because they had gimped hardware, smaller capacity discs for one, no online support, too much attention to connectivity that not enough people were into. Then along comes Wii, a massive sales success but 3rd parties still snub it. Why? Because their games just do not sell on Nintendo consoles, at least not the same ones that sell on PS/PC/Xbox and that is the problem I think, they are chasing a crowed that frankly has moved on. What they need to do is reinvent themselves and I think going cheap on hardware and putting everything into game development and making ONE damn controller for the console might go a long way.

[Ian Sane]

Having to buy two consoles to get a decent game selection out of a Nintendo console is "everybody wins"?  I had to do that with the Wii gen and it sucked!  I find Nintendo's stubborn refusal to adhere to the industry conventions and standards that the buying public steers it towards very annoying and if they can squeak by being a half-assed "second console" then that will never change.  I want Nintendo to feel that they have to cut it as one's sole console.  No one else makes videogame systems under the assumption that the buyer will have another console to make up for their product's flaws.  The very idea, to me, seems like intentionally making a lousy product.  Either make a console that cuts the mustard on its own or don't make one at all.

[Silenced]

Companies seem to have problems with lowering prices. If a product isn't selling because nobody wants its content, that means it will never get good sales at its current price. Sports teams are guilty of this. When fans believe they're not getting their money's worth out of a team, they stop coming. Yet the tickets do not change price.
 
I think a big problem is that people are being raised in this Nintendo slump, and XBOX and PlayStation are more household names. It's common to associate Nintendo with Mario, and Mario is then associated with 'kiddie games'. Let's face it: they use their champion mascot all too much, and the games begin to lose their charm.
 
It's a more mature audience now, and the big roadblock the Wii ran into was that it was built as a casual gaming console during a time when a very large portion of the video-gaming audience didn't go in that direction. Though the motion controls were impressive, they were faulty, and since they failed to claim the technology, MC and Sony swooped in and started working on motion controls as well.
 
The Wii U, in effect, suffers from a combination of these problems, and when a console isn't doing good, who's going to invest in it? Nintendo's going to have to lower the price to try and get sales back up, and start shipping out some appealing games. Not doing both of those will sink this console's ship, and it'll be back to the drawing board for a new idea.

[NWR_insanolord]

As much as some people might not like it, I think the "second console" strategy is what best suits Nintendo at this point. Unless they have a change of heart and become willing to take a significant loss on hardware chasing specs isn't going to be viable for them, and that seems like the only way they could get third parties on board.

[toddra]

The problem is that Nintendo doesn't get it, they think people will buy their systems just because it has their name on it and that companies should just make games because it exists. I agree the third party situation sucks but the reality is Nintendo is not competent enough to fix it, if they were this would not be their fourth console in a row with this problem. The reality is at this point Nintendo has had more systems that survived in their software than not. At this point they have already gotten it in their heads they can do no wrong. Listen to Iwata as he says price is not an issue because the cheaper model doesn't sell, instead of thinking maybe it's just because the cheaper model isn't worth the price of entry? He thinks it will be just like 3DS except they are NOT using the same strategy as 3DS, there they did drop the price aggressively as well as dump resources into games. Now they make excuse after excuse and go to any website that is not devoted to Nintendo and they get nothing but hate from all parties.


I don't think Nintendo can ever turn things around period but they can survive as a single console entity. If they made their machine cheap enough and their games at high quality they could at least survive on that, maybe it sucks if you also want the bigger expensive games but there are still large numbers of people that do want the Nintendo games but don't think that a Nintendo console is worth full price just for those games, it is not the best solution but I think it could work better than their ignoring the problem and then blaming it on something unrelated like poor marketing or confusion in the market place.

They blew it with Wii U period, they are not going to win back the core crowd, not even if Ms totally blows it. They might get decent sales numbers and Nintendo games will sell well as usual but third party games are just not going to sell on a Nintendo console because the majority of people who want those games don't have any use for Nintendo and the majority of people who want Nintendo games tend to prefer Nintendo games.

I liken it to Politics, Nintendo is the third party and they are scrambling to get votes, instead of chasing after the other guys they should find the best solution to meet in the middle. I don't think Nintendo is ever going to recover because they don't get it they have lost their way and there is no evidence that they are even trying to correct their mistakes, in fact all the evidence suggest the opposite, that they are ignorant to there even being a problem.

[NWR_insanolord]

It's crazy to say that Nintendo is ignorant to there being a problem. Unless you don't understand that Nintendo isn't always 100% truthful about what they're doing and what their motivations are and assume they really believe what they're saying in their PR, I'm not sure why you'd think that.

