Topic: Final Wii U Controller to Use Traditional Analog Sticks?

[tendoboy1984]

How are Vita's analog nubs?

They're actually mini analog sticks, and they're terrible. Too small to use properly, and they feel too loose.

[Chozo Ghost]

A nub is no substitute for a full sized Wii.

[tendoboy1984]

A nub is no substitute for a full sized Wii.

Well, many men don't have full-sized Wii's... So they have to stick with what they've got.  :

[broodwars]

How are Vita's analog nubs?

The Vita's analog sticks are just that: analog sticks, as opposed to the PSP's sliding nub.  As for their quality, eh they're ok.  My biggest problem with them is that because the sticks are so small, there's very little play in them.  You don't have that fine degree of tilt to the sticks that you have in console analog sticks.  In my experience, though, it only took me about an hour or so to get used to them when I was playing Uncharted GA, and they work fine.

And you want to know what was wrong with the GameCube controller, Chozo?  How about the tiny Dpad Nintendo took from the GBA?  How about the oddly-shaped (kidney) X and Y buttons and the relatively huge A button (and I wasn't fond of the relatively tiny B button either), all laid out in a manner that was fine for Nintendo's own titles but problematic for 3rd parties?  How about that useless Z button that was placed too far up to be easily pressed, and it hurt your finger to do so because the button didn't have enough play in it?  Compared to the N64 and Wiimote controllers, yeah the GameCube's was quite an improvement. But that controller had its problems, just like the others.

And by the way, this

I strongly disagree with your statement that Nintendo should stop innovating with hardware

is not what I said.  I said "innovation for its own sake doesn't make it 'better'.  If there's a genuine innovation you can add to a controller, like the N64 analog stick, then you aren't just changing things for the sake of changing them.  You're improving the design.  Unfortunately, a lot of Nintendo's other hardware changes just feel like Nintendo being "different" because they wanted to be "different", not because they wanted to improve the design.  There's good reason Sony and Microsoft never stole the N64 or GameCube's controller designs in making their own controllers, and all they stole from the Wiimote was the concept of a motion controller: Nintendo's "innovations" did not result in a controller so good it became the new Industry Standard.

[Chozo Ghost]

Nintendo's "innovations" did not result in a controller so good it became the new Industry Standard.

Well, considering that the Dualshock is nothing more than the SNES controller with grips and a couple analog sticks slapped on, I think I would disagree...

But another thing to note is there is no industry standard for controllers anymore.  10 years ago the PS2 had 90% market share so the Dualshock could rightly be considered the industry standard, but Sony's market share has shrunk drastically since then and I don't know how much they have at this point, but they are in third place so they have less than a third of the total market share. Clearly 1/3 of the market can not be considered an industry standard.

Microsoft, Nintendo, and Sony all have competing controller designs, and unless one of them somehow manages to grab a near monopoly (very unlikely), or if they start blatantly copying each other then there is no way we are going to see a clear cut industry standard for controller design anytime soon. I suspect this upcoming generation will be a 3 way race with no clear cut winner and all three competitors having more or less around the same amount of market share. The point is there won't be an industry standard.

[therockandrollgamer]

I'm so excited with the movement of the big N this year. Today we get Mario Tennis and the purple 3DS with a great lineup on the way.


As for the Wii U controller I like the analogue fix; I think adjusting the right thumb moving from analogue stick down will be easy considering with the PS3 and Xbox we are moving from right analogue up (as far as thumb movement) will be easy.  That form of movement would be from buttons to analogue, etc.


It's a bit different. I assume there has to be shoulder buttons? That would be a must have for shooter games.

[MagicCow64]

I also hate the Dual Shock. I have big hands and they start cramping almost immediately. This is one of the reasons I would not consider getting a Sony Console, until they change the friggin' controller.

In general, though, the "standard" control set up for consoles has only been around since the PS2/Dreamcast. There's plenty of room for evolution and re-designs. The Dual Shock set up should be considered the Model-T of controllers. If anything the Wii U tablet screen might highlight the arbitrariness of the the current standard with customizable touch button layouts.

As far as Sony creating dual analogue sticks, this is technically true, but from what I recall most PS1 games didn't do much of anything with the second stick (much like most PS3 games don't do anything with the gyroscope). The PS1 couldn't really output 3D, and sprite-based FPSes were pretty much done. I am remembering this wrong? If not, the credit for actually utilizing the sticks should probably go to the Dreamcast.

[Mop it up]

Nintendo "innovating" their controller design is what's led to such "glorious" layout/button designs as the N64; GameCube; and Wiimote controllers.

I'm sure this is sarcasm, but I agree with it at face value. These three controllers are the best ones in existence as far as I'm concerned, and all better than Sony's effort.

That's kind of the problem with controllers though, there's no one design that can suit everyone. Ideally, each system would offer controllers of varying design so people can get the ones they like, but that may not ever be financially viable.

[Oblivion]

Did you just say that the N64 controller is one of the best in existance? Same with the Gamecube? I really hope you are blinded by nostalgia.