Nintendo says they don't think price is the problem because they don't want to lower the price, which is due to them still losing money at the current price, and they don't think lowering the price will make a big enough difference this fall to be worth the drawbacks. The real reason for not dropping the price doesn't sound as good as what they said.

Nintendo isn't capable of changing on a dime and fixing everything immediately. No company is. I don't doubt that they're taking this situation very seriously internally and taking steps to address the problems, but there was never a way to do that this fall unless they knew this was coming prior to launch.

[Silenced]

I know they can't, apology for not making that clear. It will be a process. I too believe that, as any somewhat-intelligent company would do, they are attempting to fix the problem. The main issue is wondering if they are capable of completing this process and gaining third party support. This won't happen until they show strong gaming titles, and probably a stronger console to begin with.

[toddra]

I think they know there is a problem but they are ignorant to what the problem is. Even Nintendo fans can't agree on what the problem is so maybe I did over react.


I just don't think their franchises alone can turn things around, even in the NES days and SNES days they had strong support from Capcom, Konami, and Square, three companies that seem to ignore them this gen. Throwing them a port of a last gen game is not support that is just cashing in to make a quick buck. They needed to show the world they can make a system as compelling as the big boys and instead they decided to once again try to reinvent the wheel when they already had a perfectly good thing going in that department. I bought a Wii at launch despite it looking odd and being underpowered, I didn't care because it had unique and compelling game experiences. After a while those began to wear off and before you know it the system was stating to feel like Gamecube all over again only they just didn't even try.



I wanted to get a Wii U at launch but its just not gotten me sold this time. At the current price and as a full on competitor to Sony and MS it's not looking too hot right now. But at a more affordable price it would look better as a second console or as a budget machine. That worked out okay for the Gamecube if you recall before the price cut they had to STOP production to clear out inventory because sales dropped off, retailers and publishers are dropping the Wii U like flies, things are bad, worse than most people are admitting and Nintendo has not shown that they understand that they keep saying their strategy worked with the 3DS so it will work with the Wii U, but it is not the same strategy at all it is similar but not the same.



Maybe a SKU with out the gamepad might be in their best interest, a barebones unit with just the remote and nunchuck and a game that doesn't require the pad but still uses it if you have it. Make the pad optional for those who just don't get it and then push it as a premium gadget that might take off down the road. I don't know maybe I am just tired of getting my hopes up only to see them fizzle out, maybe Nintendo just hasn't done enough to win me back and I don't think they care enough. Maybe they should go handheld only and just exit the console race entirely.


I, like most people are waiting to see how this holiday pans out, but I think this could be too little too late. Sure they are losing money on the hardware but not on the console on the gamepad.

[NWR_insanolord]

A SKU without the GamePad doesn't make any sense. For better or worse, Nintendo built the system around it, and removing it would cause a lot more problems than it would solve. The price will come down once the cost of the components comes down, probably sometime next year.

The main problem, as I see it, is a lack of software, which is beginning to change, but not quickly enough. I think part of that is due to their massive push to create 3DS software after its slow launch, which may have reduced the amount of resources available to Wii U development. I have no doubt that there is a lot of Wii U development within Nintendo right now that they, for whatever reason, haven't seen fit to share with us. Nintendo's tendency to wait until fairly close to release to show games gives the impression that there isn't much there, which they really need to address right now.

[Stogi]

Nintendo's problem is that they launched a half-ass product. Just like the Wii, what finally made it amazing (other than some top notch games) is the motion plus. It fulfilled the promise that we all thought we were going to receive when the system first launched.

The Wii U, however, did actually say that they can't have multi-tablet support, but that's the first thing people thought as soon as it was announced. Football games with secret plays, local multiplayer FPS with separate screens, hell even battleship. Maybe a Wii U2 will solve this problem and we'll finally see some awesome ideas come to light, but right now the tablet is simply ok and not great. That's a terrible proposition to make when it is what the entire console is based around.

[Oblivion]

Local multiplayer FPS do have separate screens. They did that at launch with Black Ops 2.


Have you used the controller? It isn't a "tablet controller" at all. It's a traditional controller with a touch screen on it. Their mistake wasn't the controller, it was the power of the system not being even close to the other two system to entice 3rd party developers. Again.




It seems to be popular around here to bitch about a system half of you don't even own.

[toddra]

Exactly Oblivion why there is a problem, why should be purchase  a system that is not meeting our needs? Did you just buying it because Nintendo told you to? I stopped doing that a while back I, like most people, just got fed up and we are holding out hope that it will get better, so far that ain't happening though. I am willing to give it some more time but I can't sit around and wait forever for games to materialize if they don't show up then that's that.

[Silenced]

There will always be a large population of gamers that will buy material just because of the brand name. Why do you think Call of Duty is always planned for success?