[NWR_insanolord]

The GameCube controller is fantastic, easily the most comfortable controller I've ever held and I never had any problems with the button layout, although I would admit the D-Pad is too small and the C-Stick is poorly designed. A cross between the CC Pro and the GC Controller would be the best controller ever. The N64 controller had an interesting layout, but having only one stick (and one of pretty poor quality) held it back. I can't think of a single game that the Dual Shock is ideal for.

[broodwars]

I can't think of a single game that the Dual Shock is ideal for.

The strength of the SNES/Dual Shock/Classic Controller Pro design, though, is that it's capable of handling about every gaming experience you can throw at it on a console, save Real-Time Strategy games.  That flexibility is what has made that general design (which the PS3; 360 use; and Wii Classic Controller all use, with some deviations) the accepted standard for traditional games today.  Considering it was Nintendo's design originally with the SNES, I have to raise my eyebrow a bit at how many people here criticize it.

EDIT: On the subject of the controller itself, I'm curious where your palms are supposed to rest with this design.  On the Classic Controller Pro or Dualshock, my palm rests over the front handle grips and the other half and fingers on the back grips.  If I'm understanding this layout correctly, though, with the Wii U your right palm would be largely resting right on top of the buttons while you're using the right stick.  That could be problematic.

[Oblivion]

The GameCube controller is fantastic, easily the most comfortable controller I've ever held and I never had any problems with the button layout, although I would admit the D-Pad is too small and the C-Stick is poorly designed. A cross between the CC Pro and the GC Controller would be the best controller ever. The N64 controller had an interesting layout, but having only one stick (and one of pretty poor quality) held it back. I can't think of a single game that the Dual Shock is ideal for.

You must have large hands.

[Mop it up]

A cross between the CC Pro and the GC Controller would be the best controller ever.

I agree about that. The D-pad and the C-stick design are my only problems with it, but even they were never much issue for me. Swap around the D-pad and left stick on the Classic Controller Pro, and give it the GameCube's shoulder buttons, and it'd be the best traditional controller. However, even that wouldn't compare to the Wiimote and Nunchuk, which is the most comfortable controller I have ever used largely due to its disconnected design.

The N64's stick is my favourite stick because it has more resistance than other sticks, which makes it easier for me to move it distances other than the full way. Or at least, it feels great until it grinds down from use, but applying a little ceramic grease prevents that from happening and keeps it working like new.

[NWR_insanolord]

I can't think of a single game that the Dual Shock is ideal for.

The strength of the SNES/Dual Shock/Classic Controller Pro design, though, is that it's capable of handling about every gaming experience you can throw at it on a console, save Real-Time Strategy games.  That flexibility is what has made that general design (which the PS3; 360 use; and Wii Classic Controller all use, with some deviations) the accepted standard for traditional games today.  Considering it was Nintendo's design originally with the SNES, I have to raise my eyebrow a bit at how many people here criticize it.

EDIT: On the subject of the controller itself, I'm curious where your palms are supposed to rest with this design.  On the Classic Controller Pro or Dualshock, my palm rests over the front handle grips and the other half and fingers on the back grips.  If I'm understanding this layout correctly, though, with the Wii U your right palm would be largely resting right on top of the buttons while you're using the right stick.  That could be problematic.

The NES controller was also Nintendo's design originally and I'd call anyone, even Nintendo, crazy for making it a main layout on a modern device. There's a reason companies that aren't Sony change their controller each generation, because they incorporate new ideas intended to make it better. I wouldn't even have a problem if they just made it more ergonomic and got rid of the awful slotted D-Pad (which is basically what Nintendo did when they made the Classic Controller Pro), and if they also moved the left analog to its proper position it would be a great layout, but Sony's content to stick with the one they made two decades ago.

The GameCube controller is fantastic, easily the most comfortable controller I've ever held and I never had any problems with the button layout, although I would admit the D-Pad is too small and the C-Stick is poorly designed. A cross between the CC Pro and the GC Controller would be the best controller ever. The N64 controller had an interesting layout, but having only one stick (and one of pretty poor quality) held it back. I can't think of a single game that the Dual Shock is ideal for.

You must have large hands.

Well you know what they say about that...

[Sarail]

EDIT: On the subject of the controller itself, I'm curious where your palms are supposed to rest with this design.  On the Classic Controller Pro or Dualshock, my palm rests over the front handle grips and the other half and fingers on the back grips.  If I'm understanding this layout correctly, though, with the Wii U your right palm would be largely resting right on top of the buttons while you're using the right stick.  That could be problematic.

Not at all.

And yes, that mock-up is correct in terms of length and height. The newly rounded corners will rest perfectly in the palms of your hands; and you'll have the ability to perfectly reach both sticks/D-pad and buttons/triggers perfectly. I'm stoked about this thing now. PLUS! It now has round "controller-like" handles on the backsides.


EDIT: Fixed image link.

[broodwars]

Something's wrong with your image link, Rachtman.

[MagicCow64]

However, even that wouldn't compare to the Wiimote and Nunchuk, which is the most comfortable controller I have ever used largely due to its disconnected design.