[NWR_insanolord]

I really don't think the lack of power is the problem. If that were the only reason they weren't supporting the Wii U then we'd be getting a ton of games this fall that were ported from the PS3 and 360, two platforms the Wii U would have no issue ports from.

Nintendo won't ever charge $500 for a game console, which they'd have to to put out something on the level of the PS4 and XB1 even without the GamePad. They're playing a different game from Microsoft and Sony, whether we like it or not.

[toddra]

and I used to be one of them, most of us are in fact that way. The thing is Call of Duty continues to give it's audience what they want, Nintendo on the other hand does not, they fix one thing but they break two others. I want to want  a Wii U, I wanted a Wii U but I have to consider the value, for what is currently available it's too much money, right now there are two games for it I would buy, when Wii launched I had five games on launch day and ten more buy the end of the summer, then things started to slow down. Wii U didn't even launch with five games I wanted. Nintendo blames it on developing in HD, well that is just a lame excuse. Nintendo fans blame it on 3Ds development also not a valid excuse because Nintendo has always had different teams working on their handheld games than their console games so there is no reason to believe that has changed unless Nintendo themselves says otherwise and so far they have not to my knowledge done that.


BUT as a budget console the Wii U would be more appealing because then people can still get some value out of Nintendo's better games and not worry so much about the missing 3rd party games. As a primary console it is NOT going to cut it because too many games have already been dumped and I am sorry but saying maybe next year they might get a year old port of a game everyone else will be playing this holiday is not going to cut  it anymore. Why should I get excited to play a game a year from now everyone else is playing already? Why should I buy a console on the hopes things might get better when the last three generations prove otherwise? If this was coming off just one failure it would be different but Nintendo has burned too many people too many times. It's not that we don't have brand loyalty I do, believe me that is why I still want a 3DS, because it at least has enough games to justify the cost.


So maybe next year games will start coming and then it will be worth it but what happens if this holiday does not go well and more companies drop support? What happens if this turns out to be Nintendo's Dreamcast what then? Buy it on the hopes it might someday be a valuable collectors item? I did that in the 90's with Marvel Comics and got burned royally on that so no thanks.

Nintendo should NOT have let it get to this point, they should have fixed this LAST GEN when they were on top! There is NO excuse for this. My proposal of them going it alone is because everyone would be better off if they went 3rd party but they won't do that so this is a compromise, keep ignoring third parties long enough and hey we get the picture Nintendo sells consoles to sell Nintendo games. Okay sure they make some of the best games ever, but they it's not like every game they make is worth buying. Plus there are tons of game genres they don't bother with. With Dreamcast when Sega lost EA it wasn't a huge deal because back then Sega Sports was actually better than EA anyways and the 2K games were pretty damn good. Nintendo got of the sports game a long time ago, and no Mario sports don't count if you like them fine but they don't do anything for most sports gamers that is for sure. Losing EA is a bad thing for Nintendo and I haven't seen any evidence that is being fixed.

This holiday will not fix things when the Nintendo gamers who also enjoy Madden or NBA Live find out those games won't be on the system they will wait for the price drop or like most people did with Dreamcast, the clearance sales. NOBODY should be waiting for the clearance sales this early in the game and that is what will happen if they do not fix this NOW. They blew it so how is waiting till next year going to fix this holiday? I mean Mario 3d world looks great but not $400 dollars great. I want Watch Dogs too and whatever next gen system I get that will be a day one for me, but right now me and a lot of other ex-Nintendo gamers are just hoping against hope they can turn things around and this time I would almost rather just buy a fucking Playstation and be done with it and pick up a Wii U on clearance next holiday.

[NWR_insanolord]

You act like Nintendo could just magically fix third party support if they just tried. Outside of outright paying for support, Nintendo can't really do much more than they have already done. The Wii U was designed to appeal to developers, and we saw a lot of that early on, but since then support has dried up.

This is about money. Third parties don't think they can make enough by supporting the Wii U to be worth it. You could argue that they haven't given it a fair enough chance, such as EA completely dropping support after releasing four games that, while quality titles, were released 3-6 months after they came out on other platforms, but they have seen a long history of poor sales on Nintendo platforms and have been quick to jump out.

Again, what could Nintendo do to fix that besides buying support? They worked with third parties to design the hardware, they've offered them help with development resources, but at the end of the day, the money's not good enough for them. How is that Nintendo's fault?

[Sarail]

I really think it's time for Nintendo to dig into that war chest of theirs, and start buying and/or building development teams to create games that appeal to each individual type of game(r). EA doesn't want to put their sports games on Wii U? Fine. Nintendo need to create several studios and bring back the Nintendo Sports branding of games. Time to get serious, but also give it that Nintendo flair of quality that would outshine any sports game EA could make.