This isn't mentioned enough. The button layout on the Wiimote isn't ideal for some games, but being able to sit and hold your hands however you want is great. I will miss that.

[tendoboy1984]

Microsoft never stole the ... GameCube's controller designs in making their own controllers

They mainly copied the Dreamcast controller, but you can still see influences from the GameCube controller.





Also, the Dreamcast controller shows how an analog stick placed near the top edge of the controller works well.

[Sarail]

Yeah, it's not bad placement at all. My only beef with the Dreamcast controller was its god-awful underside design. I cringe holding that thing.

[broodwars]

Yeah, it's not bad placement at all. My only beef with the Dreamcast controller was its god-awful underside design. I cringe holding that thing.

My problem with the Dreamcast controller (especially after seeing a picture of it again to remind me) is that it was just so frickin' huge.  The few times I played a Dreamcast game in store demos, I always had trouble figuring out how to hold the damn thing.  How appropriate that that was the main complaint most people had about the original Xbox controller as well before the smaller redesign model.

And my chief problem with the stick positioning isn't really the left stick, but the right one.  Even the GameCube controller had the sense to have the right analog stick below the buttons where it belongs.

[tendoboy1984]

And my chief problem with the stick positioning isn't really the left stick, but the right one.  Even the GameCube controller had the sense to have the right analog stick below the buttons where it belongs.

Why is it such a big deal if the sticks are above or below the buttons? Having a more symmetrical design makes the controller look more appealing, at least to me. And for games that use the D-pad as a primary input method (2D platformers), the Classic Controller Pro and DualShock are perfect.

[broodwars]

And my chief problem with the stick positioning isn't really the left stick, but the right one.  Even the GameCube controller had the sense to have the right analog stick below the buttons where it belongs.

Why is it such a big deal if the sticks are above or below the buttons?

Because as I already stated, when the stick is above the buttons your thumb and part of your palm end up resting on the buttons while using the stick.  Even Rachtman's mock concept model image seems to show this.  It's kind of hard to tell from that angle.  When the stick is below the buttons, your hand remains largely on the controller casing where it belongs.  A stick being smaller than a wide formation of buttons, you can also easily angle your thumb away from the stick while using the buttons in that configuration as well.

I'll see for myself how the controller feels when the Wii U eventually hits GameStop or whatnot as a demo unit, but right now I just don't see this layout playing well with me.

[tendoboy1984]

And my chief problem with the stick positioning isn't really the left stick, but the right one.  Even the GameCube controller had the sense to have the right analog stick below the buttons where it belongs.

Why is it such a big deal if the sticks are above or below the buttons?

Because as I already stated, when the stick is above the buttons your thumb and part of your palm end up resting on the buttons while using the stick.  Even Rachtman's mock concept model image seems to show this.  It's kind of hard to tell from that angle.  When the stick is below the buttons, your hand remains largely on the controller casing where it belongs.  A stick being smaller than a wide formation of buttons, you can also easily angle your thumb away from the stick while using the buttons in that configuration as well.

I'll see for myself how the controller feels when the Wii U eventually hits GameStop or whatnot as a demo unit, but right now I just don't see this layout playing well with me.

So you'd prefer the DualShock setup where both sticks are below the buttons in a horizontal line?

[broodwars]

So you'd prefer the DualShock setup where both sticks are below the buttons in a horizontal line?

Or the GameCube/360 setup where the left analog stick is prominently placed upward in contrast to the lower right stick, yes.  Most of the games I play are based in 3D environments: RPGs, shooters, adventure games, etc.  I tend to be playing camera/aiming management a little more often than I need to use the buttons, so my right hand's natural position for most games is to sit on the right grip with my right thumb over the right stick, and then swap to using the buttons as necessary.  To that end, either of those 2 setups match my playing style better.  This setup seems designed for people who keep their thumbs over the buttons normally, and then swap over to the stick when necessary.

[Sarail]

And my chief problem with the stick positioning isn't really the left stick, but the right one.  Even the GameCube controller had the sense to have the right analog stick below the buttons where it belongs.

Why is it such a big deal if the sticks are above or below the buttons?

Because as I already stated, when the stick is above the buttons your thumb and part of your palm end up resting on the buttons while using the stick.  Even Rachtman's mock concept model image seems to show this.  It's kind of hard to tell from that angle.  When the stick is below the buttons, your hand remains largely on the controller casing where it belongs.  A stick being smaller than a wide formation of buttons, you can also easily angle your thumb away from the stick while using the buttons in that configuration as well.

I'll see for myself how the controller feels when the Wii U eventually hits GameStop or whatnot as a demo unit, but right now I just don't see this layout playing well with me.

Keep in mind, too, that the redesign has analog sticks that are lifted up above the buttons. The arch of your thumb as you're moving the stick around should keep it clear of even any chance of accidentally pressing one of the face buttons. Now, if it were still the slide pads from the original design, I could see this being a problem as they set lower in to the controller. Maybe that's another reason for the redesign? Who knows?... But we sure will find out in two weeks from now once we get tons of impressions from all of the e3 goers.