Same goes for the third-person/first-person shooter crowd. Build a studio or two that specialises in that type of game environment, and get to work on designing games for that type of audience. This isn't rocket science. And Nintendo have the money to do it. It can be done - it's just going to require Nintendo Co., Ltd. swallowing a bit of pride in the process. Oh, and marketing. MARKET MARKET MARKET until your image with gamers changes positively. Shove it down their collective throats that Nintendo is about making games, not just games that everyone can play, but games FOR EVERYONE - individual games that appeal to each and every individual sect of gamer. If Nintendo truly want to become a company for all gamers, then it's time to get serious and DO IT.

Nintendo can earn their mind share back. It's just going to require a bit of hard work.

[toddra]

That is what I was saying Insanolord they lost 3rd party support and there is nothing they can do to get it back! That is why the need to drop the damn price and go it alone.


The lack of games is not the only thing that makes it look over priced. For fifty dollars more the PS4 will not only have a more robust library it will also have tons of other secondary features that the Wii U is lacking. If they console was say $100 cheaper than PS4 it might make a stronger argument but right not the value for the money is just not there. Sure Nintendo will have to take a loss for the short term, but they can afford it with their financials being what they are as well as 3ds sales to offset any losses they may incur. It won't bring 3rd parties back  but it might soften the blow for those of us on the fence.


Don't get me wrong I love Nintendo and I want them to succeed but I just can't find the same level of optimism I used to anymore things have just been this way too long. In the Gamecube days I would defend them to the death, I tried to defend the Wii but it was getting hard to do each passing month. With Wii u I just can't seem to justify the price for what you get. GameCube was $150 less than Wii U is now and it was selling better at the same point in time and facing much stiffer competition from the PS2.

[Ian Sane]

The second the Wii U was revealed to be about a PS360 equivalent using the same last gen hardware approach of the Wii it was screwed for third party support.  Yeah the third party support dried up a little quicker than I figured it would but there was no way that it was going to be even remotely healthy once the PS4 and XB1 came out and made the Wii U incompatible for multiplatform development.  Even if the Wii U got tons of PS360 ports this would last until next year at best when development for the old consoles would fade out.  Third parties feel they have to make multiplatform games and a console that doesn't allow that gets nothing.  The Wii U doesn't allow for this and third parties know it so they gave it a token effort to see if it was a big hit at launch and they could get a year or two out of it and it didn't sell well so they bailed.  The best case scenario was that they were going to do this next year instead of this one.  It was going to happen no matter what.  The Wii U doesn't fit with anyone's plans but Nintendo's and the weak little ports it got at launch were just third parties hedging their bets so they wouldn't miss out if Wii-mania hit again.

The Wii U either has to go it alone or be shitcanned and replaced with something that actually jives with industry conventions by Christmas 2014.  It is incapable of having good third party support.  It might as well be an Atari 2600 for the all the **** use it is for multiplatform development.  Of course anyone with the slightest familiarity with the videogame industry could see this a mile away but it doesn't surprise me that the company that didn't know HD games take more time and resources to make (hey Nintendo welcome to fuckin' 2006; do you guys literally work in a soundproof bubble?) would miss that.

The only way it will turn around is if the Wii U is so unbelievably successful that making Wii U exclusives is MORE lucrative than making multiplatform PS4/XB1/PC games.  So that would take what?  Being at least twice as successful as the Wii, maybe more?

[Silenced]

It's probably best to wait until that point, trying to salvage the Wii U. It's a little too early to throw it away entirely, but it is a good idea to start thinking about making an improved console if Nintendo is to keep up with the competition. I wanted to say this earlier, and the Wii experienced this problem too; the games being made for PS3 and XBOX360 are not designed for/don't work as well with Nintendo's software.
 
I appreciate the fact that they are trying to be creative and innovative, but, to put it plainly, it's not working.
 
It's possible to say more, but at this point I think we all know the solution to the problem, continued posting is just fancy-wording of the conclusion.

[MagicCow64]

Really doubt we're going to see a PS4 equivalent Nintendo console anytime soon. They're not going to bail on the WiiU for at least two years. You have to imagine they've got all the resources they can muster working on games for 2014 and 2015. If things are still this dire holiday 2014, then I could imagine them planning an early-ish 2016 obsolescence for a fall launch of a new device. But at that point, it would be nuts to release a graphics/feature parity console against the well-established PS4/XBone, and we'd probably be looking at the mythical hybrid console, essentially ceding the dedicated living room space. (Though there's always the chance that next gen fizzles compared to the current one. Who knows what happens in that universe.)